Heavy 9mm loads for carbine

impactco · October 19, 2009, 11:08 AM

I have a J&R Eng M80 carbine from the early 70's that will not cycle standard 9mm loads. The only ammo that has worked consistently is this stuff, of which I only have a few boxes remaining:

I ran some of this through a chrono. Out of the 16" barrel, I was getting about 1400 fps.

Anyone have any reference to a recipe for an equivalent load?

Info on the gun:

http://www.imfdb.org/index.php?title...80_Carbine.jpg

Thanks.

jsflagstad · October 19, 2009, 03:51 PM

What is the bullet design and weight?

Foxbat · October 19, 2009, 04:27 PM

First, get some 125 grain +P ammo to see if it cycles your gun.

If it does (and I suspect it will), then buy some +P brass and load it. But DO NOT mix regular brass with it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Case in point... I had many rounds loaded with 125 gr bullets, 4.9 grains of Universal Clay powder. It chrono'd at 1290fps out of Beretta 92, so I suspect it would even beat your 1400 number from a 16" barrel.

Problem was... most brass held it without any issues... except the WIN WB. These consistently ruptured. NO OTHER brand did.

Lot of "standard" 9mm brass will hold that pressure with no problem... the problem is figuring out which will not. For sure put the Winchester on that black list.

chris in va · October 19, 2009, 09:26 PM

4.9 Universal with a 125gr...now that's riding the edge! The Hodgdon site lists it as the max for that load. No wonder those cases split.

dreamweaver · October 19, 2009, 09:57 PM

winchester still makes the 9mm NATO round. that's what you need. reported to be 10% hotter than their regular 9mm.
usually some for sale in 500 rounds lots on GB.
runs great in colt AR too.

rc · October 19, 2009, 10:54 PM

7gr 800x, 8.8gr AA#7, 8.5grains of blue dot will all break 1400fps using 115grain bullets in a carbine. Please refer to manufacturer websites and work up to max loads. Other slow powders may work like power pistol but I don't have experience with those. Commercial 115 grain ammo is only good for about 1330fps+/- from a carbine. You can probably get 1500fps or more if you drop to 90 grain bullets. You cannot do what you want with typical faster powders like 231, Universal, red dot, etc. rc

Foxbat · October 20, 2009, 08:04 AM

I don't think he needs lighter bullets, as his goal is not velocity, but reliable operation. And usually you get that with heavier bullet, even at lower velocity.

impactco · October 20, 2009, 10:43 AM

All great advice guys. I have yet to pull one of the Winchester SMG rounds to see what the bullet weighs. I'm going to load some near max charge rounds with Power Pistol or Bullseye & 147g bullets and work up from there.

csmsss · October 20, 2009, 10:48 AM

I used to occasionally see surplus Spanish milsurp 9mm ammo intended for SMG's, but have not seen it for some time. It was, intentionally or not, loaded to a longer OAL than standard 9mm ammo and was appreciably hotter. I could not get it to feed reliably in the Ruger P85 I had at the time and so only bought a single box of it.

It was NOT marked as NATO and was probably WWII or earlier and most certainly corrosive.

impactco · October 26, 2009, 09:30 PM

I pulled apart one of the Winchester SMG rounds and it has a 115gr bullet with 5.7gr of an unknown flake powder.

Shoney · October 26, 2009, 09:59 PM

The only difference between regular brass and +P brass is that the head stamps are different. The brass is the same.

You might want to look at VV data for 3N38 powder.

jsflagstad · October 26, 2009, 10:47 PM

Is the powder possible Unique? What you listed would be a touch over the Lee book max under a 115grn if it is Unique.

impactco · October 26, 2009, 11:28 PM

This ammo was loaded in the '60s. Who knows what powder they used.

rc · October 28, 2009, 10:49 AM

Power pistol should work good but I think you would be best with 115 or 124 grain FMJ for this as they will shoot closest to your sights. Duplicating the original factory load should be easy. Keep length the same, use a small rifle primer to decrease sensitivity and reduce risk of piercing a primer from heavy firing pin strikes. Then work up to the velocity you want using a chronograph and slower powder. Bullseye is too fast to get the velocity even with light bullets at safe pressure. rc

impactco · October 28, 2009, 10:04 PM

I loaded up 5 each of the following with Power Pistol, Speer 124g TMJ, Winchester 1x brass and Federal SP primers at 1.155" OAL:

5.7gr
5.9gr
6.1gr
6.3gr
6.5gr

I'll run them through the chrono with the carbine in a few weeks and see what I get. Hopefully, no drama!

I'll post results when I have them.

impactco · November 16, 2009, 11:41 PM

I shot these yesterday with no problems and they cycled the M80 perfectly. Even with the highest charge weight, there were no signs of excessive pressure. The 6.5gr load went through the chrono at 1485 fps average.

snevel · November 17, 2009, 07:22 PM

http://www.samcoglobal.com/Ammunition.html#9ammo

There was a discussion on GlockTalk and the consensus was that it was made for sub-machine guns.

If there's any left, it might suit your need.

Simeon

impactco · November 17, 2009, 07:34 PM

Thanks for the tip, but it's cheaper to reload them.

bfoosh006 · November 21, 2009, 11:35 AM

+1 on the Viht. V 3N38... the data for 147 gr is the hottest/fastest published data I've ever seen, period.
If that load doesn't cycle your 9mm SMG...

As always "start low and work up your load"

October 19, 2009, 11:08 AM	#1
impactco Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2008 Posts: 102	Heavy 9mm loads for carbine I have a J&R Eng M80 carbine from the early 70's that will not cycle standard 9mm loads. The only ammo that has worked consistently is this stuff, of which I only have a few boxes remaining: I ran some of this through a chrono. Out of the 16" barrel, I was getting about 1400 fps. Anyone have any reference to a recipe for an equivalent load? Info on the gun: http://www.imfdb.org/index.php?title...80_Carbine.jpg Thanks. Last edited by impactco; October 19, 2009 at 11:49 AM.

October 19, 2009, 03:51 PM	#2
jsflagstad Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Up Nort Posts: 419	What is the bullet design and weight? __________________ JSF "Is your rifle interesting? -Larry Potterfield

October 19, 2009, 09:57 PM	#5
dreamweaver Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Posts: 713	winchester still makes the 9mm NATO round. that's what you need. reported to be 10% hotter than their regular 9mm. usually some for sale in 500 rounds lots on GB. runs great in colt AR too. __________________ http://takdriver.com/

October 26, 2009, 09:59 PM	#11
Shoney Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2002 Location: Transplanted from Montana Posts: 2,311	The only difference between regular brass and +P brass is that the head stamps are different. The brass is the same. You might want to look at VV data for 3N38 powder. __________________ I pledge allegiance to the Flag - - -, and to the Republic for which it stands….Our Forefathers were brilliant for giving us a Republic, not a democracy! Do you know the difference??? and WHY?http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissue...les.asp?id=111

October 26, 2009, 10:47 PM	#12
jsflagstad Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Up Nort Posts: 419	Is the powder possible Unique? What you listed would be a touch over the Lee book max under a 115grn if it is Unique. __________________ JSF "Is your rifle interesting? -Larry Potterfield

October 19, 2009, 04:27 PM	#3
Foxbat Senior Member Join Date: January 13, 2008 Posts: 367	First, get some 125 grain +P ammo to see if it cycles your gun. If it does (and I suspect it will), then buy some +P brass and load it. But DO NOT mix regular brass with it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Case in point... I had many rounds loaded with 125 gr bullets, 4.9 grains of Universal Clay powder. It chrono'd at 1290fps out of Beretta 92, so I suspect it would even beat your 1400 number from a 16" barrel. Problem was... most brass held it without any issues... except the WIN WB. These consistently ruptured. NO OTHER brand did. Lot of "standard" 9mm brass will hold that pressure with no problem... the problem is figuring out which will not. For sure put the Winchester on that black list.

October 19, 2009, 09:26 PM	#4
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	4.9 Universal with a 125gr...now that's riding the edge! The Hodgdon site lists it as the max for that load. No wonder those cases split.

October 19, 2009, 10:54 PM	#6
rc Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2001 Location: CA Posts: 1,763	7gr 800x, 8.8gr AA#7, 8.5grains of blue dot will all break 1400fps using 115grain bullets in a carbine. Please refer to manufacturer websites and work up to max loads. Other slow powders may work like power pistol but I don't have experience with those. Commercial 115 grain ammo is only good for about 1330fps+/- from a carbine. You can probably get 1500fps or more if you drop to 90 grain bullets. You cannot do what you want with typical faster powders like 231, Universal, red dot, etc. rc

October 20, 2009, 08:04 AM	#7
Foxbat Senior Member Join Date: January 13, 2008 Posts: 367	I don't think he needs lighter bullets, as his goal is not velocity, but reliable operation. And usually you get that with heavier bullet, even at lower velocity.

October 20, 2009, 10:43 AM	#8
impactco Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2008 Posts: 102	All great advice guys. I have yet to pull one of the Winchester SMG rounds to see what the bullet weighs. I'm going to load some near max charge rounds with Power Pistol or Bullseye & 147g bullets and work up from there.

October 20, 2009, 10:48 AM	#9
csmsss Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Orange, TX Posts: 3,078	I used to occasionally see surplus Spanish milsurp 9mm ammo intended for SMG's, but have not seen it for some time. It was, intentionally or not, loaded to a longer OAL than standard 9mm ammo and was appreciably hotter. I could not get it to feed reliably in the Ruger P85 I had at the time and so only bought a single box of it. It was NOT marked as NATO and was probably WWII or earlier and most certainly corrosive.

October 26, 2009, 09:30 PM	#10
impactco Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2008 Posts: 102	I pulled apart one of the Winchester SMG rounds and it has a 115gr bullet with 5.7gr of an unknown flake powder.

October 26, 2009, 11:28 PM	#13
impactco Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2008 Posts: 102	This ammo was loaded in the '60s. Who knows what powder they used.

October 28, 2009, 10:49 AM	#14
rc Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2001 Location: CA Posts: 1,763	Power pistol should work good but I think you would be best with 115 or 124 grain FMJ for this as they will shoot closest to your sights. Duplicating the original factory load should be easy. Keep length the same, use a small rifle primer to decrease sensitivity and reduce risk of piercing a primer from heavy firing pin strikes. Then work up to the velocity you want using a chronograph and slower powder. Bullseye is too fast to get the velocity even with light bullets at safe pressure. rc

October 28, 2009, 10:04 PM	#15
impactco Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2008 Posts: 102	I loaded up 5 each of the following with Power Pistol, Speer 124g TMJ, Winchester 1x brass and Federal SP primers at 1.155" OAL: 5.7gr 5.9gr 6.1gr 6.3gr 6.5gr I'll run them through the chrono with the carbine in a few weeks and see what I get. Hopefully, no drama! I'll post results when I have them.

November 16, 2009, 11:41 PM	#16
impactco Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2008 Posts: 102	I shot these yesterday with no problems and they cycled the M80 perfectly. Even with the highest charge weight, there were no signs of excessive pressure. The 6.5gr load went through the chrono at 1485 fps average.

November 17, 2009, 07:22 PM	#17
snevel Junior Member Join Date: January 11, 2008 Posts: 12	Take a look at this ammo http://www.samcoglobal.com/Ammunition.html#9ammo There was a discussion on GlockTalk and the consensus was that it was made for sub-machine guns. If there's any left, it might suit your need. Simeon

November 17, 2009, 07:34 PM	#18
impactco Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2008 Posts: 102	Thanks for the tip, but it's cheaper to reload them.

November 21, 2009, 11:35 AM	#19
bfoosh006 Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Posts: 1,089	+1 on the Viht. V 3N38... the data for 147 gr is the hottest/fastest published data I've ever seen, period. If that load doesn't cycle your 9mm SMG... As always "start low and work up your load"

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