AR platform for hunting mule deer.

[CCCLVII]

My youngest correctly pointed out that I have gotten hunting rifles for all of his siblings but did not get one for him. I feel like a bad father now. This son is in to the AR platform. Where we usially hunt it's very rugged nothern Idaho so lots of hiking, so a light weight gun would be best.

Currently I am thinking 1 of 3 options. AR15 in 556 or 300BO or an AR10 in 308. What do you all think? This rifle will be used largely for mule deer and occasionally for coyotes. Remember light weight is a huge +

I'd like to keep it under $3000

Thanks for the help.

[weblance]

Read and learn about the 6.5 Grendel. Its the answer. It runs in the AR-15, so the benefit is a light rifle. It is intended to maximize the AR-15 in every way. Its a much better long range cartridge than anything else that fits in the AR-15.

[MarkCO]

I have hunted Deer, Elk and Pronghorn with AR15 and AR10 platforms. My 13 year old is going to use the DD .308 this year. IMHO, okay for a hunt or two, but I much prefer a 6 to 7 pound bolt gun for big game.

The Daniel Defense .308s are excellent and with your budget, what I would suggest if you want a .308 pattern AR.

[rodwhaincamo]

The 6.5 mm Grendel is about as superb as can be, outside of what an AR 10 can chamber, for what you are considering, though the AR 15 platform will certainly be lighter. After that I'd consider the 6.8 mm SPC, though it lacks the higher BC bullet/weight options. But it would still be sufficient.

6.5 mm Grendel brass can be fire formed from 7.62x39 mm brass from what I read long ago if you reload or have a friend that does.

After these options I'd think the 300 BO and 6x45 mm would barely be adequate along with 5.56x45 mm ammo with proper bullets. Some do fantastic with these, though the range is much more limited, which is why I wouldn't opt for any of these (of these I'd choose the 6x45 mm).

Most anything chambered in the AR 10 would be superior but would weigh more. Hiking up and down hills I'd prefer the AR 15 in 6.5 mm. It has taken elk out around 400 yds. A bit far for my taste and skill but it has been done.

[mavracer]

If I was gonna spend that much I'd get a Christianson arms AR10, I built my AR10 308 very basic but it weighs ~9# with the scope. But I also have less than $1200 in it included the Burris TAC30

[rodwhaincamo]

According to Hornady's site (muzzle fps and ft/lbs and 300 yds ft/lbs:

.243 Win 100 BTSP .405 BC
2960/1945 1175

.243 Win 95 SST SuperPerfomance .355 BC
3185/2139 1217

6.5 mm Grendel 123 SST .510 BC
2580/1818 1193

6.8 mm SPC 120 SST .400 BC
2460/1612 923

5.56x45 mm 55 GMX SuperPerformance .245 BC
3130/1196 513

.300 BO 135 FTX .274 BC
2085/1303 545

[Dufus]

A nephew just nailed two 7 point bucks last Saturday with his DPMS in 308 Win.

Only problem is it ain't that light....at least to me it ain't all that light.

[rodwhaincamo]

Quite frankly I'd opt for a Remington Mod 7 in 7mm-08 or .308.

[FrankenMauser]

I'd be considering something different - bolt action, lever action, pump action, etc.


But, if you want to stick with an AR, I'd be leaning toward 6.8 SPC (II) or 6.5 Grendel.
My personal preference is for .458 SOCOM, but it doesn't lend itself well to much beyond 150-200 yards and has limited magazine capacity (if that matters to you).

[rodwhaincamo]

I forgot about the .458 SOCOM, which reminds me of the .50 Beowulf and .450 Bushmaster.

Not sure what the max range might be, but I assume there could be some longer range stuff. To me, though, I'd prefer not to be as limited.

As FM above mentioned I'd opt for something other than an AR for this purpose. But if an AR is what's wanted the cartridges mentioned would be more ideal.

[GeauxTide]

DPMS Light Hunter in Creed or 260. For large deer, I would stick to 200 yards with the Grendel. Mine is an Alexander Arms Overwatch cut to 20". Bull barrel, but is shoots one hole with 123SST at 2450.

[CalmerThanYou]

Treat the lad to a POF Revolution. 7.3 Lbs ICA Rifle of the year. On my want list. All you need to add is a scope and sling.

[taylorce1]

If you reload, you might look at the 6X45 cartridge. My buddy just hammered three deer with it and 85 grain Sierra BTHP from 50 yards to 350 yards in his AR15. His load is 2900 fps out of a 20" barrel.

However, if your state has no caliber restrictions I'd just run the 55 grain TTSX in .223 and go kill a lot of deer. Colorado has a 6mm caliber minimum, so that's the reason he built a 6X45.

[Wyosmith]

I own ARs in 223, 6.8SPC and 308.
The AR-10 size is for the 308 and other shells bases on it I have made about 25 AR-10s in 243, 260 7-08 308 and 338 federal. All were accurate and functional, but all were on the heavy side. My own "10" is a Ruger SR762 with with a 10 round mag, scope and mount is still 11 pounds.

The AR15 "Deer Rifle" is best in either the 6.8SPC or the 6.5 Grendal. The 6.8 is my choice, but there is not much difference between the 2 out to about 350 yards. I have made about 20 6.5s and about 35 6.8s. I have loaded a lot of ammo for both and I find that with the same barrel lengths the difference is so slight as to be unnoteworthy.
The 6.5MM bullet fly a bit flatter the .277" bullets at longer ranges, buck wind a bit better. But in my experience I have seen kills with the 6.8 that were faster and more "eclectic" then those I have seen with the 6.5.
If you like 16" barrels I have found the 6.8 is a bit better then the 6.5G. If you have a gun with a 20 or longer barrel, the 6.5 out preforms the 6.8 by a small margin across the board.

I hear a lot of tripe about the 800-1000 yard hits from the 6.5G and the stories are largely true, but these things are answers to the wrong question.
Yes the 6.5 is easier to hit with at 500 yards and farther. But neither shell is made for killing game at those ranges. Remember, both are intermediate size shells. Neither will come close to a light bolt action in 243 or 25-06 at 500 and out. In the cases of the 22" and 24" 6.5 Grendels I have made, they are heavier and longer than the nice bolt action Mausers I have made in 25-06 270, 280, 30-06. This takes nothing away from the 6.5 G, but if we are talking about hunting rifles I believe we loose sight of the mission statement when we make them long and heavy for deer and antelope. Yes they are excellent tools for the job, but not quite as good as what we have had available for 100 years in lighter guns with flatter shooting and more powerful cartridges.

I personally have killed a lot of deer and antelope with my 6.8 and a few with 6.5G, and I have seen a lot more deer and antelope killed with both. Both were made to out-kill the 223 at every range and both do that very well. But in my opinion the 6.8 is a 400 yard shell, and 500 in the hands of superb marksman. With the 6.5G I'd add 100 yards to these capabilities for deer.

At ranges from "pistol distance" to about 300 yards I have seen a slight edge in legality of the 6.8 over the 6.5, but not enough to argue over.
Most Grendal shot deer and antelope have run 2-3 seconds longer than the ones I have killed with the 6.8. Most 6.8 shot deer and antelope have been bang-flops. The 6.5s (so far) have not been as good at breaking bone either.

I see more good 6.5MM bullets being made today than I had to use a few years back, so the 6.5G is closing that gap if loaded right. Nearly all 270 bullets were made for hunting. Many of the 6.5MM bullets were made for paper. So some of the comparisons are unfair because the 6.8 had a far better bullet in it for killing things than the 6.5s did. The best one I have used (and seen used) so far in the 6,5MM is the Nosler 125 grain Partition. For deer I doubt you can beat that bullet.

The longest shot I have made with either was with my 6.8 at just over 400 yards. The longest shot I have seen made was also with the 6.8 on a deer at about 440 yards (437 according to the laser) Both these deer dropped at the shot. The longest shot I have seen made with a 6.5 Grendal so far was one hit at about 285 yards. It didn't drop, but only ran about 20 yards.

As I said, I choose the 6.8 over the 6.5 for personal reasons, namely that if I want "long range capability" as a primary concern, I already own several 270s, a 25-06, two 308s, two 30-06s, a 300 magnum and an 8X57. All of which beat the 6.5 G badly for killing game, and all of which are as light and many of them lighter than those 6.5s I have been asked to make.

What I want in an "AR15 deer/antelope rifle" is "short and light" and for the short barrels carbines I find the 6.8 to have a slight edge over the 6.5.

BUT I would not feel a bit out of sorts if I was given a 6.5 Grendal with an 18" barrel to hunt with. I am sure I could and would use such a rifle for everything I'd ever carry the AR15 in 6.8 for and feel just fine with it.

If I were a young man and was only going to have one rifle for hunting game of 100 pounds to 300 pounds, and if that rifle was to be an AR15, I might choose the 6.5G

[MarkCO]

The .450Bushmaster is a hammer. Get a rifle length gas system on a longer barrel (Dubbed the .450 Corvette) and it is even more impressive. 230ish bullets at 2700 and 300ish bullets at 2400. Getting 1MOA accuracy with plenty of power still left at 400 yards.

[Mobuck]

"The 6.5MM bullet fly a bit flatter the .277" bullets at longer ranges, buck wind a bit better. But in my experience I have seen kills with the 6.8 that were faster and more "eclectic" then those I have seen with the 6.5.
If you like 16" barrels I have found the 6.8 is a bit better then the 6.5G. If you have a gun with a 20 or longer barrel, the 6.5 out preforms the 6.8 by a small margin across the board."

I agree with this comment. I have both and really like the 6.8. It's very user friendly while the 6.5G seems slightly harder to handle. The 6.5G is about all you really want going on in an AR 15 platform. Over 300 yards?? I don't consider either round suitable for game use over 300 yards. I have many other rifles far better suited for longer ranges than either.

[Art Eatman]

I'm happy with my one-MOA AR15, but for deer hunting I'll use one of my bolt guns in a larger bore. I like the feel of the bolt gun insofar as handling in the field.

And an AR10 is no lightweight.

[rodwhaincamo]

Indeed! I'm a rather small guy at 5'8" and 160 lbs and I do a bit of backpacking carrying a fair bit of my daughter's gear. My pack has weighed up to about 45 lbs and we often go through the Texas Hill Country. But I assume that pales in comparison to what you may be going through, and that doesn't include the deer that has to be hiked out. At some point ounces begins to feel like pounds they say. But then I don't know anything about your son or how things are handled.

[doofus47]

I bought an 18" upper in 6.5 Grendel from grendelhunter.com and I've been very pleased. The recoil is light and the rifle is accurate.

I took an antelope with it this year at about 175 yards. I intend to load for it, but life got in the way this year and I used Hornady 123gr SST instead. The round put a very noticeable 2" hole through my doe. Not that antelope are built like tanks, but if that round had hit a mule deer in the chest, I couldn't imagine that deer running very far. I intend to use mine for deer hunting as well.

I built mine for light, as I'm hoping to let the kids use it some day. I say I built mine for light, but I didn't buy the fluted barrel upper so I could have gone lighter still. Even so it weighs about the same as my wood stock bolt rifles with 22" barrels and 3-9 Nikon scopes. I mounted a Burris QD mount and a leftover Burris 2-7 scope on it and that brought up the weight substantially. I'm sure you could do better. It shot fine and was very light with irons (Magpul BUS).

Good luck to you hunting.

As Wyosmith has said performance comparisons between 6.8 or 6.5G is a wash out to 350 yards. After that, the 6.5G has an edge going forward. I chose the Grendel as I already have two 6.5 rifles and I intend to load for all of them, so the logistical compatibility was a plus for me.

[jmr40]

The AR10 in 308 or similar cartridges is going to be a 10+lb rifle to lug around. Not worth the trouble for me. I'd much rather have a 6-7 lb bolt gun in those calibers.

The 300 BA is a step down from 223.

With the best bullets there is nothing at all wrong with 223 at moderate ranges. it runs out of power for longer shots, but at under 200 yards will kill any deer.

I've never used one, but at least on paper the 6.8 offerings look like the best option. For my personal use I'd prefer to keep my AR's in 223/5.56 and just use a bolt gun if something bigger is needed. But the 6.5 Grendel certainly looks like the obvious choice if someone wants to go that way.

[the possum]

This son is in to the AR platform. Where we usually hunt it's very rugged northern Idaho so lots of hiking, so a light weight gun would be best.

I have not spent a lot of time afield with an AR, so maybe others can chime in here with their experiences. But just from what little I've done, the AR does not strike me as a fun gun to walk around with. It's nothing like the traditional hunting guns I grew up with. The receiver is so wide ya can't just hold it in one hand at the balance point. The pistol grip means ya can't carry it over your shoulder, across the body with the muzzle up, or butt resting on yer hip/thigh, 'cause ya can't cock yer wrist that far to hang onto it. Likewise the scope and protrusions make it hard to rest on the shoulder. 'Bout the only ways I've found to comfortably carry an AR is slung on the shoulder or diagonally across the body with the muzzle down. And that gets old pretty quick when ya can't move it around to other positions.

That said, the AR-15 is generally gonna be a lot easier to find in a lightweight configuration. If ya decide to go the AR-10 route, take a look at the S&W M&P-10. It's lighter than most others at 7.63 pounds, but because of the skinny barrel beyond the gas block it feels much lighter and better balanced in-hand. That's the whole reason I got mine. http://gunblast.com/SW-MP10.htm

[OsOk-308]

As stated, the AR-10 platform is going to be a bit heavier. I personally built an AR-10 (technically an LR-308) style for the purposes of elk and mule deer hunting. I am excited to field it next hunting season. I am used to hauling around a lot of gear, so the weight doesn't bother me. If you're doing stalking, weight should be the biggest consideration. If you're hunting from a stand, weight isn't too bad.

[HiBC]

Different strokes for different folks,I guess.
Has he gone hunting in this terrain yet? Sometimes a little real experience goes a long way.
Parents get manipulated by guilt all the time.Dad's unsung role is Wisdom and Experience.
Wouldn't Northern Idaho lead to some elk hunting?
Is he still growing?
I have nothing against the AR in the woods.IMO,its just another rifle.


1) Does he just want an AR,and is big game hunting a "justification"? A prairie dog and coyote AR is a different conversation.That hunger can be answered by an economical 5.56 AR. A cheap to shoot 5.56 AR.
That can be had for $600 these days.
IMO,a 6.5 Grendel would be a fine deer cartridge. IMO,marginal for elk.Its not so cheap to shoot.You don't wasn't to lose brass. If I had one AR,it would be a 5.56. I'd love to have a 6.5 Grendel,,,built as a light,elegant BOLT ACTION CZ,Howa,etc.
The cost of shooting a 6.5 Grendel and recovering the brass,for myelf,is easily met with a bolt gun. I can shoot a 5.56 AR a lot,cheap.
To have only one AR in 6.5 Grendel? That would be frustrating.Or expensive.


My DPMS LR-308L in 308 weighed in at 7.9 lbs new.Then add glass.Its 9lbs + in hunting trim. I'm about retired from big game hunting,but I never have taken that rifle hunting.I prefer to hunt with a bolt gun. For perspective,thats a light AR-10 style rifle. A Garand is about 9 lbs.With the scope,my .257 AI weighs 7 lbs.As possum pointed out in his post,I'd rather carry a Garand than an AR-10 of equal weight,jst for carrying. Hunting,you spend a lot of time carrying.And the goal is to shoot one good shot.
HOWEVER,a 5.56 AR can be great for marksmanship,prairie dogs,coyotes,3gun,and just fun.
A Father -Son conversation might reveal that is the "want",rather than big game hunting.How to answer that is up to you.

IMO,split those into two issues. Is the real want an AR? Or a hunting rifle? Not judging either,but that's a good place to start.

I have never owned a Ruger American. There is a voice on this forum I respect. He is a Distinguished Marksman,A Veteran,and a Successful Wyoming hunter. He has spoken highly of the Ruger American . I get the idea it is a sound,accurate,high value hunting rifle. Its available in many great hunting cartridges. I think maybe sale prices start in the high $300 range.
Its not an AR. But it will hunt. I don't know this son's age,but 3 to 5 years from now he may be physically different,and he may have different ideas,hopefully based on hunting experience.

"Bad Dad" :-) guilt aside...
For your $3000 budget you COULD get a $750 AR-15 in 5.56,a $500 scope for it, a $500 Ruger American in a great deer/elk cartridge,a $900 scope for it,
and have $300 left for reloading stuff.

But that's just my opinion.

[CarJunkieLS1]

AR-15 in 6.8spc...if you don't mind handloading get yourself a 7mm Valkyrie. HANDS DOWN the best option there is for deer sized game in the AR-15 platform. Beats the Grendel in in every way to as far as you care to shoot.

[rodwhaincamo]

Wow! Haven't heard of this cartridge. Seems it's equivalent to a 7mm-08, though I'm not sure how with a much smaller case capacity.