Turkish Pistol?

mfolts · January 30, 2009, 04:58 PM

I am trying to identify a pistol. It looks like a copy of a 1910 Brownig in 380 cal, except the safety is in front of the stock, just behind the trigger underneath where your thumb would naturally lie.
On the right side there is a "T" over a "C" inside a circle. On the left side it reads "1943", a large "N" over a cresent moon and star and "No 2931".
The safety is marked "Em" in the up position and "Ates" (fire in turkish) in the down position. there is no grip safety. It was aquired in Lybia in the early 1950's so I thought Turkish. Any input would be helpfull, thanks in advance.
Mark f

Chipperman · January 30, 2009, 06:02 PM

Quote:

...cresent moon and star...

Sounds Turkish to me

woad_yurt · January 30, 2009, 07:07 PM

I don't know what it is but it looks like a cool pistol. How does it shoot?

mfolts · January 30, 2009, 08:07 PM

Hair trigger, the unsafe kind from what i have been told. I have never shot it.
I am thinking a cheap wartime copy of an FN 1910 slide on a first generation Kirikkale (pre Walther copy) Frame. WW2 third world rush job. Any thoughts? The "T" and the "C", but not in a circle, can be found on Turkish mausers, as well as the crescent and star, minnus that odd "N". It's a strange one.
Thanks for looking.
Mark F

James K · January 30, 2009, 08:07 PM

I might look dumb if I am wrong, but I think that gun was made at Kirikkale. They later made a copy of the Walther PP that was issued to the Turkish army and also sold on the commercial market in the U.S. AFAIK, that Browning copy was their service pistol for a while and was never on the commercial market. TC stands for Türkiye Cumhuriyeti, or Republic of Turkey, equivalent on arms to the US Property mark.

Jim

greywalker · May 20, 2009, 07:53 PM

neat pistol, though I cannot help you with info on it, it sure looks sorta oldie european derived......certainly a nice looking piece...

Betfair39 · February 28, 2011, 10:14 AM

its Killigil.

James K · February 28, 2011, 05:30 PM

Huh? What does/did Nuri Killigil have to do with that pistol?

Jim

gyvel · March 1, 2011, 01:03 AM

Nothing in Mathews that it could have been copied from. Looks like pretty much an "original" design with features copied from various other older European designs.

Shadow7d · March 1, 2011, 02:32 AM

Sure it's not a Khyber Pass Special?
they will copy anything, and often the 'exuberance' of the markings, and the addition of incorrect proofs etc. that lacking such incorrect marks would be almost impossible for the usual guy to tell apart.

Rodger_p · March 1, 2011, 09:09 AM

I was actually thinking "Kyber Pass"

I could be wrong though.

Hardcase · March 1, 2011, 11:29 AM

It sure looks like somebody tried to copy an FN 1910, although I guess that there are only so many ways that you can design a small caliber blowback pistol.

The Kirikkale pistols that I'm familiar with have hammers. This one looks like it's striker-fired.

James K · March 1, 2011, 10:11 PM

I agree it is striker fired, but don't think it is Khyber Pass; it is far too well made, and the markings certainly appear to be Turkish. Outwardly, it resembles the Dreyse more than the M1910 Browning. Until someone comes up with a better idea, I will continue to think that it is of native Turkish design and manufacture, for the army or security forces (based on the "TC" which would indicate government property, like "U.S." on an American gun).

I might point out that in 1943, there were few sources of handguns for neutral countries. The combatant nations who made guns kept them for their own use and submarine warfare made normal commercial shipping hazardous at best. So it is very reasonable to think that a country like Turkey, with factories capable of making guns, might well have decided to make its own. If the number is a serial, there may well be quite a few of those guns around, just not seen in the U.S. or western Europe.

Jim

gyvel · March 2, 2011, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Outwardly, it resembles the Dreyse more than the M1910 Browning.

Which model Dreyse? The recoil spring around the barrel is 1910 Browning, the placement of the safety is typical Spanish Ruby, the bushingless slide may have been influenced by the Ortgies or Praga pistols and everything else is more or less borrowed from older European designs.

After the advent of the 1910 Browning design, many Euro pistols appeared that bore a similar appearance, including several Spanish made guns (e.g. Colonial, Longines, Martian etc.,) the Czech Praga and Mars pistols, the Belgian Melior, the French MABs, the Italian Galesi Model 1930, the German Ortgies, DWM, Kommer pistols, etc. etc.

Since the Turks apparently had relatively sophisticated firearms manufacturing facilities, it wouldn't be any great feat to design and manufacture a pistol that borrowed already tried and proven features from other designs.

James K · March 2, 2011, 02:52 PM

Senior moment. I meant Ortgies, not Dreyse, but only in the general flat appearance; the details are different.

Jim

HottAK47 · March 4, 2011, 02:39 PM

Looking at this neat little pistol gives me the impression that some fairly talented person once said to himself "this Ortgies pistol has too many parts, the grip safety is unneccesary and I would make it in .380 with the takedown system of the Walther if I was going to design a pistol"

grtscott · March 16, 2020, 02:27 PM

I know I'm coming into this a bit(!) late, but it looks like a Bernardelli to me. Do you still have it? Is it for sale?

reloder56 · March 18, 2020, 05:06 PM

Sure looks like an amalgamation of several designs, ( Browning/FN, Ortgies, Galesi, DWM etc. It's the first one I've ever seen and I have several Kirrikale/MKE PP clones in my collection, so I realize that Turkish manufacture of that period isn't up to established European standards, they are functional, reliable firearms. I wonder if a FN 10/22 magazine would function in it?

January 30, 2009, 07:07 PM	#3
woad_yurt Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2008 Posts: 1,206	I don't know what it is but it looks like a cool pistol. How does it shoot? __________________ A Makarov? Simple, easy and works perfectly every time. ¡Vale!

March 1, 2011, 11:29 AM	#12
Hardcase Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Location: Sunny Southern Idaho Posts: 1,909	It sure looks like somebody tried to copy an FN 1910, although I guess that there are only so many ways that you can design a small caliber blowback pistol. The Kirikkale pistols that I'm familiar with have hammers. This one looks like it's striker-fired. __________________ Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop - Gus McCrae

March 18, 2020, 05:06 PM	#18
reloder56 Member Join Date: July 2, 2013 Posts: 59	Turkish Pistol ? Sure looks like an amalgamation of several designs, ( Browning/FN, Ortgies, Galesi, DWM etc. It's the first one I've ever seen and I have several Kirrikale/MKE PP clones in my collection, so I realize that Turkish manufacture of that period isn't up to established European standards, they are functional, reliable firearms. I wonder if a FN 10/22 magazine would function in it?

January 30, 2009, 08:07 PM	#4
mfolts Junior Member Join Date: January 30, 2009 Posts: 4	Hair trigger, the unsafe kind from what i have been told. I have never shot it. I am thinking a cheap wartime copy of an FN 1910 slide on a first generation Kirikkale (pre Walther copy) Frame. WW2 third world rush job. Any thoughts? The "T" and the "C", but not in a circle, can be found on Turkish mausers, as well as the crescent and star, minnus that odd "N". It's a strange one. Thanks for looking. Mark F

January 30, 2009, 08:07 PM	#5
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I might look dumb if I am wrong, but I think that gun was made at Kirikkale. They later made a copy of the Walther PP that was issued to the Turkish army and also sold on the commercial market in the U.S. AFAIK, that Browning copy was their service pistol for a while and was never on the commercial market. TC stands for Türkiye Cumhuriyeti, or Republic of Turkey, equivalent on arms to the US Property mark. Jim

May 20, 2009, 07:53 PM	#6
greywalker Member Join Date: June 27, 2008 Location: the midwest Posts: 82	neat pistol, though I cannot help you with info on it, it sure looks sorta oldie european derived......certainly a nice looking piece...

February 28, 2011, 10:14 AM	#7
Betfair39 Junior Member Join Date: February 24, 2011 Posts: 1	its Killigil.

February 28, 2011, 05:30 PM	#8
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Huh? What does/did Nuri Killigil have to do with that pistol? Jim

March 1, 2011, 01:03 AM	#9
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	Nothing in Mathews that it could have been copied from. Looks like pretty much an "original" design with features copied from various other older European designs.

March 1, 2011, 02:32 AM	#10
Shadow7d Member Join Date: June 12, 2010 Location: Alaska Posts: 42	Sure it's not a Khyber Pass Special? they will copy anything, and often the 'exuberance' of the markings, and the addition of incorrect proofs etc. that lacking such incorrect marks would be almost impossible for the usual guy to tell apart.

March 1, 2011, 09:09 AM	#11
Rodger_p Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2004 Location: East TN. Posts: 207	I was actually thinking "Kyber Pass" I could be wrong though.

March 1, 2011, 10:11 PM	#13
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I agree it is striker fired, but don't think it is Khyber Pass; it is far too well made, and the markings certainly appear to be Turkish. Outwardly, it resembles the Dreyse more than the M1910 Browning. Until someone comes up with a better idea, I will continue to think that it is of native Turkish design and manufacture, for the army or security forces (based on the "TC" which would indicate government property, like "U.S." on an American gun). I might point out that in 1943, there were few sources of handguns for neutral countries. The combatant nations who made guns kept them for their own use and submarine warfare made normal commercial shipping hazardous at best. So it is very reasonable to think that a country like Turkey, with factories capable of making guns, might well have decided to make its own. If the number is a serial, there may well be quite a few of those guns around, just not seen in the U.S. or western Europe. Jim

March 2, 2011, 02:52 PM	#15
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Senior moment. I meant Ortgies, not Dreyse, but only in the general flat appearance; the details are different. Jim

March 4, 2011, 02:39 PM	#16
HottAK47 Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Posts: 29	Looking at this neat little pistol gives me the impression that some fairly talented person once said to himself "this Ortgies pistol has too many parts, the grip safety is unneccesary and I would make it in .380 with the takedown system of the Walther if I was going to design a pistol"

March 16, 2020, 02:27 PM	#17
grtscott Junior Member Join Date: March 16, 2020 Posts: 1	I know I'm coming into this a bit(!) late, but it looks like a Bernardelli to me. Do you still have it? Is it for sale?