School board meeting-When to shoot?

motorhead0922 · December 15, 2010, 01:44 PM

You've seen the video of Clay Duke vs the school board. Let's suppose that firearms were legally allowed in the meeting by law abiding citizens. At what point do you legally draw and fire? While he was brandishing? When he aims at the man?

chris in va · December 15, 2010, 01:57 PM

All I have to say is, someone waving a gun around would be construed as a threat to your life. The V for Vendetta on the wall would just be the cherry on the sundae.

RetiredMajor · December 15, 2010, 02:30 PM

I agree, the minute a gun is produced you're in a gun fight. At that point, acting instantly is, I believe, defensible. My gosh, what else would you wait for? He doesn't have to pull the trigger to show his intent.

Doyle · December 15, 2010, 02:36 PM

If I had been carrying in that room, the time I would have drawn and shot was when he turned away from the audience and pointed the gun at the lady. A distracted shooter is less likely to pick up your movement.

huchahuchax · December 15, 2010, 03:20 PM

I don't know if I've seen the whole clip, but I think at the point when he puts down the spray paint and starts using the gun to point out who will stay and who can go...

Alden · December 15, 2010, 03:22 PM

I agree. He would have made an easy target too. Very slow and large.

BILLtheDJguy · December 15, 2010, 03:24 PM

It's difficult without being there, but I would agree, that at some point, a combination of the gun being displayed in any type of threatening manor, and his body language or verbal threats, would constitute the situation of imminent danger to life. And, therefore allow you to subdue the threat, legally.

DT Guy · December 15, 2010, 04:58 PM

When the gun comes out, the gun comes out.

And the gun only comes out when it's going to shoot.

It was simple dumb luck that the guy kept missing; there could have been quite a body count before he got stopped, if he'd known how to shoot.

Larry

BILLtheDJguy · December 15, 2010, 05:05 PM

I read that he was a felon because of an incident involving his wife. Something to do with a rifle and stalking and shooting out the tires of her vehicle, preventing her escape...

The school super appeared to have a spare tire around his mid-section. Perhaps it wasn't the BG's intent to hit his target, but merely to appear to be trying to...

doc540 · December 15, 2010, 05:07 PM

In that scenario....spray painting a symbol on the wall, then pulling a gun?

Better judged by 12.....

Double Naught Spy · December 15, 2010, 05:22 PM

Quote:

When the gun comes out, the gun comes out.

And the gun only comes out when it's going to shoot.

Interesting, but not exactly befitting the situation. He didn't shoot for several minutes.

With that said, once out, I would consider him a threat.

RickB · December 15, 2010, 05:33 PM

Maybe I'm "missing" something, but I watched the video three or four times, and the guy got off one "aimed" shot, followed by an AD into the floor, before being taken out. Two shots, one directed at the board members. Is there more than one version of the video?

motorhead0922 · December 15, 2010, 05:38 PM

Thanks for your responses. This is one of those fine lines I want to know how to negotiate. I don't know about Florida where the event occurred, but here in Missouri the threat must be eminent. I don't know that walking around holding a gun or even waving it up in the air is an eminent threat. Now, the instant he points at someone, I consider it my moral obligation to bring him down.

**Bud Helms** · December 15, 2010, 07:14 PM

There is no checklist, no cheat sheet and no when-to-shoot card. Each situation is different.

Nothing wrong with discussing it.

We do scenarios in Tactics and Training.

Moving.

deathrider · December 15, 2010, 07:41 PM

Ok I have an interesting comment, something that actually happened, & suprisingly no one had a gun to defent themselves. it would have been a totally different outcome.

quite a few years ago, the Hospital where I used to live, had the local police come in & act as terrorist, they were not in uniform. they were supposedly were testing the employees, & their guns were unloaded, they came in holding employees at gun point, real guns, & forcing employees to floor, & demanding drugs.

not one employee knew this "drill" was supposed to happen, only some upper management, as well as police knew it was a drill, but all the employees were terrorized, & threatened at gun point by the police. no one was hurt during that drill.

It made paper, then employees sued for that & anxiety & nightmares, etc. I forget what exactly was sued for, & then it got hushed over. but what would have happened if a citizen carrying or a hospital employee had been carrying, it was against rules for a employee to carry, but wasnt for citizens to carry. now during a staged terrorist attack, what would have been the outcome if a few officers had been "shot in the line of duty"???? no badges showing, no uniforms, & came rushing in demanding people to floor, & demanding drugs. holding guns to employees heads, sure sounds like something they should not have done. I guess it was good they didn't have any armed employees, or citizens, my cousin would have been armed, but wasnt working when it happened, & quit because of that incident, & not trusting employer. they said they would have shot them a few "terrorist" & it would have got out of hand quick, & would they have probably gone to prison & maybe got the death penalty for defending themselves? especially since they would have shot an officer in the line of duty?

Randy

ProShooter · December 15, 2010, 07:50 PM

If you are up on your SA, you could see that as he was spray painting the red V, he was obviously a rightie using his left hand to spray awkwardly. That naturally draws the eyes to the right hand, wondering what it was doing. In this case, the right hand in the pocket was an immediate clue.

I would have already had my grip on my gun. The second he drew from the pocket, I would have double tapped. No doubt in my mind.

In this case, SA was key.

Golfin Gator · December 15, 2010, 08:12 PM

Anyone know what type of handgun he had? How did he miss (other than being a lunatic)?

**Tom Servo** · December 15, 2010, 08:20 PM

From a tactics/training standpoint, this was a disaster.

Your first clue things are going badly is when a guy spray paints the wall and produces a weapon. That generally doesn't bode well.

When said person starts ordering certain people to leave and others to stay, that historically means that he's singling out people he intends to harm.

If you're going to play the hero and engage the bad guy, you'd better be able to stop him, because if you fail, there's a good chance that you're the one who pushed him over the edge. That stupid woman with the purse could have gotten other people killed in addition to herself.

When an irrational, armed person displaying the above behaviors comes around the desk, gets within arms' reach, and turns his back, act. It may be your last chance.

Lastly, if you have a chance to negotiate with someone like that, taking a condescending tone and suggesting that they're trying to perform suicide by cop is not the best way to calm them down.

The people in that room have no idea how fortunate they are.

Double Naught Spy · December 15, 2010, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Anyone know what type of handgun he had? How did he miss (other than being a lunatic)?

Being a lunatic doesn't cause one to miss. Being unskilled and untrained certainly can. He flinched. Then he had an ND. The security guard (retired local detective) apparently missed some as well before hitting the guy in the leg. He apparently flinched as well, but was not a lunatic.

Quote:

When said person starts ordering certain people to leave and others to stay, that historically means that he's singling out people he intends to harm.

...or are people he intends to take hostage.

Quote:

If you're going to play the hero and engage the bad guy, you'd better be able to stop him, because if you fail, there's a good chance that you're the one who pushed him over the edge. That stupid woman with the purse could have gotten other people killed in addition to herself.

Yeah, aren't the anti-gunners worried about us trying to stop a bad guy by using our guns, that we will harm the wrong person, get harmed, or get others harmed.

If the person is on edge, it isn't our fault if we do something to save our lives that "pushes him over the edge." Doing anything or not doing something may push him over the edge.

I notice you didn't say anything about about the security guard who asked the gunman if his gun was real. Don't you think that could have pushed him over the edge with such a questioning of his capabilities?

Of course, that woman may be the one that rattled him sufficiently that he could not shoot straight.

Quote:

Lastly, if you have a chance to negotiate with someone like that, taking a condescending tone and suggesting that they're trying to perform suicide by cop is not the best way to calm them down.

Or maybe it will be the reality check the guy needs. He certainly announced that he was going to die already. Of course, just as soon as they provide all educators with extensive courses in hostage negotiations and regular updated training, we should be good to go, eh? I don't think it was a good idea either, I think the direction the board headed was going was to try to keep some control of the situation. The gunman did not appear to react negatively to the comments or even to being attacked by the woman.

Quote:

The people in that room have no idea how fortunate they are.

Somehow, I think they do.

zxcvbob · December 15, 2010, 09:30 PM

That "stupid woman with a purse" is a hero; while she was distracting him the other should have rushed and tackled him. And if his head happens to hit the tile floor or the corner of a table really hard in the process, or he catches a ballpoint pen in the neck, that's his bad luck.

Quote:

quite a few years ago, the Hospital where I used to live, had the local police come in & act as terrorist, they were not in uniform. they were supposedly were testing the employees, & their guns were unloaded, they came in holding employees at gun point, real guns, & forcing employees to floor, & demanding drugs.

not one employee knew this "drill" was supposed to happen, only some upper management, as well as police knew it was a drill, but all the employees were terrorized, & threatened at gun point by the police. no one was hurt during that drill.

I remember reading about that and thinking about how many improvised weapons there are in a hospital (especially various sharps and gas cylinders)

**Tom Servo** · December 15, 2010, 09:39 PM

Quote:

That "stupid woman with a purse" is a hero; while she was distracting him the other should have rushed and tackled him.

I disagree. He could have shot her where she was, and that could have been a trigger that set him to shooting others.

These folks weren't going to rush the gunman. Their only hope in that situation would have been to have stalled him until the security guard arrived. Whacking him with a purse or lecturing him under the assumption the gun was loaded with "caps" (as Husfelt admits at the end of the video) doesn't help to that end.

Quote:

He certainly announced that he was going to die already.

I may have misheard, but I didn't hear him say that in the video. Then again, if someone isn't going to take the risk in fighting him, the only other strategy would have been stalling.

Quote:

I think the direction the board headed was going was to try to keep some control of the situation.

As I mentioned, Husfelt thought the gun was harmless. At least, that's what he claimed. As such, he was taking a risk with the lives of everyone present.

"Tell me about your wife" would have been a far better strategy than "who was your wife?"

Providence · December 15, 2010, 09:45 PM

I find this an interesting discussion. My opinion is that your gun comes out when you see his. When he raises his gun you fire without hesitation. IMHO, that is your only chance.

chris in va · December 16, 2010, 01:25 AM

Quote:

I don't know that walking around holding a gun or even waving it up in the air is an eminent threat.

I think it's safe to say waving a gun around and making verbal threats would be construed as an imminent threat.

raimius · December 16, 2010, 02:05 AM

I'm not sure I would fire if he was talking and his gun was limp at his side.
Once the gun starts moving, yeah, time to take some decisive action.

That lady is an idiot with guts, IMO. She had the courage to act, but had neither a sound plan or the proper tools to execute her poor plan.
I doubt she had ever considered all the improvised weapons she had around her, or how best to take out an attacker.

.22lr · December 16, 2010, 05:55 AM

Actually, i have no clue when the perfect time to draw is. Too many variables. Life is messy like that.

However, it seems the perfect time to "withdraw" (depart, go away, leave) is when things get odd. Like when someone begins spray painting at a meeting. This is also a great time to call 911.

December 15, 2010, 01:44 PM	#1
motorhead0922 Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2010 Location: Missouri Posts: 635	School board meeting-When to shoot? You've seen the video of Clay Duke vs the school board. Let's suppose that firearms were legally allowed in the meeting by law abiding citizens. At what point do you legally draw and fire? While he was brandishing? When he aims at the man?

December 15, 2010, 02:30 PM	#3
RetiredMajor Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2008 Location: Dubuque, Iowa Posts: 456	I agree, the minute a gun is produced you're in a gun fight. At that point, acting instantly is, I believe, defensible. My gosh, what else would you wait for? He doesn't have to pull the trigger to show his intent. __________________ RetiredMajor, NRA Certified Instructor Every day's a holiday and every meal's a feast!

December 15, 2010, 04:58 PM	#8
DT Guy Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2001 Posts: 959	When the gun comes out, the gun comes out. And the gun only comes out when it's going to shoot. It was simple dumb luck that the guy kept missing; there could have been quite a body count before he got stopped, if he'd known how to shoot. Larry __________________ He who fights and runs away had better run pretty damn fast. Government, Anarchy and Chaos

December 15, 2010, 05:07 PM	#10
doc540 Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 1,430	In that scenario....spray painting a symbol on the wall, then pulling a gun? Better judged by 12..... __________________ Shooting more, typing less

December 15, 2010, 08:20 PM	#18
Tom Servo Staff Join Date: September 27, 2008 Location: Foothills of the Appalachians Posts: 13,059	From a tactics/training standpoint, this was a disaster. Your first clue things are going badly is when a guy spray paints the wall and produces a weapon. That generally doesn't bode well. When said person starts ordering certain people to leave and others to stay, that historically means that he's singling out people he intends to harm. If you're going to play the hero and engage the bad guy, you'd better be able to stop him, because if you fail, there's a good chance that you're the one who pushed him over the edge. That stupid woman with the purse could have gotten other people killed in addition to herself. When an irrational, armed person displaying the above behaviors comes around the desk, gets within arms' reach, and turns his back, act. It may be your last chance. Lastly, if you have a chance to negotiate with someone like that, taking a condescending tone and suggesting that they're trying to perform suicide by cop is not the best way to calm them down. The people in that room have no idea how fortunate they are. __________________ Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change. --Randall Munroe

December 15, 2010, 01:57 PM	#2
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	All I have to say is, someone waving a gun around would be construed as a threat to your life. The V for Vendetta on the wall would just be the cherry on the sundae.

December 15, 2010, 02:36 PM	#4
Doyle Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2007 Location: Rainbow City, Alabama Posts: 7,167	If I had been carrying in that room, the time I would have drawn and shot was when he turned away from the audience and pointed the gun at the lady. A distracted shooter is less likely to pick up your movement.

December 15, 2010, 03:20 PM	#5
huchahuchax Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2007 Posts: 298	I don't know if I've seen the whole clip, but I think at the point when he puts down the spray paint and starts using the gun to point out who will stay and who can go...

December 15, 2010, 03:22 PM	#6
Alden Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 265	I agree. He would have made an easy target too. Very slow and large.

December 15, 2010, 03:24 PM	#7
BILLtheDJguy Junior member Join Date: December 6, 2010 Location: Central, FL Posts: 250	It's difficult without being there, but I would agree, that at some point, a combination of the gun being displayed in any type of threatening manor, and his body language or verbal threats, would constitute the situation of imminent danger to life. And, therefore allow you to subdue the threat, legally.

December 15, 2010, 05:05 PM	#9
BILLtheDJguy Junior member Join Date: December 6, 2010 Location: Central, FL Posts: 250	I read that he was a felon because of an incident involving his wife. Something to do with a rifle and stalking and shooting out the tires of her vehicle, preventing her escape... The school super appeared to have a spare tire around his mid-section. Perhaps it wasn't the BG's intent to hit his target, but merely to appear to be trying to...

December 15, 2010, 05:33 PM	#12
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	Maybe I'm "missing" something, but I watched the video three or four times, and the guy got off one "aimed" shot, followed by an AD into the floor, before being taken out. Two shots, one directed at the board members. Is there more than one version of the video?

December 15, 2010, 05:38 PM	#13
motorhead0922 Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2010 Location: Missouri Posts: 635	Thanks for your responses. This is one of those fine lines I want to know how to negotiate. I don't know about Florida where the event occurred, but here in Missouri the threat must be eminent. I don't know that walking around holding a gun or even waving it up in the air is an eminent threat. Now, the instant he points at someone, I consider it my moral obligation to bring him down.

December 15, 2010, 07:14 PM	#14
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	There is no checklist, no cheat sheet and no when-to-shoot card. Each situation is different. Nothing wrong with discussing it. We do scenarios in Tactics and Training. Moving.

December 15, 2010, 07:41 PM	#15
deathrider Member Join Date: November 21, 2010 Location: VA Posts: 40	Ok I have an interesting comment, something that actually happened, & suprisingly no one had a gun to defent themselves. it would have been a totally different outcome. quite a few years ago, the Hospital where I used to live, had the local police come in & act as terrorist, they were not in uniform. they were supposedly were testing the employees, & their guns were unloaded, they came in holding employees at gun point, real guns, & forcing employees to floor, & demanding drugs. not one employee knew this "drill" was supposed to happen, only some upper management, as well as police knew it was a drill, but all the employees were terrorized, & threatened at gun point by the police. no one was hurt during that drill. It made paper, then employees sued for that & anxiety & nightmares, etc. I forget what exactly was sued for, & then it got hushed over. but what would have happened if a citizen carrying or a hospital employee had been carrying, it was against rules for a employee to carry, but wasnt for citizens to carry. now during a staged terrorist attack, what would have been the outcome if a few officers had been "shot in the line of duty"???? no badges showing, no uniforms, & came rushing in demanding people to floor, & demanding drugs. holding guns to employees heads, sure sounds like something they should not have done. I guess it was good they didn't have any armed employees, or citizens, my cousin would have been armed, but wasnt working when it happened, & quit because of that incident, & not trusting employer. they said they would have shot them a few "terrorist" & it would have got out of hand quick, & would they have probably gone to prison & maybe got the death penalty for defending themselves? especially since they would have shot an officer in the line of duty? Randy

December 15, 2010, 07:50 PM	#16
ProShooter Member Join Date: September 11, 2009 Location: Richmond, Va. Posts: 77	If you are up on your SA, you could see that as he was spray painting the red V, he was obviously a rightie using his left hand to spray awkwardly. That naturally draws the eyes to the right hand, wondering what it was doing. In this case, the right hand in the pocket was an immediate clue. I would have already had my grip on my gun. The second he drew from the pocket, I would have double tapped. No doubt in my mind. In this case, SA was key.

December 15, 2010, 08:12 PM	#17
Golfin Gator Member Join Date: April 4, 2009 Posts: 68	Anyone know what type of handgun he had? How did he miss (other than being a lunatic)?

December 15, 2010, 09:45 PM	#22
Providence Junior Member Join Date: August 26, 2010 Posts: 13	I find this an interesting discussion. My opinion is that your gun comes out when you see his. When he raises his gun you fire without hesitation. IMHO, that is your only chance.

December 16, 2010, 02:05 AM	#24
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	I'm not sure I would fire if he was talking and his gun was limp at his side. Once the gun starts moving, yeah, time to take some decisive action. That lady is an idiot with guts, IMO. She had the courage to act, but had neither a sound plan or the proper tools to execute her poor plan. I doubt she had ever considered all the improvised weapons she had around her, or how best to take out an attacker.

December 16, 2010, 05:55 AM	#25
.22lr Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2007 Posts: 245	The perfect time to draw... Actually, i have no clue when the perfect time to draw is. Too many variables. Life is messy like that. However, it seems the perfect time to "withdraw" (depart, go away, leave) is when things get odd. Like when someone begins spray painting at a meeting. This is also a great time to call 911.