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Old July 21, 2005, 07:04 PM   #126
mvpel
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Do you have a reference to the section of law which criminalizes "brandishing?"
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Old July 21, 2005, 08:16 PM   #127
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I'd had to have said "Gee guys, smallest I have is a $100 dollar bill, do you have change?"
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Old July 21, 2005, 08:46 PM   #128
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Deadly Force?

Blind, disagree all you like. It is of little consequence. The man in question did not discharge his gun, I don't believe he even pointed it at the two poor misguided youths, so you would have one he-- of a task talking a magistrate in North Carolina into jailing this guy. If you feel that he was not justified, then, given the same circumstances, take your chances. While you are recovering, if you are lucky enough to recover, you might contemplate the difference between a deadly weapon and deadly force.

Any reasonable man would, in my very limited view, have done exactly what was done. And that is close enough to the case law for me. And, having some famillarity with Alabama, I would be willing to bet you a "Bud Lite" that no police officer in the state would think otherwise. But I believe you stated that in "North Carolina" where you and I live, not the state the incident took place in. I happen to think you are wrong. And, try as I may to see your point of view, I can find nothing in any guidelines that I possess that supports your statement. Perhaps you are just working from emotion?

Correct me if I am wrong. In the meantime, just remember, Assault by pointing a weapon (14-34) is a MISDEMEANOR punishable by 6 months max. And self defense is a valid justification.

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Old July 22, 2005, 01:28 AM   #129
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Quote:
The man in question did not discharge his gun, I don't believe he even pointed it at the two poor misguided youths
discharging the gun should not matter at all, but you are correct, I thought the original post said that he pointed the gun at one of the gentlemen. In that case I have no problems with it. As soon as that gun is raised towards either of the two men, I feel he is in the wrong. I thought about that about 20 minutes after my last post and wasn't able to get back and check that.
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Old July 22, 2005, 01:45 AM   #130
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Correct me if I am wrong. In the meantime, just remember, Assault by pointing a weapon (14-34) is a MISDEMEANOR punishable by 6 months max. And self defense is a valid justification.
Misdemeanor doesn't mean not illegal. Just means a minor offense.

But as far as self defense as the reason goes, and again, this is based on the passage that I've seen multiple times in reference to the law (both in my class and on packing.org) but cannot find in the law about simple assualt, I don't see where you can pull a gun for a situation that hasn't elevated to deadly force yet. The cops might not care, when they show up and let the victim go, but we'll ignore that for now and just assume everyone is being a hardass and sticking the law to them. The "assailants" had no visible weapons. They could be screaming up and down that they are going to kill the guy as they approach, but as I was taught by the officers teaching my CCL class I am not yet authorized to use deadly force. I could draw the gun so it is prepared, but I cannot yet aim it at them.

Course, the other problem is, as I recall from the discussion at the course a few months ago, they can have a weapon on or near their person, but i am still not authorized to use deadly force until it is in their hand. I specifically asked about a scenario where a gun is right next to a guy on the table and he is threatening me, but until that gun is in his hand, I am in the wrong. This is a problem because, as I see it from those discussions, once I draw the gun, I have brought deadly force into the situation and if they were to shoot me and call the cops, they'd be fine because i'm laying there with a drawn weapon.

But anyhow, the assailants are approaching with no weapons. As per the legal definitions as I recall, this is still a simple assualt and I cannot bring in a weapon in my defense. If there is a gross size difference I might be able to argue that I had reasonable reason to believe I was in bodily danger, and deadly force was authorized, but that's up for a lawyer to argue for me.

I seem to see a theme in this thread that there was no option to retreat because they were on the phone and the car was dead 200 yards away. Considering that it is very rare that I've ever seen a mall in the middle of no where, I find it hard to believe that there wouldn't of been other phones around. I don't see why the option of continuing to approach a dangerous area would be encouraged when a tactical retreat may be less confrontational. If they continue to follow, you have an easier time arguing the bodily harm (as they are clearly pursuing you now) and if they don't, you are out of the situation.


Either way, John, I just want to say that I have no hard feelings towards you on this matter, and appreciate the correction on details that I noticed I missed (where the gun was pointed for example). The posters friend does not appear to be as in violation of the law as I thought he was. I do think that he was in a violation of the spirit of the laws in some ways (I feel that the law really wants that gun to stay far out of the situation until someone needs to die, hence, no brandishing either), but **** the spirit, it isn't written down.
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Old July 22, 2005, 06:10 AM   #131
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This is totally ridiculous.

Late at night, (don't read that part)
A man in less than peak physical condition is physically and verbally harassed by two larger men in a (dark here either) deserted area demanding money and positioning themselves in a classic attack formation.
And some here, on a gun rights board, think he was wrong.

Anybody that would not have drawn in the situation should seriously reconsider carrying outside their home.

Perhaps with experience and the development of street smarts they will see things differently.

If not then someday some thug is going to exploit their unwillingness to defend their life and take that gun and use it on some other person.

Quote:
as I was taught by the officers teaching my CCL class
Now that you have told us what somebody else has told you. What does your own research tell you, can you provide examples or links to statutes
Quote:
as I recall from the discussion at the course a few months ago, they can have a weapon on or near their person, but i am still not authorized to use deadly force until it is in their hand. I specifically asked about a scenario where a gun is right next to a guy on the table and he is threatening me, but until that gun is in his hand, I am in the wrong.
That is the single most ridiculous thing I have heard today.
IF that is true move to a free state or learn to quick draw like Matt Dillon
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Old July 22, 2005, 02:31 PM   #132
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Per the previous post:

"Late at night a man in less than peak physical condition is physically and verbally harassed . . ."

The story just keeps getting better. The original post happened in the afternoon. There was no mention of the person's physical condition or that he was being physically harassed.

Pretty soon the one-armed wheelchair bound man with one eye was working his way through a high-crime area when two massive body-builders with martial arts skills . . .

Read the original post and stick to the facts presented.
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Old July 22, 2005, 04:20 PM   #133
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Quote:
Read the original post and stick to the facts presented.
Read subsequent post #99 for added details
Quote:
He's middle aged and kindly round. Bad knees too.
Quote:
These thugs were bout my age, early twenties he said.
But I'll give you the afternoon vs late night. I was transferring my own history or maybe it was another reference to late night.

But I don't care if it was high noon in front of the downtown post office on a Monday.
The guy was within his rights to defend himself

Quote:
Pretty soon the one-armed wheelchair bound man with one eye was working his way through a high-crime area when two massive body-builders with martial arts skills . .
Still can't find the post that refer to this, but I did see where they were much younger and bigger.
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Old July 22, 2005, 04:23 PM   #134
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The law is the last thing on my mind when I encounter a perceived threat. I'll deal with the chief and the DA later, and I'm sure I'll come out on top, esp. here in good ole Virginny...
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Old July 22, 2005, 05:33 PM   #135
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Joab, sorry . . . I missed the update. Thanks for pointing it out.

The additional post certainly clarifies his options as far as successful retreat.
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Old July 23, 2005, 03:29 PM   #136
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When to Draw?

BTFrog, I did not take offense; I was concerned, however, that someone reading your post and taking it at face value might end up either hurt or be forced to shoot someone. I hope you will continue your classes and, if your community has a ride along program, do that too. If you spend any time talking with police officers you will find that they are just like the rest of us. They have opinions and are not always right. In fact, it was not uncommon when I was on duty to hear another officer on the radio asking Dispatch whether something was illegal or not. They are "generalists" with a lot of laws to enforce, use good public relations with citizens and attempt to keep a lid on an ever growing problem crime. Admittedly it has been a few years ago for me.

I am not aware of NC having a brandishing law. But then the Legislature meets every year and there is no telling what they end up writing into law!
Good luck.
John
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Old July 23, 2005, 04:47 PM   #137
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In Florida, there is nothing written in the law that requires the perps to have a visible gun/knife.
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Old July 23, 2005, 09:27 PM   #138
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I would have told them that I have 10 bucks worth of hollow points if they want that.
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Old July 23, 2005, 09:34 PM   #139
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Hell yes I would have pulled my gun, told them "I'm good at two things screwin and killin, and you arn't my type."
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Old July 29, 2005, 09:02 AM   #140
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Problem is, there is a difference between what a lot of people FEEL is justified, what the law SAYS is justified, and what would happen in court in a given county.

Pretty scary that being mugged is not justification for pulling your piece. During the mugging the perps will most likely find it, etc. Bad news.

Another good reason to carry pepper spray. They get too close, spray em. A lot less legal hassle.
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Old July 29, 2005, 11:13 AM   #141
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Ok - so is mugging a robbery or not? Sure sounds like 'forcible stealing' to me. Then deadly physical force IS justified.

In NY:
A person may not use deadly physical force upon another person under circumstances specified in subdivision one unless:
...

(b) He reasonably believes that such other person is committing or attempting to commit a kidnapping, forcible rape, forcible criminal sexual act or robbery; or
...
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Old July 30, 2005, 11:48 AM   #142
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By the way these guys sized him up and one started to move out of his field of view it obvious that they were predators and this probably wasn't the first time they had done this. If they were within 20 ft of this guy they were already to close and in my opinion we was certainly justified. Lets look at another aspect of this. Lets say he gives them 10 bucks. Do they say thanks and go buy sundaes? Probably not. More than likely they press for more and/or stomp this guy for kicks, maybe even take his weapon and use it on him. By drawing his weapon however he may have saved not only his life or health but possibly someone elses. They may remember this the next time they try this stunt and say " You know I wonder if this guy has a gun?"
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Old July 30, 2005, 02:08 PM   #143
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What we all need to learn are the gun katas from the movie "Equilibrium". Then it won't matter how close to us the bad guys get...we'll all be able to take out whole armies with just our handguns!
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Old July 30, 2005, 03:27 PM   #144
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i believe he was justified in drawing. damn proud of him.
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Old August 1, 2005, 11:11 AM   #145
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absolutely justified. If the case EVER went to court, all he has to say is, and repeatedly so, "I was in fear for my life." That's it. He had no clue what these two men were carrying, or what their intentions were. They invaded his space and made him feel threatened.

Turning and running (tactical retreat) may not have been an option, and also, not viable because a) his car is at his present locaton, so is the nearest phone. He could run for ten minutes and end up not being able to go back because of the veiled threat already posed. When he DID get back, his car would most likely be gone, and then he is doubly screwed.
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Old August 1, 2005, 06:24 PM   #146
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I think he did the right thing- he was out numbered and threatened.
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Old August 1, 2005, 11:38 PM   #147
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I think he did right. Hopefully the BG's will stop and think twice before doing that again, so saving someone else who may not be carrying.
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Old August 3, 2005, 08:18 AM   #148
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Bottom line is--------when your butt is on the line, do any of you think all the legal ramifications are going to start running through your mind ???? All of the what ifs ??? Bovine feces........just do it........Survival first.......and then if necessary hire a lawyer.......Don't be found dead with a pistol in your pocket------unused.........
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Old August 3, 2005, 04:39 PM   #149
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Quote:
when your butt is on the line, do any of you think all the legal ramifications are going to start running through your mind ???? All of the what ifs ???
Unfortunately yes. But very quickly.

Maybe that should be a litmus test. If you aren't tjinking about legalities then it really is in the wringer.

When I took the CCW class we watched a video with some kind of legal guru narating.

One thing he said was that if your hands are cold you can probably justify deadly force.
If your ears are hot you can't.

His theory was based on the theory that when you are truly fearful blood leaves your extremities as some kind of natural defense against injury, there fore your hands are cold. (?)

When you are angry your ears get hot for some reason.

Like I said not my theory but still interesting.
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Old August 3, 2005, 08:02 PM   #150
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I thought when your hands were cold, that meant you were already dead. When you're dead then you know you would have been justified in using lethal force when you were still alive.

Seriously though, interesting, but I don't see how that could be useful. I'm not planning on feeling my ears when I should be shooting.


BTF:

Quote:
The "assailants" had no visible weapons. They could be screaming up and down that they are going to kill the guy as they approach, but as I was taught by the officers teaching my CCL class I am not yet authorized to use deadly force. I could draw the gun so it is prepared, but I cannot yet aim it at them.
Nope. If a reasonable person would be in fear for his life, it's justified. If a reasonable person would think they intend to carry out their threat, and it looks like they are able to carry out their threat, you are justified.

Take the classic example of the guy with a hand under his coat, telling you he has a gun and will kill you. You don't know whether he does or not, but you'd be well advised to shoot him anyway. Any educated jury would find that reasonable whether it ended up being a gun or a finger.

BTF:

Quote:
Course, the other problem is, as I recall from the discussion at the course a few months ago, they can have a weapon on or near their person, but i am still not authorized to use deadly force until it is in their hand. I specifically asked about a scenario where a gun is right next to a guy on the table and he is threatening me, but until that gun is in his hand, I am in the wrong.
Again, nope. I don't care who told you that, or why. If someone has a gun on a table and intends to kill you, you better shoot him first, or beg for your life and hope he mercifully leaves you alone or just beats you.
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