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Old November 10, 2018, 09:28 PM   #51
Cosmodragoon
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... so how strong can a Mountain Lion be ?
They are amazingly agile but not much sturdier than a coyote. A relative of mine killed one with a handgun in .40 S&W using whatever usual defensive hollow-points.
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Old November 10, 2018, 09:43 PM   #52
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They are not normally transported just to be called (declared dead).
I've been through this, in my state, if the death is "unattended" meaning there was no one with them when they died (and that means not in the same room with them) the sheriff's deputies show up and do an investigation. Then, someone from the Coroner's office (a DR) shows up at the scene, and declares them dead. THEN EMT's can transport the body, or it waits for pickup by a funeral home.

Father in law went to the kitchen for a snack, and then expired, wife in the living room, found him on the floor when he didn't come back in a reasonable time. This is what happened. Call made, cops showed up with ambulance, asked enough questions to rule out foul play, waited till the coroner showed, death legally pronounced, then cops left. EMT's waited until informed funeral home was on its way, then left. I was there and helped load him into the wagon... overall, I've had better nights..

now, I've been thinking about the "survivability of handgun wounds", and while I'm not going to argue the numbers, I think there has got to be a better way to say it.

Something that doesn't leave me (and anyone else??) with the impression that any or every handgun wound is 80-85% survivable.
I get it that in defensive shooting, with small targets, moving, and often in low light, getting good hits is tough and the overwhelming majority of hits are not going to be instantly fatal, or even immediately stopping. SO yes, statistics will count numbers and pronounce the result. But I think the result of just those numbers is misleading.

Sadly, people do die from wounds that with proper and timely treatment are survivable, and a tiny percentage of people actually survive wounds that normally prove fatal. The way I see it, maybe 80-85% of people do survive, but the odds of any one case being in that percentage depend on a hugely complex host of factors interacting, and a blanket statement about survival percentage by the numbers simply doesn't begin to convey the actual reality of being shot.

And so, again I ask, what value is the statistic??
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Old November 10, 2018, 10:15 PM   #53
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Isn't there somebody called a coroner?
https://www.crimesceneinvestigatoredu.org/coroner/
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Old November 11, 2018, 10:21 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Nanuk View Post
They are not normally transported just to be called (declared dead). A paramedic in contact with medical direction ( a DR that oversees paramedics per a prior written agreement) can call in cases of obvious death.
That was not the case in the states in which I practiced medicine, but the law may vary from state to state and things may have changed since I retired from practice. During my practice in multiple states, only MDs or DOs could declare patients dead. Even Registered Nurses could not.

Yes, very obviously dead individuals usually become coroner's cases without a hospital being involved. However, in any instance of a fresh shooting if an individual is without signs of life, first responders will initiate resuscitative attempts and transport to a medical facility. How many times have you heard in the news that a gunshot victim was transported to a hospital where he later died? Well, most of those individuals were already dead before they got to the hospital, they were just declared dead after they arrived at the hospital.

But the number of gunshot wound fatalities that were the result of unwitnessed events and later found obviously dead is really pretty small considering the numbers of gunshot wounds in the whole, and many of those are suicides. So those fatalities really wouldn't have much affect on the overall reported case fatality rates for gunshot wounds that were the result of assault, self-defense, or police action.

Here is a retrospective analysis of case fatality rates for gunshot wounds resulting from firearms assault for the period 2003-2012. The authors maintain that the overall case fatality rate remained constant at 22%. Now, 22% is higher than the 15-20% overall fatality rate for handgun GSWs that I referenced. But this is an analysis of gunshot wound overall and doubtless included some long gun injuries as well.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5508146/

As for the value of the statistic, for those who find it of no value or no interest I suggest they just ignore it.

Last edited by pblanc; November 11, 2018 at 11:10 AM.
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Old November 11, 2018, 10:56 AM   #55
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"...223 was developed for killing men in war..." Nope. It was never intended to be a battle rifle cartridge. Strictly an air crew survival rifle cartridge. Until McNamara decided the M-16 was sexy and jammed it down everybody's, the U.S. Army included, throats.
I remember reading (when the M16 first replaced the M14 in Vietnam that two reasons for the change was to allow soldiers to carry more ammunition and that it was found that in Korea, G.I.'s would sometimes get so fatigued by the recoil of their M1's that they would elect to pass-up shooting even in a "target-rich" environment...the mild recoiling .223 was the supposed remedy for that. I do not know how true that was, but that was what I read back then.
Having been one of the last to be issued an M1 in basic training, I can attest to cumulative effect of heavy recoil as being a possible factor in passing up a target.
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Old November 11, 2018, 11:43 AM   #56
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Regarding stopping power of slow pistol caliber projectiles;
There is a small but busy community out there dispatching 500 to 1000 hogs (similar structure to humans) on any given week.
If you listen you'll learn the slower heavier projectile is better suited to breaking down and disabling the target.
Stopping and killing are two different things.
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Old November 11, 2018, 03:47 PM   #57
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There is a small but busy community out there dispatching 500 to 1000 hogs (similar structure to humans) on any given week.
If you listen you'll learn the slower heavier projectile is better suited to breaking down and disabling the target.
Stopping and killing are two different things.
I hope that we've all agreed that stopping power and killing power are different by this point in the thread.

The question I have is whether hogs and human are really that similar. I'm no pig expert but it seems to me that humans generally have a thinner cross section from many angles. When it comes to humans, how different are "fast and light" versus "slow and heavy" with respect to entering a skull cavity, severing a spine or major artery, fatally disrupting a heart, or just plain breaking bones?

Also, how fast does "fast and light" need to be and how heavy does "slow and heavy" need to be to achieve those things?
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Old November 11, 2018, 03:58 PM   #58
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That was not the case in the states in which I practiced medicine, but the law may vary from state to state and things may have changed since I retired from practice. During my practice in multiple states, only MDs or DOs could declare patients dead. Even Registered Nurses could not.
This is my understanding as well. I was not aware that in some states EMTs were allowed to make the call.
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Old November 11, 2018, 11:02 PM   #59
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You missed my point, Cosmodragoon.
The thread subject is handgun stopping power.
Since you're throwing a big slow pill best suited for breaking things aim at a big bone to increase your odds of actually stopping whatever you're trying to stop.
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Old November 11, 2018, 11:42 PM   #60
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I believe it was Wyatt Earp that once said, " Fast is good, accuracy is final."

Where I live in rural PA it usually takes a least 20 min to get an ambulance and another 20 min run to get to the hospital. Often it takes much longer to get to you. I suspect should I hit a house invader twice in center mass with my .45ACP. Their chances of living are darn poor. If I hit him in center mass with my 12GA, the odds would get really worse.

I will add: You may or may not get an EMT before you get to the hospital.
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Old Yesterday, 02:20 AM   #61
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"Stopping power" is used in various forms. The goal is to prevent the villain - attacker - from continuing his attack. A 'stop' occurs when the villain is unable to continue. This may be death, serious injury, psychological defeat - including fear.

The villain does not have to be on the ground. If his eyes have rolled up in his head and he isn't tracking, he's stopped. No, that's not the easiest call to make.

Having spent some 28 years as a lawman, I have noted several facets. No. It isn't guaranteed. Too many variables for a sure fire prediction, sitting at home. However, it is a possibility and various conditions tend to encourage the phenomenon.

Accuracy is rather important. But accuracy applies to all calibers and weapons. A mediocre hit with a large caliber is better than a mediocre hit with a small caliber. A good, solid hit with a small caliber is better than a miss with a large caliber, but shooting a small caliber doesn't guarantee a hit. A good high center of the torso hit is the best 'ordinary' shot. The best shot is through the center of the brain, disrupting the motor centers of the brain. It is also rather difficult to effect. One must practice with one's defensive pistol and ammunition to encourage a good shot.

Sufficient caliber is important. An eight inch cannon does a much better job of it than a .45 ACP, for instance, but they are hard to holster. A standard .32 ACP is quite easy to carry, but tends to lack 'authority'. My own thought is nothing less than a .38 Special with full weight bullets and a reasonable velocity. I prefer larger, but I'm bucking the trend.

Also, it has been noted but is worth repeating. Death is possible in such matters but not needed. One wishes to end the threat, not kill the villain. It happens, but is not a requirement for the task. Which is not to encourage the idiotic notion of 'shoot to wound'.

Do not confuse animals with humans. Human sized animals tend to be more vital and harder to kill. A deer will not comprehend it has been shot, lay down and die like a human will.
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Old Yesterday, 08:32 AM   #62
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Handguns are a lot more effective than most think. I don't for a second believe the old wives tale that a pistol is only for fighting your way to the rifle. In fact I'd say that any of the common handguns cartridges from 9mm on up are just as effective as rifle rounds. The key is hitting the target using the right bullet. A rifle makes it easier to vitals as range increases. At extreme close ranges it is easier with handguns.

Here is a study done to give some insight to handguns stopping bear attacks. They documented 37 cases where people were attacked by bear and used a handgun to defend themselves. Eight of these instances involved black bear, the rest grizzly. In 36 of the cases the attack was stopped. In some the person was still injured by the bear, but the gunshots either persuaded the bear to leave or killed it outright.

Guns used ranged from 9mm up to 454 Casul. The 44 magnum was most commonly used, but 9mm, 45 ACP, and 10mm combined for more successful stops than all others. The only failure was a 357 magnum where it is thought that all shots missed the bear.

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/def...#axzz5Ucf4zGTb

I'
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Old Yesterday, 08:44 AM   #63
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In fact I'd say that any of the common handguns cartridges from 9mm on up are just as effective as rifle rounds. The key is hitting the target using the right bullet. A rifle makes it easier to vitals as range increases. At extreme close ranges it is easier with handguns.
Good video about caliper and weapon type 'effectiveness.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nycYxb-zNwc&t=519s
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Old Yesterday, 08:52 AM   #64
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Handguns are a lot more effective than most think. I don't for a second believe the old wives tale that a pistol is only for fighting your way to a rifle. In fact I'd say that any of the common handguns cartridges from 9mm on up are just as effective as rifle rounds. The key is hitting the target using the right bullet. A rifle makes it easier to hit vitals as range increases. At extreme close ranges it is easier with handguns.

Here is a study done to give some insight to handguns stopping bear attacks. They documented 37 cases where people were attacked by bear and used a handgun to defend themselves. Eight of these instances involved black bear, the rest grizzly. In 36 of the cases the attack was stopped. In some the person was still injured by the bear, but the gunshots either persuaded the bear to leave or killed it outright.

Guns used ranged from 9mm up to 454 Casul. The 44 magnum was most commonly used, but 9mm, 45 ACP, and 10mm combined for more successful stops than all others. The only failure was a 357 magnum where it is thought that all shots missed the bear.

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/def...#axzz5Ucf4zGTb

I've never shot a human. But I've shot a lot of deer, black bear, and seen a lot of others shot. What happens is hard to predict. I've seen 100 lb deer with mush for lungs and a 2" exit hole run 150 yards. I've seen 500 lb elk do a belly flop and never twitch when hit with a 243.

Humans are no different. Some humans, or animals, have an incredible desire to live and simply won't die from the same wounds that would kill a normal person. If you happen to be attacked by one of those people, or animals, then it just ain't your day. Regardless of what you're shooting.

Read about this guy:

http://www.psywarrior.com/benavidez.html

During the Vietnam war he survived, and continued to fight for 6 hours between being shot the 1st time and arriving at a hospital. By the time he got to the hospital he had 37 gunshot and shrapnel wounds including a 7.62X39 bullet through one lung. In addition to 2 bayonet stab wounds, and a broken jaw from the butt of an AK 47. The 1st rescue helicopter he was in was shot down and he also survived the crash. His intestines were outside his abdomen. Yet he was carrying other wounded soldiers to the helicopters with all of these wounds.
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Old Yesterday, 09:05 AM   #65
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As I read all the stopping power "theory" I always revert back to what was taught to me by my defensive instructors. Many of you seem to have the mentality that if you are forced into a defensive life threatening situation you will automatically have the perfect mental and physical defensive weapon skills to efficiently cease the threat. The odds are you will NOT. You CANNOT truly prepare yourselves for a stressed and Adrenalin filled defensive firefight. 99% of us have not , and will not need to draw a weapon and fire in a life threatening defensive situation (not referring to wild animal encounters). Within one of my defensive classes , student stress and Adrenalin was created from unknown, random instructors yelling and making quick violent physical movements towards the students during non- firing exercises, and these instructors were VERY believable. It really got me as a typical untrained civilian, to realize the seriousness of this stressed situation. All's you can do is educate yourself, choose your preferred defensive weapon , and seek the best defensive training. Now your prepared as best you can be for the life threatening situation that hopefully never comes.
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Old Yesterday, 12:06 PM   #66
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Goods points Road clam. Never underestimate pucker factor.
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Old Yesterday, 12:30 PM   #67
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Knew a guy, LEO, great shot, always on the pistol team that went to state and national competitions, often won.

He got into a gunfight with a bad guy. Both of them emptied their pistols, neither one hit the other. Range was 15 FEET!!!!!

As the LEO reloaded, the bad guy gave up. Later he said that he gave up because he hadn't been shot, yet, and didn't want to be. Said he figured it was better to go to jail without bullet holes in him than go where the bullet holes might send him...

This shooting was closer to the "High Noon" shoot out than is usual, both men facing each other, and one would think, "How can anybody miss at 15feet??" but BOTH MEN DID, every shot.

it's rare, but it does happen. BOTH the highly trained, expert shot and the untrained civilian (bad guy) were exactly equal in shooting ability that day. Neither one hit his opponent.

Not a one shot stop, not even a one HIT stop, but a successful stop, nonethe less. Purely a psychological stop. Where to you put those in your database??


A "psychological" stop on an animal happens, too. If the beast turns and wanders off, or runs away, shot or not, it is such a stop.

The OP was menaced by a large cat. He shot it with a handgun. Cat didn't drop DRT, and now he's asking about handgun stopping power.

Quote:
Here is a study done to give some insight to handguns stopping bear attacks.
I read the linked article, interesting stuff, thanks! But I have to ask why you said this...

Quote:
The 44 magnum was most commonly used, but 9mm, 45 ACP, and 10mm combined for more successful stops than all others.
What point are you trying to make saying this? I don't understand how or why adding up 3 different calibers number of stops matters in any way.
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Old Yesterday, 12:47 PM   #68
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That was not the case in the states in which I practiced medicine, but the law may vary from state to state and things may have changed since I retired from practice. During my practice in multiple states, only MDs or DOs could declare patients dead. Even Registered Nurses could not.
I have been out of that business 25 years. Things change. I saw it in cases of hem-coperectomy, decapitation, GSW's to the head with a significant portion of the head missing, etc, not general trauma, and always with direct consultation of an MD. I also practiced wilderness medicine in hi angle SAR. You normally do not do CPR on someone who fell 300 feet 2 hours ago either.
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Old Yesterday, 01:56 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Nanuk View Post
I have been out of that business 25 years. Things change. I saw it in cases of hem-coperectomy, decapitation, GSW's to the head with a significant portion of the head missing, etc, not general trauma, and always with direct consultation of an MD. I also practiced wilderness medicine in hi angle SAR. You normally do not do CPR on someone who fell 300 feet 2 hours ago either.
Yes, there are some situations in which an individual can be considered definitely dead and first responders are not obliged to initiate resuscitation efforts. Decapitation is certainly one such recognized traumatic event. But none of these would apply to fresh gunshot wounds, save perhaps an individual who had most of his head blown off with a shotgun.

Current management of penetrating trauma in the field has generally embraced a "scoop and scoot" philosophy in which prolonged stabilization in the field, apart from control of bleeding and maintenance of airway, is curtailed or abandoned in favor of rapid transit to the nearest facility capable of providing emergent surgical care.
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Old Yesterday, 08:05 PM   #70
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You missed my point, Cosmodragoon.
The thread subject is handgun stopping power.
Did you see my earlier post about what factors cause an attacker to stop? That's why I asked the question I did about "fast and light" versus "slow and heavy" (and to what extent) with respect to causing those events in humans.

Your post had said that "slow and heavy" was performing best in "breaking down and disabling", aka stopping, pigs.
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Old Today, 09:04 AM   #71
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In fact I'd say that any of the common handguns cartridges from 9mm on up are just as effective as rifle rounds.
ONLY IF, and it's a BIG IF, the handgun rounds are administered to absolutely vital areas...pinpoint accuracy needed. And I'd add, the handgun's claim to fame is that it is much more likely to be available, given its ease of carry...Rod
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