Where has all the powder gone? - Page 3

mnoirot64 · February 4, 2014, 07:02 PM

A quick search of the inventory at Midsouth yesterday yielded something like nine powders in stock! This is for one of the country's larger wholesalers. It's not better.

Mohave-Tec · February 4, 2014, 08:38 PM

"Wonder why after the 2008/9 shortage everyone got all complacent? You'd think after things became available everyone would lay in a bit of a stash, take up reloading etc. especially if you're a big enough enthusiast to hang out in gun forums."

People did not become complainant. The people who experienced it simple hung in there until they got their fill. The people who are in this thread and empty handed weren't here or were not nearly as involved in 2008 as they are now and are pretty much unaware of that shortage.

Mohave-Tec · February 4, 2014, 08:39 PM

"I disagree. That shortage lasted perhaps 6 months and ended abruptly."
That is just incorrect.

mnoirot64 · February 4, 2014, 08:43 PM

I just pulled up Midsouth's inventory of in-stock powders. Not many:

Hodgdon H50BMG
Hodgdon US 869
Hodgdon LEVERevolution
Hodgdon Superformance
IMR 7028
IMR 7828SSC
IMR SR4759
VihtaVuori N105
Accurate LT-32
Norma 204
Norma MRP
Norma 217
Accurate 4350

Pretty slim pickings. For the most part, all rifle powders. I would say the powder situation is not improving when a wholesaler has none to sell to LGS.

Mohave-Tec · February 4, 2014, 08:46 PM

Salvadore, you've got stuff that hasn't had the lids off in 30 years. LOL.
Good for you.
I'm still loading pistols with WAP (Winchester Action Pistol) almost exclusively even though it hasn't been produced since something like 1994. When it runs out, in 5 or 6 more years I will start in on my TiteGroup.

Mohave-Tec · February 4, 2014, 08:52 PM

mnoirot64, I'm a rifle man, I shoot long range. That list is pretty pitiful indeed. I would feel more comfortable with more rifle powder but I have an 8 mostly full of Varget and a full 8 of Benchmark and at least 3 pounds of H4831SC. I'll be fine until things ease up.

salvadore · February 4, 2014, 10:17 PM

Mohave-Tec...You noticed eh, but 40% of my supplies were acquired between the first and second emaculation and this is some of the reloads I did this winter, I wont show you my rimfires accumulated between these eras due to the amount of mortification of flesh and pulling of hair.

salvadore · February 4, 2014, 10:22 PM

Quote:

People did not become complainant. The people who experienced it simple hung in there until they got their fill. The people who are in this thread and empty handed weren't here or were not nearly as involved in 2008 as they are now and are pretty much unaware of that shortage.

Maybe Mohave-tec, but I wonder how many of the current posters were expressing the same complaints 4 years ago.

Sure Shot Mc Gee · February 4, 2014, 11:57 PM

Everyone I talk to still believes the shortage's are caused by hording & impulse buying. As far as I'm concerned that's a bogus answer and no longer applies to a shortage situation that's been on going for years. Simply put. Who is using the most powder these days. Certainly isn't me or any fellows I know from my gun club. So it has to be some other. Perhaps it's you!! Then again does (military) ring a bell for anyone.

Mohave-Tec · February 4, 2014, 11:59 PM

I have to assume, next to none.

Brian Pfleuger · February 5, 2014, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick_C_S

In terms of powder, it's far from "undeniably improved." In fact, I don't believe it has improved at all. At my LGS, the powder situation is worse right now than at any time in the previous 12 months.

Yes, but your LGS doesn't represent the entire situation. As I outlined above, most major sources I check have *some* powder in stock. That's better than it was 6 months ago when the web pages all had bright red warnings that they were not taking back orders and prior orders were being filled weeks or months after being placed. Now, many places have several types in stock, some have over a dozen and not just magnum.

Plus, the shortage isn't just powder. The shelves were nearly 100% bare of all ammo, powder and primers for over a year. Now, almost all ammo except 22LR is readily available and most stores are getting regular shipments of 22 also, with some not even selling out instantly.

The over all situation is very much improved.

Nick_C_S · February 5, 2014, 01:02 AM

Overall, things have improved. Primers can be found. Bullets are showing up some. Lead bullets are doing much better. Brass is popping up from time to time too.

My LGS (Sportsmen's Warehouse) isn't the whole nation, true. My perspective is anectodal. Sportsmen's Warehouse does seem to be fairly well connected; and they've been able to get a small - but steady - supply of components throughout the shortage. But they've gotten very little powder in the last 6 or 8 weeks. And it's only mag rifle powder, with meager exceptions.

There's other stores in the area too. Same thing.

The Sportsmen's inventory truck shows up every Wed evening. I'm out there, standing in line with a about 100 others every Thursday morning, waiting for the doors to open. I get to see exactly what they get in stock every week. They haven't gotten a significant amount of powder in a long time.

salvadore · February 5, 2014, 02:44 AM

Same with the Sportsman's here, except last time they had sold out of handguns while this time only about of third of their wall is empty and all of their rifle spots are full but no where near the variety as a year ago.

Jim243 · February 5, 2014, 03:49 AM

Where have all the flowers gone, long time passing, where have all the flowers gone, long time ago.

I am definitely showing my age (LOL).

Has anyone considered that all that powder is going into loaded ammo at Winchester, Remington and all the others. There is more profit margin on loaded ammo than on just the components. And commercial ammo is what first disappeared during the shortages.

There are/where only two powder mfgs in the United States one in Washington State and one in FL. And the last I heard was the one in the north west went up in flames, not sure they are back in business. The plant in FL was owned by Olin and they sold it to General Dynamics (big time military contractor). All other powder came from Scotland and Australia. Since the big names don't make their own powder but package it under their own labels.

I ask again, where have all the flowers gone?????

Jim

When you see all the shelves stocked with loaded ammunition, you will then see powder coming back. Just like the last time this happened, but of course there were 4,000,000 fewer shooters then (2009) And I am not sure how many new people got into reload during that time span, but I would guess at least a half a million did.

Mohave-Tec · February 5, 2014, 06:46 AM

^^^ This is a correct statement also.

**Mike Irwin** · February 5, 2014, 07:54 AM

Where's all the powder right now?

Simple.

It's in the loaded ammunition that companies have been frantically making, trying to keep up with an unprecedented demand.

For every extra pound of powder that has gone into loaded ammunition, that's a pound that hasn't gone into the reloading components market.

Powder makers have also ramped up production, but like the ammo makers, there's a limit to how far and fast they can make powder.

As the loaded ammo market cools down, powder manufacturers will be able to catch up.

mnoirot64 · February 5, 2014, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Irwin

As the loaded ammo market cools down, powder manufacturers will be able to catch up.

++1 - I agree 100%. I am concerned this may take quite a while - as are most of the other hand loaders. While many don't hoard reloading components, some do. When they see something they use, they buy two, or three instead of one (rhetorical comment). I have been careful to never buy more than two one pound containers of powder when I find it - which is typically around a sixty day supply. The exception being 4# and 8# kegs when there is one I use in that quantity.

**Mike Irwin** · February 5, 2014, 10:08 AM

I fortunately have plenty of powder, so I can ride this out for just as long as it takes.

Brian Pfleuger · February 5, 2014, 11:21 AM

That seems like a reasonable presumption and, if it's true, we should be seeing the powder supplies returning very soon. The big box stores have had shelves filled with almost all varieties of centerfire ammo for a good while now. A couple of weeks ago, the Cabela's in PA had nearly one side of an ENTIRE AISLE of .223/5.56 ammo, besides basically standard supply of every other cartridge I looked for.

**Mike Irwin** · February 5, 2014, 11:58 AM

Remember this important factoid, too...

That wonderful selection of powder that we see on the shelves? Dozens of choices?

Ammo companies use virtually none of that. Of, say, 50 choices available to us, they'll load ammo with maybe 5 of them.

The powder manufacturers have scaled back on powders that the commercial loaders DON'T use to concentrate on powders that they do use, so that knocks the hell out of the entire powder market.

rclark · February 5, 2014, 12:00 PM

Quote:

WAP (Winchester Action Pistol) runs out....

Note. That Ramshot Silhouette is the same stuff. Just an FYI.

As for topic ... When it start showing up on local shelves (in quantity) this the shortage is over... So far I haven't seen it around here. Very spotty. The stuff that is on the shelf is usually uncommon rifle powders which doesn't do me any good. That said, I have plenty 'right now' for another couple years at least for my revolvers. I stocked while I could.... And will restock when and if I find any! Just like with the .22LR shortage

....

This is the longest I've ever seen shortages go on. By now (winter time) we should be 'flooded' with cartons of bulk .22LR.... Nary a one on the shelves.

sir_n0thing · February 5, 2014, 01:25 PM

I've been seeing this around my area as well. Gander Mountain for example, had mountains of previously impossible to find ammo, 5.56/.223, 9MM, etc... they also had scads of primers... but exactly one single bottle of an obscure powder I have never personally heard of, though to be fair I only reload for 3 different cartridges.
I am a touch dismayed because I am wanting to add a new firearm to my collection, one which is typically expensive to feed factory ammo, so I figured i' d just load my own. Can't very well do that without powder!

rdmallory · February 5, 2014, 08:19 PM

Quote:

For every extra pound of powder that has gone into loaded ammunition, that's a pound that hasn't gone into the reloading components market.

They must be putting all the Varget in 22LR.

hfl73 · February 5, 2014, 08:35 PM

Last week Gunbroker had 4lbs. of W231 with 10 bids at $280. That's pretty desperate. I would have to find another hobby and wait it out before paying over $70 a pound.

Beentown71 · February 5, 2014, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdmallory

They must be putting all the Varget in 22LR.

I tried to sell extra Varget and IMR 4895 locally (quit loading 308) at my cost ($22 a pound) and no one has even asked about it.

Must be more powder around than I thought.

February 4, 2014, 08:43 PM	#54
mnoirot64 Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2013 Location: Clarksville, Tennessee Posts: 365	I just pulled up Midsouth's inventory of in-stock powders. Not many: Hodgdon H50BMG Hodgdon US 869 Hodgdon LEVERevolution Hodgdon Superformance IMR 7028 IMR 7828SSC IMR SR4759 VihtaVuori N105 Accurate LT-32 Norma 204 Norma MRP Norma 217 Accurate 4350 Pretty slim pickings. For the most part, all rifle powders. I would say the powder situation is not improving when a wholesaler has none to sell to LGS. __________________ Michael Noirot Life Member - NRA Clarksville, Tennessee

February 5, 2014, 01:02 AM	#62
Nick_C_S Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2013 Location: Idaho Posts: 5,522	Overall, things have improved. Primers can be found. Bullets are showing up some. Lead bullets are doing much better. Brass is popping up from time to time too. My LGS (Sportsmen's Warehouse) isn't the whole nation, true. My perspective is anectodal. Sportsmen's Warehouse does seem to be fairly well connected; and they've been able to get a small - but steady - supply of components throughout the shortage. But they've gotten very little powder in the last 6 or 8 weeks. And it's only mag rifle powder, with meager exceptions. There's other stores in the area too. Same thing. The Sportsmen's inventory truck shows up every Wed evening. I'm out there, standing in line with a about 100 others every Thursday morning, waiting for the doors to open. I get to see exactly what they get in stock every week. They haven't gotten a significant amount of powder in a long time. __________________ Gun control laws benefit only criminals and politicians - but then, I repeat myself. Life Member, National Rifle Association

February 5, 2014, 03:49 AM	#64
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	Where have all the flowers gone, long time passing, where have all the flowers gone, long time ago. I am definitely showing my age (LOL). Has anyone considered that all that powder is going into loaded ammo at Winchester, Remington and all the others. There is more profit margin on loaded ammo than on just the components. And commercial ammo is what first disappeared during the shortages. There are/where only two powder mfgs in the United States one in Washington State and one in FL. And the last I heard was the one in the north west went up in flames, not sure they are back in business. The plant in FL was owned by Olin and they sold it to General Dynamics (big time military contractor). All other powder came from Scotland and Australia. Since the big names don't make their own powder but package it under their own labels. I ask again, where have all the flowers gone????? Jim When you see all the shelves stocked with loaded ammunition, you will then see powder coming back. Just like the last time this happened, but of course there were 4,000,000 fewer shooters then (2009) And I am not sure how many new people got into reload during that time span, but I would guess at least a half a million did. __________________ Si vis pacem, para bellum Last edited by Jim243; February 5, 2014 at 04:04 AM.

February 5, 2014, 07:54 AM	#66
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	Where's all the powder right now? Simple. It's in the loaded ammunition that companies have been frantically making, trying to keep up with an unprecedented demand. For every extra pound of powder that has gone into loaded ammunition, that's a pound that hasn't gone into the reloading components market. Powder makers have also ramped up production, but like the ammo makers, there's a limit to how far and fast they can make powder. As the loaded ammo market cools down, powder manufacturers will be able to catch up. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

February 5, 2014, 10:08 AM	#68
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	I fortunately have plenty of powder, so I can ride this out for just as long as it takes. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

February 4, 2014, 07:02 PM	#51
mnoirot64 Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2013 Location: Clarksville, Tennessee Posts: 365	A quick search of the inventory at Midsouth yesterday yielded something like nine powders in stock! This is for one of the country's larger wholesalers. It's not better.

February 4, 2014, 08:38 PM	#52
Mohave-Tec Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2013 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 118	"Wonder why after the 2008/9 shortage everyone got all complacent? You'd think after things became available everyone would lay in a bit of a stash, take up reloading etc. especially if you're a big enough enthusiast to hang out in gun forums." People did not become complainant. The people who experienced it simple hung in there until they got their fill. The people who are in this thread and empty handed weren't here or were not nearly as involved in 2008 as they are now and are pretty much unaware of that shortage.

February 4, 2014, 08:39 PM	#53
Mohave-Tec Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2013 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 118	"I disagree. That shortage lasted perhaps 6 months and ended abruptly." That is just incorrect.

February 4, 2014, 08:46 PM	#55
Mohave-Tec Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2013 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 118	Salvadore, you've got stuff that hasn't had the lids off in 30 years. LOL. Good for you. I'm still loading pistols with WAP (Winchester Action Pistol) almost exclusively even though it hasn't been produced since something like 1994. When it runs out, in 5 or 6 more years I will start in on my TiteGroup.

February 4, 2014, 08:52 PM	#56
Mohave-Tec Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2013 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 118	mnoirot64, I'm a rifle man, I shoot long range. That list is pretty pitiful indeed. I would feel more comfortable with more rifle powder but I have an 8 mostly full of Varget and a full 8 of Benchmark and at least 3 pounds of H4831SC. I'll be fine until things ease up.

February 4, 2014, 10:17 PM	#57
salvadore Junior member Join Date: January 1, 2007 Location: Idaho Posts: 2,282	Mohave-Tec...You noticed eh, but 40% of my supplies were acquired between the first and second emaculation and this is some of the reloads I did this winter, I wont show you my rimfires accumulated between these eras due to the amount of mortification of flesh and pulling of hair.

February 4, 2014, 11:57 PM	#59
Sure Shot Mc Gee Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2012 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,876	Everyone I talk to still believes the shortage's are caused by hording & impulse buying. As far as I'm concerned that's a bogus answer and no longer applies to a shortage situation that's been on going for years. Simply put. Who is using the most powder these days. Certainly isn't me or any fellows I know from my gun club. So it has to be some other. Perhaps it's you!! Then again does (military) ring a bell for anyone.

February 4, 2014, 11:59 PM	#60
Mohave-Tec Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2013 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 118	I have to assume, next to none.

February 5, 2014, 02:44 AM	#63
salvadore Junior member Join Date: January 1, 2007 Location: Idaho Posts: 2,282	Same with the Sportsman's here, except last time they had sold out of handguns while this time only about of third of their wall is empty and all of their rifle spots are full but no where near the variety as a year ago.

February 5, 2014, 06:46 AM	#65
Mohave-Tec Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2013 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 118	^^^ This is a correct statement also.

February 5, 2014, 11:21 AM	#69
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	That seems like a reasonable presumption and, if it's true, we should be seeing the powder supplies returning very soon. The big box stores have had shelves filled with almost all varieties of centerfire ammo for a good while now. A couple of weeks ago, the Cabela's in PA had nearly one side of an ENTIRE AISLE of .223/5.56 ammo, besides basically standard supply of every other cartridge I looked for. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; February 5, 2014 at 12:37 PM. Reason: shelves

February 5, 2014, 11:58 AM	#70
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	Remember this important factoid, too... That wonderful selection of powder that we see on the shelves? Dozens of choices? Ammo companies use virtually none of that. Of, say, 50 choices available to us, they'll load ammo with maybe 5 of them. The powder manufacturers have scaled back on powders that the commercial loaders DON'T use to concentrate on powders that they do use, so that knocks the hell out of the entire powder market. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

February 5, 2014, 01:25 PM	#72
sir_n0thing Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2011 Location: WI, USA Posts: 281	I've been seeing this around my area as well. Gander Mountain for example, had mountains of previously impossible to find ammo, 5.56/.223, 9MM, etc... they also had scads of primers... but exactly one single bottle of an obscure powder I have never personally heard of, though to be fair I only reload for 3 different cartridges. I am a touch dismayed because I am wanting to add a new firearm to my collection, one which is typically expensive to feed factory ammo, so I figured i' d just load my own. Can't very well do that without powder!

February 5, 2014, 08:35 PM	#74
hfl73 Member Join Date: January 1, 2012 Posts: 16	Last week Gunbroker had 4lbs. of W231 with 10 bids at $280. That's pretty desperate. I would have to find another hobby and wait it out before paying over $70 a pound.