IDPA and a full dust cover

Old Shooter · March 29, 2005, 05:34 AM

At what point is a dust cover considered "full"? Can it be 1/8" from the barrel end or does it have to be an inch or more? I can't seem to find a ruling.

I just bought a CZ 97B and my club can't tell if I'm legal for CDP or not.

Whatchathink?

Jim Watson · March 29, 2005, 08:12 AM

I have never heard of the dust cover limitation being applied to anything but a 1911 mutant.

Since the full-length dust cover of a CZ97 is not a **modification** there being no short dust cover version, I think it should be OK. But I am just the MD of one small club distant from yours. If in doubt e-mail B'ville and get Dru to figure it out or ask Bill.

Old Shooter · March 29, 2005, 08:28 AM

Jim, Thanks for the input but if you mean contact IDPA, I've never had luck getting a response form them. According to the new rule book, they specifify "no dust cover" for CDP and ESP unless it can be fired in SSP then the dust cover is allowed. My gun can shoot DA but the weight restriction on SSP is 39 oz and my 97B weighs 40.

The dust cover on my gun is litterly 1/8" behind the slide.

Handy · March 29, 2005, 10:43 AM

I agree that this was intended to be a 1911 rule only, but sounds like they bollocksed up getting the rules to reflect that.

Is your gun light enough for any category?

Old Shooter · March 29, 2005, 11:00 AM

Since my gun can be shot DA, it would fit into SSP even with the full cover and therefore sidestep the no full dustcover rule BUT it needs to be 39oz and my gun is 40 oz.

The no dustcover rule for ESP or CDP does not specify gun type so if it was intended for 1911's, it does not state that.

So I'm back to the question of "at what point is a dust cover considered to be 'full'?"

Handy · March 29, 2005, 11:36 AM

We're both telling you that that is not considered a dust cover. Those are full length slide rails, not a dust cover. A dust cover is just that.

The rules are poorly written, but no one is going to call your full length rails a dust cover.

Is a 40 oz. pistol legal in CDP?

Old Shooter · March 29, 2005, 12:45 PM

Well that interpretation works for me!!

CDP is allowed up to 41 oz.

Hunter Customs · March 30, 2005, 10:52 AM

I'm not sure what the rules are in IDPA as I do not shoot the game. That being said I have several customers that do and from what they have told me a full dust cover is illegal. I'm not sure the CZ 97 would be considered a full dust cover gun. However your CZ 97 will be legal in the Big Dawg Steel match thats to be held in Lowell Iowa the last of July. I extend this invitation to all shooters that want to have a good time it will be a great match.The gun in this picture is a full dust cover gun.
Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

Old Shooter · March 30, 2005, 03:06 PM

The rules state that a full dust cover gun can be used in ESP or CDP if it also fits in SSP. SSP (among other things) has to be double action and CAN have a full dust cover but as of January 2006 there is a weght restriction of 39oz. Until January my 97B is legal because it is DA. After January it is not because it weighs 40oz.

The question comes down to what length dust cover constitutes "full". Mine is 1/8 to 3/16" behind the slide.

I am still waiting for IDPA to come back to me with an answer.

Old Shooter · March 30, 2005, 04:31 PM

I just heard back from IDPA. It is considered a full length dust cover. It can still be shot in SSP, ESP, and CDP until January '06 when the weight restriction goes into effect.

Oh well, there's still IPSC and as Hunter Customs says, there's also steel match.

Handy · March 30, 2005, 08:03 PM

Old Shooter,

Who did you contact? Phone number?

I'm wondering what those rulebook fools are up to this week. This "dust cover" thing is ridiculous - it's the way 97s and Baby Eagles are ALL made - there's no other option.

Old Shooter · March 30, 2005, 08:37 PM

I called the phone number in the rule book 870-545-3886. It took 5 phone calls to them and I never spoke to anyone other then the girl who answered the phone - I have no idea who told her what to say. I'm very dissapointed about this whole thing.

If there is a way to get a definative answer that would be great. I can see no reason why the gun should not be allowed but....

And they wonder why there is so many disgruntaled members.

BTW, what is the difference between a full length dust cover and full length rails?

Handy · March 31, 2005, 01:39 AM

A dust cover, like on a 1911, is just there to cover the recoil spring area. The slide rails stop around the trigger guard.

Full length rails are usually found only on guns with with external rails, like yours. The Baby Eagle also has them, and the Sig 210 rails extend a long way. The Sig 220 series are the only guns that come to mind with nearly full length internal rails, and the front of the slide is a little strange because of it.

I also left a message at IDPA HK. The HK P7s dust cover comes within 1/4" inch of the muzzle. Full length? Disqualified? HK USPs have checkered and stippled grips: Disqualified in SSP? They also have full dust covers, so that would cause them to be DQ'd in the other two categories. Is a Baby Eagle with a Witness SA trigger installed also DQ'd for ESP since it can't now be shot in SSP? Inquiring minds think the rule book is garbage.

I'm working on a new pistol that has full length slide rails. Is it already DQ'd?

Handy · March 31, 2005, 01:44 AM

Thinking more about this, I realized that a Glock also has a "full length dustcover". So the addition of a steel guide rod would also DQ this gun from all categories.

Old Shooter · March 31, 2005, 07:12 AM

Handy,
Thanks for taking up the cause. I would love a positive reslolution to this!

Hunter Customs · March 31, 2005, 09:49 AM

What about IDSA, what I hear from my customers is this group is setting it up right. If what I hear is true it's a game I would be interested in.
Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

Handy · March 31, 2005, 12:18 PM

Well, I talked to someone just now at IDPA. They are so confused!

I pointed out that a Springfield XD compact is SAO, and has a full length dust cover, so it is neither an SSP nor ESP... silence.

Anyway, they said Drew needs to call me when she gets back from vacation next week.

Old Shooter · March 31, 2005, 12:28 PM

........... and so the batton has been passed to a new (and perhaps better) runner. I'm anxious to hear the verdict. If it is ok to use the 97B we should get it in writting so that the next time anyone is challanged we have proof.

There is an RO that called me for using my STI in ESP. He made us stop our squad while we looked for a rule book and found him wrong (he would have been right last year)- you would think we were shooting this for big money instead of glory.

Handy · April 4, 2005, 10:41 AM

The CZ-97 is still out, due to it being an extended dust cover version of a model that normally doesn't have one (CZ-75). This is, of course, BS as the two share no parts.

Glocks and HKs are unaffected as the dust cover must be steel to be a problem.

Other guns with full length covers are fine if they are original designs.

I suppose you could always bob your dust cover - but I have no idea what length they'd consider legal.

I asked them to explain to Bill Wilson how this ruling creates an equipment race by eliminating otherwise viable .45 choices. But that probably won't go anywhere.

Handy · April 4, 2005, 03:16 PM

Another CZ based gun, the .45 Baby Eagle is also affected by the ruling.

I let both companies know.

Old Shooter · April 4, 2005, 03:27 PM

Handy, thanks for trying! I disagree on the fact that the 75 and the 97 are different guns but until the weight factor comes into play at the end of January '06, the gun can be shot SSP and therefore ESP or CDP by virtue of the DA.

My club will probably allow me to shoot it anyway but it would have been nice to know I was legal all the way. I really like the gun and it works better for me then my STI (which wasn't legal either - no barrel bushing).

Were they able to give you an answer about how far back the dust cover must go before being legal?

Handy · April 4, 2005, 03:42 PM

Sounds like any "extension" of the dust cover is forbidden. You'd have to ask them how to calculate that based on the CZ-75.

I do note in the parts diagram that the there is enough material on the bottom of the slide to crop you dust cover, should you wish.

Old Shooter · April 4, 2005, 08:41 PM

Yes but only about 1/2 inch before it hits the serial number.. I have while before I need to decide. I'm still legal until January 25th. when the weight restriction becomes "law".

There's aways IPSC Limited 10, and the new one - IDSA.

Old Shooter · April 21, 2005, 08:55 AM

I brought that up at the last match - it would be a modification of the frame and not allowed...so I'm legal only until January 25th or unless the rules change - AGAIN).

March 29, 2005, 05:34 AM	#1
Old Shooter Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2005 Location: Greenville/Anderson area of SC Posts: 281	IDPA and a full dust cover At what point is a dust cover considered "full"? Can it be 1/8" from the barrel end or does it have to be an inch or more? I can't seem to find a ruling. I just bought a CZ 97B and my club can't tell if I'm legal for CDP or not. Whatchathink?

March 29, 2005, 08:28 AM	#3
Old Shooter Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2005 Location: Greenville/Anderson area of SC Posts: 281	Jim, Thanks for the input but if you mean contact IDPA, I've never had luck getting a response form them. According to the new rule book, they specifify "no dust cover" for CDP and ESP unless it can be fired in SSP then the dust cover is allowed. My gun can shoot DA but the weight restriction on SSP is 39 oz and my 97B weighs 40. The dust cover on my gun is litterly 1/8" behind the slide. __________________ My life is based on a true story .... Sometimes I wish I could sit back and watch the things I do.

March 29, 2005, 11:00 AM	#5
Old Shooter Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2005 Location: Greenville/Anderson area of SC Posts: 281	Since my gun can be shot DA, it would fit into SSP even with the full cover and therefore sidestep the no full dustcover rule BUT it needs to be 39oz and my gun is 40 oz. The no dustcover rule for ESP or CDP does not specify gun type so if it was intended for 1911's, it does not state that. So I'm back to the question of "at what point is a dust cover considered to be 'full'?" __________________ My life is based on a true story .... Sometimes I wish I could sit back and watch the things I do.

March 29, 2005, 12:45 PM	#7
Old Shooter Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2005 Location: Greenville/Anderson area of SC Posts: 281	Well that interpretation works for me!! CDP is allowed up to 41 oz. __________________ My life is based on a true story .... Sometimes I wish I could sit back and watch the things I do.

March 30, 2005, 03:06 PM	#9
Old Shooter Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2005 Location: Greenville/Anderson area of SC Posts: 281	The rules state that a full dust cover gun can be used in ESP or CDP if it also fits in SSP. SSP (among other things) has to be double action and CAN have a full dust cover but as of January 2006 there is a weght restriction of 39oz. Until January my 97B is legal because it is DA. After January it is not because it weighs 40oz. The question comes down to what length dust cover constitutes "full". Mine is 1/8 to 3/16" behind the slide. I am still waiting for IDPA to come back to me with an answer. __________________ My life is based on a true story .... Sometimes I wish I could sit back and watch the things I do.

March 29, 2005, 08:12 AM	#2
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	I have never heard of the dust cover limitation being applied to anything but a 1911 mutant. Since the full-length dust cover of a CZ97 is not a modification there being no short dust cover version, I think it should be OK. But I am just the MD of one small club distant from yours. If in doubt e-mail B'ville and get Dru to figure it out or ask Bill.

March 29, 2005, 10:43 AM	#4
Handy Junior member Join Date: August 31, 2001 Posts: 8,785	I agree that this was intended to be a 1911 rule only, but sounds like they bollocksed up getting the rules to reflect that. Is your gun light enough for any category?

March 29, 2005, 11:36 AM	#6
Handy Junior member Join Date: August 31, 2001 Posts: 8,785	We're both telling you that that is not considered a dust cover. Those are full length slide rails, not a dust cover. A dust cover is just that. The rules are poorly written, but no one is going to call your full length rails a dust cover. Is a 40 oz. pistol legal in CDP?

March 30, 2005, 10:52 AM	#8
Hunter Customs Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2005 Location: Osborn, Missouri Posts: 2,697	I'm not sure what the rules are in IDPA as I do not shoot the game. That being said I have several customers that do and from what they have told me a full dust cover is illegal. I'm not sure the CZ 97 would be considered a full dust cover gun. However your CZ 97 will be legal in the Big Dawg Steel match thats to be held in Lowell Iowa the last of July. I extend this invitation to all shooters that want to have a good time it will be a great match.The gun in this picture is a full dust cover gun. Regards Bob Hunter www.huntercustoms.com

March 30, 2005, 04:31 PM	#10
Old Shooter Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2005 Location: Greenville/Anderson area of SC Posts: 281	It's full length I just heard back from IDPA. It is considered a full length dust cover. It can still be shot in SSP, ESP, and CDP until January '06 when the weight restriction goes into effect. Oh well, there's still IPSC and as Hunter Customs says, there's also steel match. __________________ My life is based on a true story .... Sometimes I wish I could sit back and watch the things I do.

March 30, 2005, 08:03 PM	#11
Handy Junior member Join Date: August 31, 2001 Posts: 8,785	Old Shooter, Who did you contact? Phone number? I'm wondering what those rulebook fools are up to this week. This "dust cover" thing is ridiculous - it's the way 97s and Baby Eagles are ALL made - there's no other option.

March 30, 2005, 08:37 PM	#12
Old Shooter Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2005 Location: Greenville/Anderson area of SC Posts: 281	I called the phone number in the rule book 870-545-3886. It took 5 phone calls to them and I never spoke to anyone other then the girl who answered the phone - I have no idea who told her what to say. I'm very dissapointed about this whole thing. If there is a way to get a definative answer that would be great. I can see no reason why the gun should not be allowed but.... And they wonder why there is so many disgruntaled members. BTW, what is the difference between a full length dust cover and full length rails? __________________ My life is based on a true story .... Sometimes I wish I could sit back and watch the things I do.

March 31, 2005, 01:39 AM	#13
Handy Junior member Join Date: August 31, 2001 Posts: 8,785	A dust cover, like on a 1911, is just there to cover the recoil spring area. The slide rails stop around the trigger guard. Full length rails are usually found only on guns with with external rails, like yours. The Baby Eagle also has them, and the Sig 210 rails extend a long way. The Sig 220 series are the only guns that come to mind with nearly full length internal rails, and the front of the slide is a little strange because of it. I also left a message at IDPA HK. The HK P7s dust cover comes within 1/4" inch of the muzzle. Full length? Disqualified? HK USPs have checkered and stippled grips: Disqualified in SSP? They also have full dust covers, so that would cause them to be DQ'd in the other two categories. Is a Baby Eagle with a Witness SA trigger installed also DQ'd for ESP since it can't now be shot in SSP? Inquiring minds think the rule book is garbage. I'm working on a new pistol that has full length slide rails. Is it already DQ'd?

March 31, 2005, 01:44 AM	#14
Handy Junior member Join Date: August 31, 2001 Posts: 8,785	Thinking more about this, I realized that a Glock also has a "full length dustcover". So the addition of a steel guide rod would also DQ this gun from all categories.

March 31, 2005, 07:12 AM	#15
Old Shooter Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2005 Location: Greenville/Anderson area of SC Posts: 281	Handy, Thanks for taking up the cause. I would love a positive reslolution to this! __________________ My life is based on a true story .... Sometimes I wish I could sit back and watch the things I do.

March 31, 2005, 09:49 AM	#16
Hunter Customs Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2005 Location: Osborn, Missouri Posts: 2,697	What about IDSA, what I hear from my customers is this group is setting it up right. If what I hear is true it's a game I would be interested in. Regards Bob Hunter www.huntercustoms.com

March 31, 2005, 12:18 PM	#17
Handy Junior member Join Date: August 31, 2001 Posts: 8,785	Well, I talked to someone just now at IDPA. They are so confused! I pointed out that a Springfield XD compact is SAO, and has a full length dust cover, so it is neither an SSP nor ESP... silence. Anyway, they said Drew needs to call me when she gets back from vacation next week.

March 31, 2005, 12:28 PM	#18
Old Shooter Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2005 Location: Greenville/Anderson area of SC Posts: 281	........... and so the batton has been passed to a new (and perhaps better) runner. I'm anxious to hear the verdict. If it is ok to use the 97B we should get it in writting so that the next time anyone is challanged we have proof. There is an RO that called me for using my STI in ESP. He made us stop our squad while we looked for a rule book and found him wrong (he would have been right last year)- you would think we were shooting this for big money instead of glory. __________________ My life is based on a true story .... Sometimes I wish I could sit back and watch the things I do.

April 4, 2005, 10:41 AM	#19
Handy Junior member Join Date: August 31, 2001 Posts: 8,785	The CZ-97 is still out, due to it being an extended dust cover version of a model that normally doesn't have one (CZ-75). This is, of course, BS as the two share no parts. Glocks and HKs are unaffected as the dust cover must be steel to be a problem. Other guns with full length covers are fine if they are original designs. I suppose you could always bob your dust cover - but I have no idea what length they'd consider legal. I asked them to explain to Bill Wilson how this ruling creates an equipment race by eliminating otherwise viable .45 choices. But that probably won't go anywhere.

April 4, 2005, 03:16 PM	#20
Handy Junior member Join Date: August 31, 2001 Posts: 8,785	Another CZ based gun, the .45 Baby Eagle is also affected by the ruling. I let both companies know.

April 4, 2005, 03:27 PM	#21
Old Shooter Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2005 Location: Greenville/Anderson area of SC Posts: 281	Handy, thanks for trying! I disagree on the fact that the 75 and the 97 are different guns but until the weight factor comes into play at the end of January '06, the gun can be shot SSP and therefore ESP or CDP by virtue of the DA. My club will probably allow me to shoot it anyway but it would have been nice to know I was legal all the way. I really like the gun and it works better for me then my STI (which wasn't legal either - no barrel bushing). Were they able to give you an answer about how far back the dust cover must go before being legal? __________________ My life is based on a true story .... Sometimes I wish I could sit back and watch the things I do.

April 4, 2005, 03:42 PM	#22
Handy Junior member Join Date: August 31, 2001 Posts: 8,785	Sounds like any "extension" of the dust cover is forbidden. You'd have to ask them how to calculate that based on the CZ-75. I do note in the parts diagram that the there is enough material on the bottom of the slide to crop you dust cover, should you wish.

April 4, 2005, 08:41 PM	#23
Old Shooter Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2005 Location: Greenville/Anderson area of SC Posts: 281	Yes but only about 1/2 inch before it hits the serial number.. I have while before I need to decide. I'm still legal until January 25th. when the weight restriction becomes "law". There's aways IPSC Limited 10, and the new one - IDSA. __________________ My life is based on a true story .... Sometimes I wish I could sit back and watch the things I do.

April 21, 2005, 08:55 AM	#24
Old Shooter Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2005 Location: Greenville/Anderson area of SC Posts: 281	Bob the cover I brought that up at the last match - it would be a modification of the frame and not allowed...so I'm legal only until January 25th or unless the rules change - AGAIN). __________________ My life is based on a true story .... Sometimes I wish I could sit back and watch the things I do.