Yet another 9mm vs .357 Sig - Page 2

tipoc · March 9, 2018, 12:13 PM

Folks can always look at the links I posted above and see this for themselves

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/58...heck-box-of-50

1025 fps from a 4" barrel. Hardcast lead from Double Tap. 985 fps from a 3.5" barrel. A nice hunting load for select game.

tipoc

hagar · March 9, 2018, 01:11 PM

The 357 Sig has it's place, I bought a Sig P229 in the early 90's before you could even find ammo for it. They advised against using 40S&W cases for reloading, but I did it anyway, and had good results. I got groups with my handloads at 100 yards that matched what I got with most factory 40's at 25.

Personally I think it knocks the socks off the 9, 40 or the pathetic 45.

I shot a few wounded coyotes with the 229, and they always dropped like a rock. The 9 did not do as well, and the 357 mag was too loud.

But I would not advice anybody to buy one unless they reload.

HighValleyRanch · March 9, 2018, 02:51 PM

Cool, options are always good!

jmr40 · March 9, 2018, 03:58 PM

In the real world 357 magnum revolvers shooting 125 gr bullets from 4" barrels EARNED a reputation for being one of, if not the best loads for law enforcement back in the 1980's. While those loads show about 1500 fps from 8" test barrels, real world speeds from 4" barrels was about 1300-1350 fps.

The better 9mm+p 124 gr loads shot from 4" barrels will reach 1250 fps and 1300 fps from 5" barrels. There just isn't that much difference and when you factor in ammo costs, recoil and 15-17 rounds of ammo vs 5-6 rounds of ammo I think the 9mm is the clear winner as long as you limit it to bullets in the 124/125 gr range.

If you want or need heavier bullets the 357 mag wins. BUT, if you move up to 40 S&W firing 155-180 gr bullets it also comes VERY close to real world 357 mag performance with those bullet weights in 4" barrels. If you are willing to carry revolver with a 6" or longer barrel then 357 mag is the clear winner with any bullet weight.

Which brings us to 357 Sig. It does close the 50-100 fps gap between 9mm+p and 357 mag. It truly does equal what you can do with 357 mag revolvers. For me it isn't worth the small increase in speed to have more cost, recoil, and reduced ammo capacity.

And I'm sure someone will eventually bring this up so I'll do it now. In 2018 there are some 357 mag revolver loads that will exceed what can be done with 9mm+p or 357Sig. Even from shorter 3-4" barrels. But there is no evidence that they are any more effective than the older loads at around 1300 fps. That is the load that earned 357 mag it's reputation as a fight stopper.

Lohman446 · March 9, 2018, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Which brings us to 357 Sig. It does close the 50-100 fps gap between 9mm+p and 357 mag. It truly does equal what you can do with 357 mag revolvers

Only if you add the caveat "with one particular load". Its like the 10MM equally one particular load of the .41 Magnum. Matching the performance of one load does not equate to matching the performance of the cartridge.

Brownstone322 · March 9, 2018, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lohman446

I like odd rounds and I like bottleneck pistol rounds just because they are cool.

Man, I love candor like this. I think lotsa people shoot stuff just because it's cool and fun; just not so many people seem to admit it. I'll be the first one to say that I chose some of my handguns -- Colt Lightweight Commander/9mm, Beretta M9, CZ PCR -- because (to me, anyway), they're just plain cool. No regrets.

When I was a teenager, the first handgun I ever shot in my life was a Russian Tokarev with the 7.62 x 25 necked-down cartridge. Back then, I didn't even appreciate how cool that was -- the definition of light and hot (85 grains at maybe 1,500 fps). How cool is that?

I dunno if anyone even shoots the 7.62 x 25 anymore, but, man, I'd like to give that another whirl.

JGKC9AYC · March 9, 2018, 06:22 PM

I don’t plan on reloading, so that’s out of the question.
I’m not an outdoorsman, so shooting 4-legged animals is out of the question.
I’m retired and on a fixed income so that comes into play.
I’m not a stranger to guns, qualifying annually for the DOC for well over 20 years.
The P229 fits my hand well. I previously owned a Glock 21 and it fit my hand as well.

disseminator · March 11, 2018, 01:36 AM

Quote:

I don’t plan on reloading, so that’s out of the question.
I’m not an outdoorsman, so shooting 4-legged animals is out of the question.
I’m retired and on a fixed income so that comes into play.
I’m not a stranger to guns, qualifying annually for the DOC for well over 20 years.
The P229 fits my hand well. I previously owned a Glock 21 and it fit my hand as well.

I have an M&P and a P226 that fire the 357 SIG and I hand-load my own range ammo so cost is much less of an issue for me. If self defense is your primary use then the 9mm is a no brainer. I also have a Glock 20 so I could carry any of the hi power rounds if I thought they were best but I don't. I carry a P226 Legion in 9mm.

tipoc · March 11, 2018, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Most of the threads I found while searching were 6-8 years old. Perhaps prices have changed by now.
Between a Glock 19 and a Sig P229 I was thinking about for CC, i've noticed the price was usually (most of the time) higher for .357 Sig for target practice. When it came to self defense rounds, there was little difference, assuming one was looking at similar ammo (i.e. Speer Gold Dot).
I'm not sure on recoil of a +P fired out of a polymer gun vs. a .357 Sig fired from a steel gun.
With round capacity almost equal, is the .357 Sig the better round considering everything?

And:

Quote:

I don’t plan on reloading, so that’s out of the question.
I’m not an outdoorsman, so shooting 4-legged animals is out of the question.
I’m retired and on a fixed income so that comes into play.
I’m not a stranger to guns, qualifying annually for the DOC for well over 20 years.
The P229 fits my hand well. I previously owned a Glock 21 and it fit my hand as well.

It should be clear that folks here advocate for the 9mm as the way for you to go. Based on your criteria it's also the clear choice. Get the Glock 19. But that's advice from here, in the end you'll get what you really want. Which, it looks like, is the Sig. Sometimes you get what you need and later get what you want. But it also matters on what you need and want the gun for and how urgent that need.

If you have been qualifying for the Department of Corrections handgun use what gun and caliber were you using?

tipoc

Poohgyrr · March 11, 2018, 01:57 PM

FWIW, if you can buy ammo via mail order, by watching and shopping carefully, comparable prices can be found & both 45ACP & 357Sig can be bought for good prices. 9X19 is usually cheapest of common commercial ammo, no argument there. And it has worked around the world.

Street results, from talking with actual people who have shoot violent felons, with standard 357Sig vs +P/+P+9X19 vs other rounds, reveals standard 357Sig delivers very noticeable differences in real life shootings vs even the +P+ 9mm.

Our hunting fields are another example of why we compare paper theory with real life results; looking to see how they compare and contrast.

The increase in indoor muzzle blast from 357Sig is also noticeable. Recoil is another subjective thing.

Each person has their own finances, rules & regulations, legal issues, medical and family concerns, etc.... I prefer each person look around, and make their own choice.

FYI: http://dailycaller.com/2016/09/29/ma...g-the-357-sig/

FWIW,
If you liked the G21, a G30SF with 21 mags and XGrip adaptor might be worth considering. In 9X19, a G19 with 17 mags and XGrips, is sort of a “pre G19X”.

RGRacing · March 11, 2018, 02:29 PM

I fired one once. I immediately got a set of six-pack abs, my hair all grew back and I suddenly knew all the lyrics to every Ted Nugent song ever recorded. Wouldn't have been a bad thing, but it got all three of the women standing nearby pregnant.

They are fun at the range - the looks you get.

22TCM is a fun one too.

Ruger45LC · March 11, 2018, 03:50 PM

Here's some 357 Sig data using actual .357" Hornady XTP's (charges not given but if you want them, PM me).

From Gen4 Glock 23 w/KKM 4.5" 357 SIG barrel
125gr XTP 1.140": 1,618 AVG - 37.42 ES - 26.17 SD
140gr XTP 1.140": 1,456 AVG - 30.84 ES - 21.93 SD
158gr XTP 1.140": 1,388 AVG - 8.12 ES - 5.65 SD

The practice ammo for the 357 SIG is higher, but if you want a good performer, the 357 SIG has a lot of potential.

disseminator · March 11, 2018, 10:58 PM

Quote:

From Gen4 Glock 23 w/KKM 4.5" 357 SIG barrel
125gr XTP 1.140": 1,618 AVG - 37.42 ES - 26.17 SD
140gr XTP 1.140": 1,456 AVG - 30.84 ES - 21.93 SD
158gr XTP 1.140": 1,388 AVG - 8.12 ES - 5.65 SD

IMO, there is virtually NO chance that those loads are within SAAMI pressure max for the 357 SIG. I would go as far as to say that you are putting yourself and others in grave danger with those loads.

You may say I'm nuts, and you've shot a million of 'em and such, but the XTP is a bullet known to make higher pressures than other bullets due to the pure copper jackets on them. If you study Hornady load data for their bullets and compare it to other manufacturers you can see that one generally uses less powder with an XTP vs other softer bullets like the Speer DCHP for example.

Add to that that you are using .357" bullets in a .355" bore and it's a recipe for disaster.

Be safe.

74A95 · March 11, 2018, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by disseminator

IMO, there is virtually NO chance that those loads are within SAAMI pressure max for the 357 SIG. I would go as far as to say that you are putting yourself and others in grave danger with those loads.

the XTP is a bullet known to make higher pressures than other bullets due to the pure copper jackets on them. If you study Hornady load data for their bullets and compare it to other manufacturers you can see that one generally uses less powder with an XTP vs other softer bullets like the Speer DCHP for example. Do you have pressure test data to support this?

Add to that that you are using .357" bullets in a .355" bore and it's a recipe for disaster. Do you have pressure test data to support this?

Be safe.

Do you know that the barrel in question has a .355" groove diameter?

Lohman446 · March 12, 2018, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Street results, from talking with actual people who have shoot violent felons, with standard 357Sig vs +P/+P+9X19 vs other rounds, reveals standard 357Sig delivers very noticeable differences in real life shootings vs even the +P+ 9mm.

Citation required. How many shootings have been involved where someone has shot someone with a .357 SIG and a 9MM and been able to tell the difference? How have we controlled for confounding variables? How many shootings utilizing a .357 SIG are even recorded?

Fishbed77 · March 12, 2018, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Street results, from talking with actual people who have shoot violent felons, with standard 357Sig vs +P/+P+9X19 vs other rounds, reveals standard 357Sig delivers very noticeable differences in real life shootings vs even the +P+ 9mm.

Quote:

Citation required. How many shootings have been involved where someone has shot someone with a .357 SIG and a 9MM and been able to tell the difference? How have we controlled for confounding variables? How many shootings utilizing a .357 SIG are even recorded?

More proof that anyone can say anything on the internet.

These "actual people" have shot violent felons with .357 SIG and +P+ 9mm for comparison? I'm with Lohman446 on this one.

tipoc · March 12, 2018, 10:36 AM

The other factor to keep in mind about the .357 Sig is that it is a niche caliber in the same way that the 38 Super and the 10mm are.

The .357 Sig was never widely adopted by law enforcement in the U.S. or anywhere else. It is likely currently used by fewer law enforcement agencies in the U.S. than 20 years ago. In the U.S. the key to a successful handgun round has been it's widespread adoption by law enforcement or the military. The .357 Sig was introduced about 1994 (about 4 years after the 40 S&W rolled in like a runaway train). It will likely always be a niche cartridge.

This is one reason that ammo for it is more expensive, particularly practice ammo.

I have maybe 4 pistols in 9mm. I have one Sig P229 that I can use both 40 S&W and .357 Sig with. I'm playing with both rounds. The Sig is hands down the best gun to use the Sig round from that I've experienced, same with the 40 S&W. Glocks were not built specifically for these rounds until the Gen 5 guns IIRC.

tipoc

Bottom Gun · March 12, 2018, 01:46 PM

The .357 Sig round has become my favorite handgun cartridge. I use it in my P226, P229 and P239 pistols. I carried a 1911 and a S&W 629 for nearly half a century but decided I wanted something flatter shooting with lower recoil.
I did a bit of horse trading with one of the local Border Patrol guys and ended up with a P226 and a P239, both in .40 S&W. I liked the pistols but was unimpressed by the .40 S&W cartridge. So, I swapped the .40 S&W barrels for .357 Sig barrels in both pistols. Before I finished shooting the first magazine of .357 Sig, I knew I had found my new carry cartridge. I bought a P229, then another. . . . .
Much of my time is spent out on the trail these days so I am likely to encounter large 4 legged predators in addition to the 2 legged border crossers.
After a large black bear approached to within 25 yd of my position while I was picnicking, I decided I needed something that would give me better penetration than the Gold Dots that filled my magazine at the time. I was able to discourage this bear by blowing the horn on my ATV and was thankful I didn’t have to defend myself since I wasn’t sure those Gold Dots were the right bullets in that situation.
I have since loaded up some of the Lehigh Defense Xtreme Defense and Xtreme Penetrator bullets. These are the monolithic copper bullets that use the new fluid transfer technology. I use them now for carry loads in both .357 Sig and 9MM. I feel well armed with 13 rd of this stuff inside my P229.
The key to enjoying the .357 Sig round is reloading. If you don’t reload, you won’t enjoy this cartridge very much. Factory ammo is expensive and variety is limited as is the case with many cartridges.
Reloading opens the door to a whole new world because it allows you to make ammo that nobody else produces like my 90 gr XTP or 90 gr Gold Dot varmint loads. You seldom see any .357 Sig factory ammo with bullets lighter than 125 gr and that’s too bad because the .357 Sig is fun to shoot with lighter bullets. One of my favorite plinking loads is a 115 gr Hornady HAP with AA#9 or Bullseye powder.
Some guys will say otherwise but reloading this Sig cartridge is no more difficult than loading any other bottleneck cartridge.
So, while it’s not the biggest or baddest cartridge out there, it remains a flat shooting, hard hitting cartridge with slightly more recoil and muzzle blast than a 9MM. I like it better than the .38 Supers I used to shoot. I’ll take a bottleneck case over a straight wall case for reliability any day. I have NOT been able to cause a jam in any of my .357 Sig pistols despite repeated attempts.
I’ll end by saying that I’m sold on the .357 Sig. It’s a perfect fit for me. Your mileage may vary.

Lohman446 · March 12, 2018, 01:58 PM

As an interesting aside one should look at the .40 Super - at one point proposed at the .40 SIG. Far too niche of a round to be useful to the OP but interesting none the less

[/quote]I have NOT been able to cause a jam in any of my .357 Sig pistols despite repeated attempts. [/quote]

Have you been able to create jams with more "common" cartridges in firearms that are equally maintained and of similar quality? I get the theoretical advantage of the bottleneck in feeding but is it really a problem we need to try to overcome?

disseminator · March 12, 2018, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by disseminator:
IMO, there is virtually NO chance that those loads are within SAAMI pressure max for the 357 SIG. I would go as far as to say that you are putting yourself and others in grave danger with those loads.

the XTP is a bullet known to make higher pressures than other bullets due to the pure copper jackets on them. If you study Hornady load data for their bullets and compare it to other manufacturers you can see that one generally uses less powder with an XTP vs other softer bullets like the Speer DCHP for example. Do you have pressure test data to support this?

Add to that that you are using .357" bullets in a .355" bore and it's a recipe for disaster. Do you have pressure test data to support this?

Be safe.

Do you know that the barrel in question has a .355" groove diameter?

While this has almost nothing to do with the OP's question, I'll address it since I brought it up.

So what you are saying is that you have a custom throat-ed barrel that is reamed out to shoot .357" bullets from a 357 SIG firearm (.355" bore), and that you are using bullets meant for revolvers in your semi automatic, and you are wondering if I have any pressure data to back up my claim that you are over SAAMI pressure?

First, these are advanced ideas that don't really belong in a thread by a new shooter asking what caliber he should buy for an EDC weapon.
(9mm is the answer)

Second, how useful do you think your highly specialized application is to the OP's question? I don't mean to sound like a jerk, it's just that it's way over the level of the question asked here.

If you want, I'd like to hear more about your loads but maybe over in the Reloading forum would be better than here.

Take care.

Johny Smith · March 12, 2018, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JGKC9AYC

With round capacity almost equal, is the .357 Sig the better round considering everything?

That all depends on your most likely scenario. It's a great round for the highway patrol horrible round for the local cops. Hence why they carry and the others don't.

If your daily routine is more soft tissue than hard barrier go with the .45 a.c.p. it was design to put a person on dope on their a-- and it does a stellar job and on average most can handle it. But the .40 S&W is well proven as well and a similar size hole and yes size really does matter.

I rock with a .357 magnum because I'm a revolver guy and it's the most powerful round I can handle and carry easily. Problem is it's no good if it dumps all it's energy on the street pole behind the thugs body.

74A95 · March 12, 2018, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by disseminator

While this has almost nothing to do with the OP's question, I'll address it since I brought it up.

So what you are saying is that you have a custom throat-ed barrel that is reamed out to shoot .357" bullets from a 357 SIG firearm (.355" bore), and that you are using bullets meant for revolvers in your semi automatic, and you are wondering if I have any pressure data to back up my claim that you are over SAAMI pressure? Correct. Do you? Yes or no.

First, these are advanced ideas that don't really belong in a thread by a new shooter asking what caliber he should buy for an EDC weapon. If it's too advanced, why did you bring it up in the first place?

Second, how useful do you think your highly specialized application is to the OP's question? I don't mean to sound like a jerk, it's just that it's way over the level of the question asked here. Again, why did you bring it up in the first place?

If you want, I'd like to hear more about your loads but maybe over in the Reloading forum would be better than here.

Take care.

I don't have a custom throated 357 SIG barrel, but my generic 357 SIG barrel accepts cases loaded with .357" revolver bullets with no problem.

Please answer my question. Do you have actual pressure tested data to back up your statements? Yes or no. If you don't, just say so. If you do, please share it with us. We'd love to learn about it.

Believe it or not, people shoot revolver bullets from their semi-auto pistols chambered for semi-auto calibers. Why? Some people find them more accurate. Schuemann barrels recommends a jacketed bullet of .001 to .002 inches larger, and lead bullets .002 to .003 inches larger than the groove diameter for the best accuracy. See their documentation here: http://www.schuemann.com/Portals/0/D...n%20manual.pdf Read point #8.

Cosmodragoon · March 13, 2018, 12:03 AM

These options propel a similar projectile at different speeds. Recoil and destructive power both tend to increase with the increased velocity. The faster projectile will generally have a penetrative advantage but bullet construction does a lot to control penetration. As far as construction, higher velocity can mean more reliable expansion for hollow-points.

Load and construction matter a lot in comparing calibers. One thing to consider about 9mm is that it is old and has come a long way. If you compare regular target ammo in 9mm versus .357 Sig, you'll notice a big difference. When you start comparing 9mm +p (etc.), that difference gets a little smaller. The issue is that the difference also starts to shrink in areas where it would have been an advantage for 9mm, such as in cost and recoil. (I also wonder how much regular stress some 9mm pistols are designed to handle.) In my limited experience, there seems to be less variance with .357 Sig and the guns all seem designed for it.

So at the end of the day, I'm left with two conclusions. First, standard-pressure 9mm is great for plinking and superb in smaller polymer-framed carry guns. Second, .357 Sig is great in full-sized or duty guns and could even work as a woods gun in a lot of places. Whatever your choice, just make sure you have the right ammo for the job.

Lohman446 · March 13, 2018, 07:23 AM

You know I was finally minimizing my caliber selection and now I want a Glock 32...

I blame this thread

saleen322 · March 13, 2018, 08:12 AM

Here is a small comparison chart of some 9mm and 357 Sig rounds. The last one listed is the round that Speer developed for LE use. It is interesting that the LE round has a MV of less than 1000 fps and performs about ideally in all the tests; penetrates far enough without over penetration in any test medium.

March 9, 2018, 12:13 PM	#26
tipoc Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2004 Location: Redwood City, Ca. Posts: 4,114	Folks can always look at the links I posted above and see this for themselves https://www.midwayusa.com/product/58...heck-box-of-50 1025 fps from a 4" barrel. Hardcast lead from Double Tap. 985 fps from a 3.5" barrel. A nice hunting load for select game. tipoc __________________ 1. All guns are always loaded. 2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. 3. Keep your finger off the trigger till you are ready to shoot. 4. Identify your target and know what is beyond it.

March 9, 2018, 01:11 PM	#27
hagar Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2000 Location: Colombia, SC Posts: 745	The 357 Sig has it's place, I bought a Sig P229 in the early 90's before you could even find ammo for it. They advised against using 40S&W cases for reloading, but I did it anyway, and had good results. I got groups with my handloads at 100 yards that matched what I got with most factory 40's at 25. Personally I think it knocks the socks off the 9, 40 or the pathetic 45. I shot a few wounded coyotes with the 229, and they always dropped like a rock. The 9 did not do as well, and the 357 mag was too loud. But I would not advice anybody to buy one unless they reload. __________________ I don't have time for busy people

March 9, 2018, 02:51 PM	#28
HighValleyRanch Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2005 Posts: 4,066	Cool, options are always good! __________________ From the sweet grass to the slaughter house; From birth until death; We travel between these two eternities........from 'Broken Trail"

March 9, 2018, 03:58 PM	#29
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,805	In the real world 357 magnum revolvers shooting 125 gr bullets from 4" barrels EARNED a reputation for being one of, if not the best loads for law enforcement back in the 1980's. While those loads show about 1500 fps from 8" test barrels, real world speeds from 4" barrels was about 1300-1350 fps. The better 9mm+p 124 gr loads shot from 4" barrels will reach 1250 fps and 1300 fps from 5" barrels. There just isn't that much difference and when you factor in ammo costs, recoil and 15-17 rounds of ammo vs 5-6 rounds of ammo I think the 9mm is the clear winner as long as you limit it to bullets in the 124/125 gr range. If you want or need heavier bullets the 357 mag wins. BUT, if you move up to 40 S&W firing 155-180 gr bullets it also comes VERY close to real world 357 mag performance with those bullet weights in 4" barrels. If you are willing to carry revolver with a 6" or longer barrel then 357 mag is the clear winner with any bullet weight. Which brings us to 357 Sig. It does close the 50-100 fps gap between 9mm+p and 357 mag. It truly does equal what you can do with 357 mag revolvers. For me it isn't worth the small increase in speed to have more cost, recoil, and reduced ammo capacity. And I'm sure someone will eventually bring this up so I'll do it now. In 2018 there are some 357 mag revolver loads that will exceed what can be done with 9mm+p or 357Sig. Even from shorter 3-4" barrels. But there is no evidence that they are any more effective than the older loads at around 1300 fps. That is the load that earned 357 mag it's reputation as a fight stopper. __________________ "If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong" Winston Churchill

March 11, 2018, 01:57 PM	#35
Poohgyrr Senior Member Join Date: June 26, 2002 Location: Northern CA Posts: 158	FWIW, if you can buy ammo via mail order, by watching and shopping carefully, comparable prices can be found & both 45ACP & 357Sig can be bought for good prices. 9X19 is usually cheapest of common commercial ammo, no argument there. And it has worked around the world. Street results, from talking with actual people who have shoot violent felons, with standard 357Sig vs +P/+P+9X19 vs other rounds, reveals standard 357Sig delivers very noticeable differences in real life shootings vs even the +P+ 9mm. Our hunting fields are another example of why we compare paper theory with real life results; looking to see how they compare and contrast. The increase in indoor muzzle blast from 357Sig is also noticeable. Recoil is another subjective thing. Each person has their own finances, rules & regulations, legal issues, medical and family concerns, etc.... I prefer each person look around, and make their own choice. FYI: http://dailycaller.com/2016/09/29/ma...g-the-357-sig/ FWIW, If you liked the G21, a G30SF with 21 mags and XGrip adaptor might be worth considering. In 9X19, a G19 with 17 mags and XGrips, is sort of a “pre G19X”. __________________ John Northern CA "Life brings sorrows and joys alike. It is what a man does with them - not what they do to him - that is the true test of his mettle." T. Roosevelt Last edited by Poohgyrr; March 11, 2018 at 07:42 PM.

March 9, 2018, 06:22 PM	#32
JGKC9AYC Member Join Date: February 2, 2018 Posts: 22	I don’t plan on reloading, so that’s out of the question. I’m not an outdoorsman, so shooting 4-legged animals is out of the question. I’m retired and on a fixed income so that comes into play. I’m not a stranger to guns, qualifying annually for the DOC for well over 20 years. The P229 fits my hand well. I previously owned a Glock 21 and it fit my hand as well.

March 11, 2018, 02:29 PM	#36
RGRacing Member Join Date: September 27, 2017 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 50	Use with caution I fired one once. I immediately got a set of six-pack abs, my hair all grew back and I suddenly knew all the lyrics to every Ted Nugent song ever recorded. Wouldn't have been a bad thing, but it got all three of the women standing nearby pregnant. They are fun at the range - the looks you get. 22TCM is a fun one too. __________________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

March 11, 2018, 03:50 PM	#37
Ruger45LC Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 768	Here's some 357 Sig data using actual .357" Hornady XTP's (charges not given but if you want them, PM me). From Gen4 Glock 23 w/KKM 4.5" 357 SIG barrel 125gr XTP 1.140": 1,618 AVG - 37.42 ES - 26.17 SD 140gr XTP 1.140": 1,456 AVG - 30.84 ES - 21.93 SD 158gr XTP 1.140": 1,388 AVG - 8.12 ES - 5.65 SD The practice ammo for the 357 SIG is higher, but if you want a good performer, the 357 SIG has a lot of potential.

March 12, 2018, 10:36 AM	#42
tipoc Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2004 Location: Redwood City, Ca. Posts: 4,114	The other factor to keep in mind about the .357 Sig is that it is a niche caliber in the same way that the 38 Super and the 10mm are. The .357 Sig was never widely adopted by law enforcement in the U.S. or anywhere else. It is likely currently used by fewer law enforcement agencies in the U.S. than 20 years ago. In the U.S. the key to a successful handgun round has been it's widespread adoption by law enforcement or the military. The .357 Sig was introduced about 1994 (about 4 years after the 40 S&W rolled in like a runaway train). It will likely always be a niche cartridge. This is one reason that ammo for it is more expensive, particularly practice ammo. I have maybe 4 pistols in 9mm. I have one Sig P229 that I can use both 40 S&W and .357 Sig with. I'm playing with both rounds. The Sig is hands down the best gun to use the Sig round from that I've experienced, same with the 40 S&W. Glocks were not built specifically for these rounds until the Gen 5 guns IIRC. tipoc __________________ 1. All guns are always loaded. 2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. 3. Keep your finger off the trigger till you are ready to shoot. 4. Identify your target and know what is beyond it. Last edited by tipoc; March 12, 2018 at 10:44 AM.

March 12, 2018, 01:46 PM	#43
Bottom Gun Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 1998 Location: Arizona Territory Posts: 1,092	The .357 Sig round has become my favorite handgun cartridge. I use it in my P226, P229 and P239 pistols. I carried a 1911 and a S&W 629 for nearly half a century but decided I wanted something flatter shooting with lower recoil. I did a bit of horse trading with one of the local Border Patrol guys and ended up with a P226 and a P239, both in .40 S&W. I liked the pistols but was unimpressed by the .40 S&W cartridge. So, I swapped the .40 S&W barrels for .357 Sig barrels in both pistols. Before I finished shooting the first magazine of .357 Sig, I knew I had found my new carry cartridge. I bought a P229, then another. . . . . Much of my time is spent out on the trail these days so I am likely to encounter large 4 legged predators in addition to the 2 legged border crossers. After a large black bear approached to within 25 yd of my position while I was picnicking, I decided I needed something that would give me better penetration than the Gold Dots that filled my magazine at the time. I was able to discourage this bear by blowing the horn on my ATV and was thankful I didn’t have to defend myself since I wasn’t sure those Gold Dots were the right bullets in that situation. I have since loaded up some of the Lehigh Defense Xtreme Defense and Xtreme Penetrator bullets. These are the monolithic copper bullets that use the new fluid transfer technology. I use them now for carry loads in both .357 Sig and 9MM. I feel well armed with 13 rd of this stuff inside my P229. The key to enjoying the .357 Sig round is reloading. If you don’t reload, you won’t enjoy this cartridge very much. Factory ammo is expensive and variety is limited as is the case with many cartridges. Reloading opens the door to a whole new world because it allows you to make ammo that nobody else produces like my 90 gr XTP or 90 gr Gold Dot varmint loads. You seldom see any .357 Sig factory ammo with bullets lighter than 125 gr and that’s too bad because the .357 Sig is fun to shoot with lighter bullets. One of my favorite plinking loads is a 115 gr Hornady HAP with AA#9 or Bullseye powder. Some guys will say otherwise but reloading this Sig cartridge is no more difficult than loading any other bottleneck cartridge. So, while it’s not the biggest or baddest cartridge out there, it remains a flat shooting, hard hitting cartridge with slightly more recoil and muzzle blast than a 9MM. I like it better than the .38 Supers I used to shoot. I’ll take a bottleneck case over a straight wall case for reliability any day. I have NOT been able to cause a jam in any of my .357 Sig pistols despite repeated attempts. I’ll end by saying that I’m sold on the .357 Sig. It’s a perfect fit for me. Your mileage may vary. __________________ NRA Life Member Mechanical engineers have their moments.

March 12, 2018, 01:58 PM	#44
Lohman446 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2016 Posts: 2,192	As an interesting aside one should look at the .40 Super - at one point proposed at the .40 SIG. Far too niche of a round to be useful to the OP but interesting none the less [/quote]I have NOT been able to cause a jam in any of my .357 Sig pistols despite repeated attempts. [/quote] Have you been able to create jams with more "common" cartridges in firearms that are equally maintained and of similar quality? I get the theoretical advantage of the bottleneck in feeding but is it really a problem we need to try to overcome? Last edited by Lohman446; March 12, 2018 at 03:17 PM.

March 13, 2018, 12:03 AM	#48
Cosmodragoon Senior Member Join Date: March 18, 2013 Location: Northeastern US Posts: 1,869	These options propel a similar projectile at different speeds. Recoil and destructive power both tend to increase with the increased velocity. The faster projectile will generally have a penetrative advantage but bullet construction does a lot to control penetration. As far as construction, higher velocity can mean more reliable expansion for hollow-points. Load and construction matter a lot in comparing calibers. One thing to consider about 9mm is that it is old and has come a long way. If you compare regular target ammo in 9mm versus .357 Sig, you'll notice a big difference. When you start comparing 9mm +p (etc.), that difference gets a little smaller. The issue is that the difference also starts to shrink in areas where it would have been an advantage for 9mm, such as in cost and recoil. (I also wonder how much regular stress some 9mm pistols are designed to handle.) In my limited experience, there seems to be less variance with .357 Sig and the guns all seem designed for it. So at the end of the day, I'm left with two conclusions. First, standard-pressure 9mm is great for plinking and superb in smaller polymer-framed carry guns. Second, .357 Sig is great in full-sized or duty guns and could even work as a woods gun in a lot of places. Whatever your choice, just make sure you have the right ammo for the job.

March 13, 2018, 07:23 AM	#49
Lohman446 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2016 Posts: 2,192	You know I was finally minimizing my caliber selection and now I want a Glock 32... I blame this thread

March 13, 2018, 08:12 AM	#50
saleen322 Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2010 Posts: 778	Here is a small comparison chart of some 9mm and 357 Sig rounds. The last one listed is the round that Speer developed for LE use. It is interesting that the LE round has a MV of less than 1000 fps and performs about ideally in all the tests; penetrates far enough without over penetration in any test medium.