Experience with 30-30 and magnum pistol powders?

[Chainsaw.]

Looking to start reloading 30-30 for my Dad's old Winchester lever gun. Some of my books have recipes for magnum pistol powders like 4227 and h110. I'm wondering if anyone has experience with either of these powders and if the results are satisfactory. I'd like to load 170 grain gas checked lead bullets at lower velocities. Being its a lever gun clean burning is important too as they can be a bear to clean.

[T. O'Heir]

Neither of those powders are specifically for magnum anything. IMR4227, for example, works really well in .30 Carbine. Much more accurate than H110. However, what they are is relatively fast burning powders.
Don't have my old Lyman book with me, but there are cast bullet loads in it. Don't recall seeing IMR4227 under any cast listing though.
15.0 grains to 19.0 grains of IMR4227 is given for a 170 grain bullet on Steve's Pages data. No idea if it's a cast or jacketed.
No H110 data at all.
In any case, if a manual gives data, that data will be safe to use. Liability issues scare all companies.

[Unclenick]

H110 is sold for magnum straight wall pistols, specifically, though I believe the WC296 bulk base powder was actually developed for the military for .30 Carbine, originally. 4227 is also recommended for a lot of straight wall magnum pistol chamberings.

That said, being suitable for magnum pistols, those powders are still faster than is typically used with your bullet weight in the .30-30. IMR3031 is the king of the hill for .30-30 with a 170-grain bullet. It will give you more velocity when run up to the same peak pressure.

[HiBC]

If you cannot find published data for a load,I suggest you do not experiment.
There is a sticky post for sources for official load data.

Off the top of my head,I suspect those powders would not be a good choice for 170 gr bullet 30-30 load. Particularly the H-110. While both powders do work for 30 Carbine with a 110 gr bullet,a 170 gr bullet is a whole different ball game. Its going to need a slower powder.


FWIW,the very best way I know of to blow up a centerfire rifle with bottleneck cartridge is to accidently use handgun powder.

[454PB]

I use Alliant Bluedot in my reduced cast bullet loads.

[Marco Califo]

Lots of older forgotten, or no longer popular loads can be found in the old paper pamphlets that powder makers gave away. Look at the middle of page 47 in this one:

http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Fre...cules_1992.pdf

You can also chop off each slash and get into directories of the other pamphlets, years, makers, etc.

[Pathfinder45]

I consider H-110 and the Winchester equivalent, W296, to be very specialized powders that have limited applications and can be finicky or even dangerous to work with outside of their niche. Good for what they're good for, and not much else. Don't even mess with it in your 30-30. I expect that IMR-4227 may have some useful purpose with cast-bullet reduced loads is the 30-30, and it is a more flexible powder than H-110. Unique is a commonly used powder for cast-bullet reduced rifle loads.

[44 AMP]

Don't have my old Lyman book with me, but there are cast bullet loads in it. Don't recall seeing IMR4227 under any cast listing though.

Lyman 45th Edition (1970)
there are NO .30-30 loads with IMR 4227. Or H110.

Cast bullet loads do include pistol powders Unique, Red Dot, Green Dot, Herco, and some others. MAX loads of Unique and Herco crack 1500fps with a 170gr cast slug. Everything else is in the 12-1300fps range with max loads.

IMR 4227 works well in small rifle cases, .30 carbine, .22 Hornet, .218 Bee, and in magnum pistol cases (which can be bigger than small rifle cases) but isn't well suited to larger rifle cases, and other powders seem better suited to reduced loads in .30-30.

H110 is rather sensitive to load density. POOR choice for .30-30. Too much empty case for H110 to be happy with. (also enough room for enough H110 to blow up your gun)

[Salmoneye]

More fuel for the fire here:

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

.30-30 page has a number of powders for reduced cast loads including H4227, but no H110...

[Jim Watson]

I once loaded some .30-30 cast bullets with IMR 4227. Nothing outstanding in my rifle but a friend won some CAS rifle caliber side matches with it.

[243winxb]

IMR-4227 From 15.0 grains to 19.0 grains http://stevespages.com/page8a.htm

IMR data from 2001 shows 19.0 gr maximum with a Rem 170 gr bullet. castpics.net

Stay away from maximum, when loading fast burning pistol powders.

The best powder IMR 4895 with jacketed or gas checked cast bullets. IMO.

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

Alliant 2400 is a near ideal powder for cast shooting. Can't say how H-110 or H-4227 would behave. I consider both to be better purposed for Magnum pistol use. Although at times such pistol powders are suggested. As I was told years ago. "Read the label on all Hodgdon powder containers prior to purchasing."
I highly doubt any powder manufacture would intentionally put their customer/s in harms way suggesting it is. When it isn't"

[ATCDoktor]

I use 14.5 grains of IMR 4227 and a Missouri Bullets plain based .309 diameter Hi Tek coated bullet in all my 30/30’s (late model Remlin with Microgroove rifling, and three Winchester Model 94’s from the 1960’s/early 1970’s) and accuracy is outstanding.

Velocity runs about 1450 fps (depending on barrel length) leading is minimal to non existent and it is not uncommon for me to fire 50-60 rounds per range session with no degradation of accuracy.

Barrels clean up with a few pulls of a 30 caliber bore snake.

[res45]

Looking to start reloading 30-30 for my Dad's old Winchester lever gun. Some of my books have recipes for magnum pistol powders like 4227 and h110. I'm wondering if anyone has experience with either of these powders and if the results are satisfactory. I'd like to load 170 grain gas checked lead bullets at lower velocities. Being its a lever gun clean burning is important too as they can be a bear to clean.

Well those powders are not necessarily just magnum pistol powders they just happen to be in the density/burn range that they work will in magnum pistol loads, but many of them work great for cast rifle loads.

I've never used H-110 / W296 in 30-30 cast loads, but I do see their is data for that powder in the old RCBS Cast Bullet manual with 170 gr. bullets. IMR-4227 has load data in the Lyman Cast Bullet manual for it with 170 to 173 gr. bullets, I just like using powders that give me the same velocity/accuracy using less powder.

Below is a list of various load data for Lyman old and new manual using 170 gr. cast lead in the 30-30. I generally cast my 30-30 bullets from Wheel Weights, size to .311" and leave the gas check off if I'm shooting 1300 fps. or under, after that I use a gas check. You can lube the bullets however you like using Alox TL, conventional lube or powder coat. My go to plinker load with 170 gr. cast bullets with the gas check left off is 7.0 grs. of Alliant Red Dot. I have HV loads that mimic factory 170 gr. loads but I use H335 for those.

10 shots at 50 yds. with the irons.


170 gr. Cast Loads

Red Dot 6.5 grs. 1159 fps. 8.5 grs. 1348 fps.

Unique 7.0 grs. 1240 fps. 10.6 grs. 1555 fps.

SR-4756 7.0 grs. 1102 fps. 10.5 grs. 1423 fps.

W231 6.0 grs. 1175 fps. 8.0 grs. 1275 fps.

TiteGroup 4.5 grs. 960 fps. 6.5 grs. 1383 fps.

2400 Lite 7.0 grs. 1005 fps. 11.0 grs. 1377 fps.

2400 Heavy 15.0 grs. 1624 fps. 18.5 grs. 1862 fps.

Bullseye 5.0 grs. 990 fps. 7.4 grs. 1263 fps.

RX7 20.0 grs. 1632 fps. 28.6 grs. 2165 fps.

IMR 4198 18.0 grs. 1606 fps. 24.0 grs. 2013 fps.

IMR 4227 16.5 grs. 1575 fps. 22.0 grs. 1959 fps.

IMR 3031 22.5 grs. 1599 fps. 28.5 grs. 2095 fps.

[Chainsaw.]

I was thinking h110 might be a bit too lively in 30-30.

Atcdok, what weight bullet are you getting those results?

Res, good stuff, thank you. Ill be running powder coated and gas checked cast bullets, wanting lower velocities so hopefully leading will be non issue.

[ATCDoktor]

Atcdok, what weight bullet are you getting those results?

Missouri Bullet 165 grain #1 White Tail bullet HI Tek Coated .309 diameter.

[Slamfire]

Since the almost universal adoption of piezo electric pressure transducers, powder companies and reloading manuals can see the pressure curve real time, and see things going on, real time, that they could not with copper crushers.

I don't know this, for this application, but I do know having asked Alliant, if they see that little changes in components make huge changes in the pressure curve, they won't recommend the load. That is one reason old load recommendations are absent in later manuals.

Such as:

Blue Dot Safety Notice 7/23/08

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=303766

I just wanted to add, there is a individual at a range I used to shoot at who has blown up 7 guns screwing around with Blue Dot and cast lead bullets. I think the problem with Blue Dot is that it takes so little to get there fast, It's positional in large cases and pressures can vary widley. Just my opinion

One I will comment on is the use of Blue Dot in rifle cartridges, particularly 223 Remington, and with other cartridges. This is a practice advocated by a poster, who goes by the name "Seafire". Seafire experimented with Blue Dot in a number of cartridges, got the velocities he wanted, low cost due to the low powder charges, low heat, and clean bores.

Benefits of the 223, Blue Dot & shooting Prairie Dogs

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...223_Blue_Dot_s

Others have followed his advice and blown up rifles. Not immediately, but eventually, someone fires enough Blue Dot loads and blows up their firearm. The reason is that little changes in any variable with Blue Dot causes a huge rise in pressure. Unfortunately, without a pressure gauge, you can't see this. This shooter, blew up his rifle using Blue Dot. He thinks he double charged the case, but I think, the most likely cause, was a spike in pressures, due to his use of Blue Dot. If we call it "burn rate instability" it sounds educated, but it really means, it blew up, had to be high pressures, and, we invented this term because it covers a multitude of sins.

Catastrophic Failure of Rifle Due To Double Charge of Blue Dot

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=341348

Blue Dot load in a AR15

What might cause this?

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...pics/2067095/1

Gunpowder does not burn nice and linearly like a candle. It is an exponential pressure rise, and we humans do not think in exponential terms, so basically, exponential is incomprehensible. Also, we don't understand the interaction of the pressure waves to the point we can predict problems with a high degree of accuracy. When you are dealing with gunpowder it is best to be conservative.

[res45]

Wanting lower velocities so hopefully leading will be non issue.

With a bullet of the right alloy to match the load pressure an diameter, which I go .311" in all my US 30 cal. rifles and they chamber just fine and fit the throat nicely, as well as a good lube leading should never be an issue unless there is a problem with the rifles bore that would cause it to strip lead from the bullet such as pits or rough tooling marks left over from a newly mfg. gun.

I have yet to have to remove any lead from a handgun or rifle when following the above points, an cleanup with just a wet patch and a few dry ones to remove any powder residue. Many pistol and shotgun powder will tend to burn much cleaner in rifle bores to anyways, at least that has been my experience.

[rodfac]

I use 14.5 grains of IMR 4227 and a Missouri Bullets plain based .309 diameter Hi Tek coated bullet in all my 30/30’s (late model Remlin with Microgroove rifling, and three Winchester Model 94’s from the 1960’s/early 1970’s) and accuracy is outstanding.

Velocity runs about 1450 fps (depending on barrel length) leading is minimal to non existent and it is not uncommon for me to fire 50-60 rounds per range session with no degradation of accuracy.

That's been my load for .30-30 use for 30+ years as well...with the exception that I like cast, sized and lubed bullets vs. the coated variety. I've used, as thousands before my have used: Lyman's 311291 gc sized 0.310" and lubed with 50-50 Alox/beeswax (the old NRA formula) for great target shooting. While I've not personally chrono'd it, reliable reports credit it with 1450 fps. It'll do an inch for the first 3-4 at 50 yds until the barrel heats up. HTH's Rod

[Mobuck]

"I consider H-110 and the Winchester equivalent, W296, to be very specialized powders that have limited applications and can be finicky or even dangerous to work with outside of their niche."

GOOD ADVICE

[jamaica]

Hmmmm........ 30-30 is the caliber I first reloaded for many years back. Got a can of 3031 powder and have always used that one in 30-30. You can't go wrong with this one.

[Chainsaw.]

Found a load from lyman for 4227. Loaded to the minimum, went to the range. Results were great. Good accuracy. Clean shooting. Low-ish recoil. Bore was clean as a whistle afterwards.

Will need to get a crimp die to iron out the mouth of the case from seating the fllate base gas checked bullets.