Cop bashing threads

DeputyVaughn · June 28, 2001, 11:28 PM

With regard to the closing of the "cop bashing" threads:
I just wanted to say for the record that I haven't found anything said to be personally offensive or really thatbad in general. I expect to find gun owners wary of law enforcement. Hell, I'm wary of law enforcement when it comes to my guns! My position on Second Amendment issues keeps me in constant trouble at work.

Anyway what I think is that we all have a "reasonable suspicion"(love those COP phrases) that sooner or later the average street cop is going to get the order to go out and "round em up". When I see things happen like they have in the last ten years, it wouldn't surprise me if it happened tomorrow.

Our legislatures have completely lost touch with reality when it comes to firearms issues and they could pass such a law at two am on the last night of a session and the local street cop and Deputy Sheriff's like myself could be told go get em or turn in your gear and I know plenty of guys who would simply "follow orders". However, I hope in this post to assure my friends here and gunowners everywhere that such an order would run into stiff opposition from guys like me. On that day they could have my gear.

Finally, there are always going to be bad cops. Oddly enough if you look for them you can find them in droves. The same is true for good cops. If you seek them you will find them, plenty of them. I like to think I'll be found in that group. I'm not worried when I find a person has a gun in their car unless they put some other actions with it that make it a threat to me. Danger to a police officer doesn't come from a guns presence, but from the intent and actions of the person in possession of it. A gun is not evil in and of itself. People can be, but even those guys are few and far between (and most of them are politicians).

I hope the administrators of this board will take these thoughts into consideration before closing a discussion. As long as everyone remains civil I think talking about these things is productive and good public relations. Please allow them to go on.

Scott A. Vaughn

WAGCEVP · June 29, 2001, 12:19 AM

DeputyVaughn
hey, Interested in joining a pro 2a Cop discussion list?

2ampd · A pro Second Amendment discussion group for law enforcement officers, past-present, and friendly others with similar interests Group Member [ Edit My Membership ]

Home
Messages
Post
Files
Polls
Members
Calendar

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

= Owner
= Moderator
= Online

Description Category: Police and Law Enforcement
This is a forum for pro-Second Amendment law enforcement officers, past or present, and others friendly to LE holding similar interest. It is intended to counter the myth that all LEOs are anti-gun, anti-self defense, and determined to violate individual rights. We intend this to be friendly and constructive. We get paid to deal with the unfortunate hostilities and disagreements of everyday life. This is a hobby and in retirement or off-duty, we don't have to put up with anti-cop rhetoric :-). Please join us in friendly conversation.

Group Email Addresses

Post message: [email protected]
Subscribe: [email protected]
Unsubscribe: [email protected]
List owner: [email protected]

Membership
You are a member of this group

[ Edit My Membership ] [ Leave Group ]

Group Info
Members: 143
Founded: Aug 26, 2000
Language: English

ArmySon · June 29, 2001, 12:25 AM

From past LEO threads, they led to nothing except cop bashing. We lost alot of good LEO's in the process. Since those LEO threads aren't directly related to RKBA, there's no reason to tempt fate and possibly lose membership (from banning or resignation).

TFL is here to promote responsible gun ownership and Second Amendment rights through various discussions. Sometimes we are lenient with borderline non-RKBA topics. However, certain topics just have a very bad history to them.

Sorry if you felt closing the thread was premature but honestly, it was in the best interest of all members, especially LEO's.

BigG · June 29, 2001, 01:21 AM

You, sir, are an honest and mature man. Welcome aboard!

Son: As far as the cops who dropped out because we criticized cops in general; we don't need any pu$$ies here. If the shoe fits, wear it. If not, forget about it.

Again, Deputy Vaughan, welcome!

Steve in PA · June 29, 2001, 02:11 AM

[sarcasm mode on]

Yeah, we only want the big macho type here, if a certain group of people don't like it when lumped in with the rest, pi$$ on 'em!!!! How dare they take offense at what we say!!!!!

[sarcasm mode off]

Remember your words the next time you feel pissed becasue someone labeled all gun owners as evil and want to do something about it. If the shoe doesn't fit...why should it bother you???

June 29, 2001, 02:50 AM

If cop bashing is a sore spot with some, imagine how a lot of us feel with the repeated threads and posts that post how "stupid" all security guards are because one or two you may have seen are morons. Because I work in security I must be a mall ninja. Better yet, I am a rent-a-cop. hahahaha I made a funny. If you are going to bash one profession, you might as well bash them all. If you are going to defend one profession, defend them all.

I guess you can take this as a reminder that cops aren't the only ones that take their share of crud on these boards. Keep in mind, we are all supposed to be on the same side in the fight for RKBA. I'll be the first to admit, I have made a few posts that may have sounded like I was a cop hater. I have also gone into email or private messages to apologize when I see that it has happened. We all have bad days, but we should also all be adults. It takes more of a man to admit you were wrong and apologize. It also feels pretty good once you do it.

bronco61 · June 29, 2001, 06:54 AM

I totally agree with Preservefreedom. As a school teacher, I constantly see people talking negatively about my profession and the poor job educators are doing in this country on this forum! I don't see threads closed for "Teacher bashing".

jadams951 · June 29, 2001, 06:58 AM

Those threads used to not bother me either. After a while they start to get to you. Why don't I start threads that are bashing other professions? Well, that's not me and I've got better things to do with my time. I come here to relax and enjoy not listen to more crap about LEO's on here. I get enough crap at work...last thing I need is to see it again here.

F4GIB · June 29, 2001, 07:16 PM

Asking good policy questions about law enforcement work/procedures is never easy. Getting thoughtful answers is even harder. See, for example, http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/Foru...L/003406.html.

Many officers who have never thought deeply about their activities or the social policies that they implicate, immediately raise the shout of "cop bashing" as a totem to ward off deep thinking and intellectually sound discussion.

Moderators who too easily give in to that ploy, deny all members of the board the intellectual stimulation that should (and most often does) result from robust discussion.

I'll post more here and we'll see what happens.

F4GIB · June 29, 2001, 08:52 PM

So we all know, how precisely does the moderator define "cop bashing?"

By the content (objectively considered), the "tone" of the message or , like sexual harassment, merely by the reaction of the most sensitive reader? Or by some other unspecified criteria?

**Rich Lucibella** · June 29, 2001, 09:03 PM

F4-
Your question is sophomoric in that it demands that we answer what is "defined" as gentlemanly behavior. This is a parent's job...not ours. I suggest you rephrase the question if you honestly expect an answer.

Neither is it necessary for us to attempt to teach the lesson you request. We close threads based on the Policies of this Board. The last one (#4) may be a bit vague for you, but it should have prepared you for the occasional lock on a thread.

Closing any topic is a judgement issue. As with all issues of judgement, we don't expect everyone to agree. But we do our best...that's why we get the big bucks.

We don't have any problem with discussion of ill advised laws or botched police actions. In fact we talk about 'em all the time. We try to draw the line at topics that have become polarized and generalized statements of an antagonistic nature.

If TFL LEO's began to reference all firearms owners based on the examples provided by daily news reports of citizen crime and violence, we might better get the point. We expect them to recognize the difference between the law abiding citizen and the minority of criminals. Should they ask any less of you and I?

My suggestion: you can pretty much get any point across on TFL, as long as you take a bit of time to prepare it properly....in other words, Think Twice, Post Once.
Rich

Quartus · June 29, 2001, 09:30 PM

All of you would do well to re-consider the use of the perjoritive, "bashing". Consider who first began using it in this society, and the how and why of that. It is designed to shut down reasonable discussion. The word CANNOT be used intelligently.

From another thread:

"BASHING"

It is a word that is used by the intellectually and morally bankrupt to quell legitimate disagreement and criticism.

It is a petty whining, "Don't be mean to me!" clothed in self righteousness.

It is the antithesis of intelligent discussion, and a threat to freedom of thought and speech, and therefore, truth.

It is an ad hominem disguised as "tolerance", and has no place in a free society.

Hal · July 1, 2001, 06:31 AM

There've been a couple of worthwhile "bashers" that fled also. I don't miss their attitude, but their technical expertice was invaluable.

Dennis · July 3, 2001, 08:32 AM

Personally, I'd like to ride with Deputy Vaughn.
And, while I'm talking about personal, I'll give my personal opinion.
(Yeah, I know what opinions are like ... and I know most of them stink.)

TFL is our livingroom. We reserve both the right and the power to define "gentlemanly conduct" totally separate from what we note on television or in in the movies. This in no way restricts free speech (which can be expressed in courteous terms) nor abridges the First Amendment (you can take it to e-mail or another forum).

TFL exists to promote responsible firearms ownership. The Staff has the *responsibility* to make an attempt at uniting (rather than dividing) those who are willing to support our stated reason for being.

Frankly, those who wish to insult careers (using gross generalities) and individuals, do as much to hurt our RKBA movement as Sarah Brady and her ilk. Take it elsewhere to dispute:
- alternative lifestyles,
- religious beliefs (including atheism),
- abortion (always a winner at dividing our efforts),
or careers such as:
- law enforcement (what we used to call "peace officers,"
- security officers (such as "mall ninjas"),
- teachers and instructors, and
- anyone successfully completing the eighth grade or above.

(Hmmm. I made every career but LEO!

)

For arguing careers, lifestyles and ancestry, there's e-mail and (if you simply MUST beat your breast for public consumption) there are boards such as Hardtalk (which is a great board - just not my style).

For friendly discussions NOT related to responsible firearms ownership, take it to other boards.

Y'all need to thank Rich for TFL and thank him again for keeping me in check - or I'd be closing threads a lot more often for being unrelated to our mission or simply divisive in their presentation.

The ego masturbators can do so in private or elsewhere - not on TFL.

Remember why we're here.

June 28, 2001, 11:28 PM	#1
DeputyVaughn Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 300	Cop bashing threads With regard to the closing of the "cop bashing" threads: I just wanted to say for the record that I haven't found anything said to be personally offensive or really thatbad in general. I expect to find gun owners wary of law enforcement. Hell, I'm wary of law enforcement when it comes to my guns! My position on Second Amendment issues keeps me in constant trouble at work. Anyway what I think is that we all have a "reasonable suspicion"(love those COP phrases) that sooner or later the average street cop is going to get the order to go out and "round em up". When I see things happen like they have in the last ten years, it wouldn't surprise me if it happened tomorrow. Our legislatures have completely lost touch with reality when it comes to firearms issues and they could pass such a law at two am on the last night of a session and the local street cop and Deputy Sheriff's like myself could be told go get em or turn in your gear and I know plenty of guys who would simply "follow orders". However, I hope in this post to assure my friends here and gunowners everywhere that such an order would run into stiff opposition from guys like me. On that day they could have my gear. Finally, there are always going to be bad cops. Oddly enough if you look for them you can find them in droves. The same is true for good cops. If you seek them you will find them, plenty of them. I like to think I'll be found in that group. I'm not worried when I find a person has a gun in their car unless they put some other actions with it that make it a threat to me. Danger to a police officer doesn't come from a guns presence, but from the intent and actions of the person in possession of it. A gun is not evil in and of itself. People can be, but even those guys are few and far between (and most of them are politicians). I hope the administrators of this board will take these thoughts into consideration before closing a discussion. As long as everyone remains civil I think talking about these things is productive and good public relations. Please allow them to go on. Scott A. Vaughn __________________ Always Remember: A firearm is only an instrument. It contains no evil, no conscience, and no ability. It is strictly the intent, competence, and character of its user that decide the outcome of any and all actions taken with it. (I don't know who to credit but I like the quote.)

June 29, 2001, 12:19 AM	#2
WAGCEVP Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2000 Location: Georgia Posts: 1,989	Pro 2A Cop Discussion List DeputyVaughn hey, Interested in joining a pro 2a Cop discussion list? 2ampd · A pro Second Amendment discussion group for law enforcement officers, past-present, and friendly others with similar interests Group Member [ Edit My Membership ] Home Messages Post Files Polls Members Calendar -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- = Owner = Moderator = Online Description Category: Police and Law Enforcement This is a forum for pro-Second Amendment law enforcement officers, past or present, and others friendly to LE holding similar interest. It is intended to counter the myth that all LEOs are anti-gun, anti-self defense, and determined to violate individual rights. We intend this to be friendly and constructive. We get paid to deal with the unfortunate hostilities and disagreements of everyday life. This is a hobby and in retirement or off-duty, we don't have to put up with anti-cop rhetoric :-). Please join us in friendly conversation. Group Email Addresses Post message: [email protected] Subscribe: [email protected] Unsubscribe: [email protected] List owner: [email protected] Membership You are a member of this group [ Edit My Membership ] [ Leave Group ] Group Info Members: 143 Founded: Aug 26, 2000 Language: English

June 29, 2001, 02:11 AM	#5
Steve in PA Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 1999 Location: Northeastern PA Posts: 756	[sarcasm mode on] Yeah, we only want the big macho type here, if a certain group of people don't like it when lumped in with the rest, pi$$ on 'em!!!! How dare they take offense at what we say!!!!! [sarcasm mode off] Remember your words the next time you feel pissed becasue someone labeled all gun owners as evil and want to do something about it. If the shoe doesn't fit...why should it bother you??? __________________ Steve

June 29, 2001, 06:58 AM	#8
jadams951 Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2000 Location: Houston, Texas USA Posts: 295	Those threads used to not bother me either. After a while they start to get to you. Why don't I start threads that are bashing other professions? Well, that's not me and I've got better things to do with my time. I come here to relax and enjoy not listen to more crap about LEO's on here. I get enough crap at work...last thing I need is to see it again here. __________________ Member: NRA, GOA, & TSRA

June 29, 2001, 09:03 PM	#11
Rich Lucibella Staff Join Date: October 6, 1998 Location: South Florida Posts: 10,229	F4- Your question is sophomoric in that it demands that we answer what is "defined" as gentlemanly behavior. This is a parent's job...not ours. I suggest you rephrase the question if you honestly expect an answer. Neither is it necessary for us to attempt to teach the lesson you request. We close threads based on the Policies of this Board. The last one (#4) may be a bit vague for you, but it should have prepared you for the occasional lock on a thread. Closing any topic is a judgement issue. As with all issues of judgement, we don't expect everyone to agree. But we do our best...that's why we get the big bucks. We don't have any problem with discussion of ill advised laws or botched police actions. In fact we talk about 'em all the time. We try to draw the line at topics that have become polarized and generalized statements of an antagonistic nature. If TFL LEO's began to reference all firearms owners based on the examples provided by daily news reports of citizen crime and violence, we might better get the point. We expect them to recognize the difference between the law abiding citizen and the minority of criminals. Should they ask any less of you and I? My suggestion: you can pretty much get any point across on TFL, as long as you take a bit of time to prepare it properly....in other words, Think Twice, Post Once. Rich __________________ S.W.A.T. Magazine Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook

June 29, 2001, 12:25 AM	#3
ArmySon Staff Alumnus Join Date: April 14, 2000 Posts: 2,926	From past LEO threads, they led to nothing except cop bashing. We lost alot of good LEO's in the process. Since those LEO threads aren't directly related to RKBA, there's no reason to tempt fate and possibly lose membership (from banning or resignation). TFL is here to promote responsible gun ownership and Second Amendment rights through various discussions. Sometimes we are lenient with borderline non-RKBA topics. However, certain topics just have a very bad history to them. Sorry if you felt closing the thread was premature but honestly, it was in the best interest of all members, especially LEO's.

June 29, 2001, 01:21 AM	#4
BigG Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 4,334	You, sir, are an honest and mature man. Welcome aboard! Son: As far as the cops who dropped out because we criticized cops in general; we don't need any pu$$ies here. If the shoe fits, wear it. If not, forget about it. Again, Deputy Vaughan, welcome! __________________ o "The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." Assyrian tablet, c. 2800 BC o "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain o "They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?" Paul Harvey o TODAY WE CARVE OUT OUR OWN OMENS! Leonidas, Thermopylae, 480 BC

June 29, 2001, 02:50 AM	#6
PreserveFreedom Guest Posts: n/a	If cop bashing is a sore spot with some, imagine how a lot of us feel with the repeated threads and posts that post how "stupid" all security guards are because one or two you may have seen are morons. Because I work in security I must be a mall ninja. Better yet, I am a rent-a-cop. hahahaha I made a funny. If you are going to bash one profession, you might as well bash them all. If you are going to defend one profession, defend them all. I guess you can take this as a reminder that cops aren't the only ones that take their share of crud on these boards. Keep in mind, we are all supposed to be on the same side in the fight for RKBA. I'll be the first to admit, I have made a few posts that may have sounded like I was a cop hater. I have also gone into email or private messages to apologize when I see that it has happened. We all have bad days, but we should also all be adults. It takes more of a man to admit you were wrong and apologize. It also feels pretty good once you do it.

June 29, 2001, 06:54 AM	#7
bronco61 Senior Member Join Date: April 9, 1999 Location: Alaska Posts: 518	I totally agree with Preservefreedom. As a school teacher, I constantly see people talking negatively about my profession and the poor job educators are doing in this country on this forum! I don't see threads closed for "Teacher bashing".

June 29, 2001, 07:16 PM	#9
F4GIB Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 2001 Location: Midwest Posts: 217	Asking good policy questions about law enforcement work/procedures is never easy. Getting thoughtful answers is even harder. See, for example, http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/Foru...L/003406.html. Many officers who have never thought deeply about their activities or the social policies that they implicate, immediately raise the shout of "cop bashing" as a totem to ward off deep thinking and intellectually sound discussion. Moderators who too easily give in to that ploy, deny all members of the board the intellectual stimulation that should (and most often does) result from robust discussion. I'll post more here and we'll see what happens.

June 29, 2001, 08:52 PM	#10
F4GIB Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 2001 Location: Midwest Posts: 217	So we all know, how precisely does the moderator define "cop bashing?" By the content (objectively considered), the "tone" of the message or , like sexual harassment, merely by the reaction of the most sensitive reader? Or by some other unspecified criteria?

June 29, 2001, 09:30 PM	#12
Quartus Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2001 Location: Virginia Posts: 3,823	All of you would do well to re-consider the use of the perjoritive, "bashing". Consider who first began using it in this society, and the how and why of that. It is designed to shut down reasonable discussion. The word CANNOT be used intelligently. From another thread: "BASHING" It is a word that is used by the intellectually and morally bankrupt to quell legitimate disagreement and criticism. It is a petty whining, "Don't be mean to me!" clothed in self righteousness. It is the antithesis of intelligent discussion, and a threat to freedom of thought and speech, and therefore, truth. It is an ad hominem disguised as "tolerance", and has no place in a free society. __________________ . Better to know what you don't know than to think you know what you don't know.

July 1, 2001, 06:31 AM	#13
Hal Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Ohio USA Posts: 8,563	There've been a couple of worthwhile "bashers" that fled also. I don't miss their attitude, but their technical expertice was invaluable. Last edited by Hal; July 1, 2001 at 07:04 AM.

July 3, 2001, 08:32 AM	#14
Dennis Staff Emeritus Join Date: November 23, 1998 Location: a small forest in Texas Posts: 7,079	Personally, I'd like to ride with Deputy Vaughn. And, while I'm talking about personal, I'll give my personal opinion. (Yeah, I know what opinions are like ... and I know most of them stink.) TFL is our livingroom. We reserve both the right and the power to define "gentlemanly conduct" totally separate from what we note on television or in in the movies. This in no way restricts free speech (which can be expressed in courteous terms) nor abridges the First Amendment (you can take it to e-mail or another forum). TFL exists to promote responsible firearms ownership. The Staff has the responsibility to make an attempt at uniting (rather than dividing) those who are willing to support our stated reason for being. Frankly, those who wish to insult careers (using gross generalities) and individuals, do as much to hurt our RKBA movement as Sarah Brady and her ilk. Take it elsewhere to dispute: - alternative lifestyles, - religious beliefs (including atheism), - abortion (always a winner at dividing our efforts), or careers such as: - law enforcement (what we used to call "peace officers," - security officers (such as "mall ninjas"), - teachers and instructors, and - anyone successfully completing the eighth grade or above. (Hmmm. I made every career but LEO! ) For arguing careers, lifestyles and ancestry, there's e-mail and (if you simply MUST beat your breast for public consumption) there are boards such as Hardtalk (which is a great board - just not my style). For friendly discussions NOT related to responsible firearms ownership, take it to other boards. Y'all need to thank Rich for TFL and thank him again for keeping me in check - or I'd be closing threads a lot more often for being unrelated to our mission or simply divisive in their presentation. The ego masturbators can do so in private or elsewhere - not on TFL. Remember why we're here.