Less than Lethal?

[lockedcj7]

This idea has come up in other threads (I searched) but I didn't come up with one specific to the topic.

How many non-leos carry less-than-lethal options such as pepper spray, LifeAct, taser, stun-gun, baton, etc?

Here are my thoughts:
I have seen/read/heard about several instances where less-than-lethal would have been appropriate but lethal force was the only option. For instance, the hiker in AZ ended up in jail due to the questionable use of deadly force. (Let's leave the debate over whether his actions were justified in the other thread. His actions certainly were questioned by the powers-that-be or he wouldn't be in jail.) If he had employed a non-lethal option first, that alone might have stopped the attack. If he was still forced to shoot, he could say that he tried to end the hostilities without shooting the BG but was ultimately forced to.

The downside to this is that you might reach for the non-lethal option when you should have gone the other way. I have missed oportunities hunting because I reached for the binocs when I should have picked up the rifle. Make that mistake in a deadly encounter and you don't get to go home.

I also have instances where I simply cannot carry concealed but less-than-lethal would be okay (in my jurisdiction). I'm not willing to risk imprisonment, loss of my permit, loss of my job and a hefty fine so that I can CC for an event that will probably (and hopefully) never happen.

BTW - I don't think hand-to-hand or martial-arts training is the answer. If you are CC, getting into a scuffle is an extraordinarily bad idea. In addition, my wife and son would be vulnerable if they were with me and I was incapacitated. I am also fully aware of how fragile the human body is. One lucky punch and it's lights-out.

[ConcealCarryNY]

I dont carry LTL items but I do have my HD 870 loaded with rubber buckshot. I figure I am going to have my sidearm with me either way so it gives me a non lethal option.

[AZGunLover]

I always carry pepper spray, and a surefire flashlight even if i don't have my gun.

[TeamWolfy]

I am fairly new to CC as is my wife (we have been CC for little over 2 and a half years). I do understand the worry about using more force then what others may feel is justified. But do you think you will be fast enough to use another form of deterrence before you decide that it's either you or them. We both carry pepper spray, lights, knife and side arm. My wife says all the time she would rather be shot then beaten. And if you do use your less then lethal device will that person come back and sue you for damages. God willing we will never be in a position like this. Joe

[Blackwater OPS]

A good shoot is a good shoot and bad shoot is a bad shoot. ANY force esp. OC and Taser "can" turn into deadly force if the person dies. It happens(that's why the call is LESS lethal). OC/Taser are both more deterents than something that will physically stop an attack, a determined person can fight through them and draw/fire a weapon. I would be worried that I would have a less lethal option in my hand when I should have a firearm, or that having less lethal option would make me decide to use force that ends up being deadly when I could have avoided it(in a situation where I would not use my weapon/deadly force). Best to remember as a non-leo you are only there to protect yourself and get out of there if possible.

Also, dead men can't kill you, or testify/lie in court. Something to keep in mind if you want to stay alive and not broke or in jail.

[scsov509]

I'll just add to this thread that if you do decide to arm yourself with a LTL weapon, then make sure you know the laws where you live. Impact weapons for example (expanding baton, sap, etc) are illegal in many states when concealed, and some states like mine make it illegal to carry such a weapon at all. Many other LTL weapons are also illegal to carry or conceal, so make sure you check your local laws before you arm yourself. Don't assume that just because your state is gun friendly that you can also carry other weapons as well. Ignorance of the law does not afford one protection from arrest and prosecution.

[lockedcj7]

I've checked with my friendly neighborhood LEO and he said there were no laws regarding pepper-spray, stun guns, etc. I also figure that carrying a LTL option would give me something for those time when I would be illegal with a CC.

I've always said that having more options is always a good thing.

[teejhot.40cal]

I carry my surefire everywhere. I figure if I have to mace someone, I better be justified in shooting them. If I am not sure and flash the light in the potential BG's eyes and he isn't a BG no harm no foul. It is a lot easier to say sorry I flash my light in ur eyes rather then sorry I maced/shot you.

[scsov509]

Good to hear that you've asked the right questions. I personally recommend that people stay away from impact weapons of any kind, because they can become quite deadly without proper training. In law enforcement they are useful in restraining subjects, and especially useful when handcuffing an agressive individual. I'm just not sure I see a real value in using these as LTL for personal defense considering that 1) you shouldn't be trying to restrain people, and 2) that they can become letal when used to strike.

I know some may disagree with this, but I personally am not comfortable using and impact weapon for self-defense. I consider an impact weapon to be deadly, and I know that the laws here consider use of an impact weapon as life threatening. OC, stun guns, etc are all better LTL options IMHO.

[ATW525]

My less lethal option is to walk (or run) away and/or call the police. If I find myself in a situation where somebody is intent on causing me physical harm and won't allow me the above options, my response will be to shoot them to the ground. I'm not a confrontational person... I don't like to fight, but you can be damn sure that if somebody forces my hand, I will fight to win.

[fourtwentytexas]

I carry OC spray. In my mind the situations are pretty clear. Avoid confrontations if at all possible. Armed robbery= compliance. Unarmed assault= 5.3M SHU to the face. Armed assault, he gets the .45.
In Texas "clubs" are illeagal (but they can't ban a good 3 or 4 cell Maglite), as well as any knife that uses a spring, centrifugal force or gravity to open. OC spray can be carried most anywhere.
Be prepared Scouts.

[nbk2000]

Also, dead men can't kill you, or testify/lie in court. Something to keep in mind if you want to stay alive and not broke or in jail.

Wouldn't that statement be used by a DA as proof of premeditated murder?

After all, it sounds like 'I'll shoot 'em until I know he's dead, 'cause then I'll be the only left to tell the tale'.

Just something to keep in mind.

[Psalm27]

Personally, I would reconsider the martial arts option. Granted, it would not be effective 100% of the time, but...

• Many assailants are startled by an aggressive response
• Most martial arts teach you how to defend yourself against close quarters knife and gun attacks, as much as possible anyway
• The rule of thumb in martial arts vs. handguns is that the person has to be at least 21' away for you to have time to draw your weapon and inflict enough damage to stop them from causing you harm. This leaves those assailants who are less than 21' away. Again, that's from the martial arts camp... That would certainly apply to less than lethal defenses as well...what are you going to do if you don't have time to draw your pepper spray?
• Martial arts have the additional benefits of giving you better handling skills with your handgun, pepper spray, knife or just getting the heck out of the way of a punch
• You never have to draw them, worry about whether you have them with you, fumble with the safety, make sure the batteries are recharged, etc.
• They enhance your sense of awareness of what could be done to you by someone else

Anyway, just my $0.02.

As for me, I just have a yellow belt in Goshin Jujitsu, have taken about a year of Brazillian Jujitsu and 6 months of Muay Thai (Thai Kickboxing). I think they are the best investments I have ever made in my own personal self-defense. It is like I learned the 20% that carries the 80% benefit, maybe not quite that much benefit, but something like that.

In an encounter, I now also have the option of attempting to inflict pain, more pain, lots of pain, or to seriously injure, restrain, or kill them, as the situation requires. Lots more options. Lots more skills. With as little training as I've had (see above), I would guess that I would be 10 times more effective than before in any kind of fight. My friends would definitely agree, btw. Added to that is the confidence that it gives me, which can be a deterrent in itself.

Peace,
Mark

[BillCA]

I like to have my SureFire with me as a deterrent weapon. If someone is getting inside my personal perimeter, flashing it in his eyes and moving away is one way to try getting out of bad scene.

As to "drawing the wrong weapon"... reserve your LTL force items for your weak-side use. This allows you to keep your strong hand ready to escalate if necessary.

[Para Bellum]

my less than lethal option is a kick to the groin (or something else from my 20+yrs of martial arts yet).
If the situation is hot enough for a less than lethal weapon, it is hot enough for a real weapon. If not, just walk or run away.
I know, many guys here disagree, bit I have also seen warning shots (TO THE GROUND - NEVER INTO THE AIR!!!) work perfectly well and sobering.

I wouldn't bother with non-lethal devices. I don't know one that would be as reliable as a kick to the groin...

[Para Bellum]

Hey I just found something that I would consider an alternative to gun or a first step before the gun, there's a new nice taser out:

[K.J.]

I don't carry LTL off duty. S&W Model 60, usually two speed loaders, and a cell phone. 15 rounds and a 911 call. That's it.

[nbk2000]

Unit will not function...$9.95 activation fee

Oh, isn't that nice.

That sounds a lot like the product registration BS with software, and all the attedant hassles and risks.

If they can require an activation code be entered prior to the device working, what's to keep it from deactivating at some future time, to compel future 'activations' at a nominal fee?

We're sorry your TASER has deactivated just as the rapist is about to rape you, but you forgot to reactivate your registration.

This is the problem with anything electronic nowadays...unexpected and unpredictable behaviors pre-programmed in by the manufacturer.