6.5x284 load help

[Jezzro2004]

So this is the second time I've played with working a load up for my Savage predator hunter 6.5x284. This time around I used the following ingredients:
Lapua brass fire formed, uniformed primer pockets, and flash hole.
123 grain Hornady Amax
CCI BR2 primers
IMR4831 powder
Bullets seated .055 off lands due to long throat and shortness of the amaxs
Shot all groups in 91 degree weather letting rifle cool about 10 minutes between each five shot string. Now you experienced people here is some crazy questions, I recently purchased and been loading with the Wilson dies and press.. Most of my velocities and close in one or two groups I've got a really low or high number in some groups which is leading me to believe it could be inconsistent neck tension due to the neck being sized on the outside of brass that has not been turned. Idk... I've also noticed that every round that has been fired in the rifle since I purchased it new, after shooting the spent cartridges neck is so tight that a bullet will not slip down in it. However I have the standard size bushing with my Wilson neck die and it does size the neck back some but it's very minimal. All the groups were shot from a solid bench with front a rear bags. What's everyone's opinion of what's going on based on what you see and hear? What is everyone's opinion on what you would do or try. All powder charged were double checked on rcbs 502 beam scale and on my Hornady auto dispenser/ scale. The rifle has less than 200 rounds through it and was broke in using the shoot one clean, shoot five clean type method. I clean about every 25 rounds now. Rifle has a 20 Moa base, bushnell elite 6-24x50mm scope, Burris rings
Groups are at 100 yards
49.5 gr
2835 (fouler)
2842
2840
2819
2771 (low for some reason)

50.0 gr
2875
2874
2888
2873
2892

50.5 gr
2918
2909
2940
2925
2922

51.0 gr
2940
2945
2953
2914
2995 (high)

51.5 gr
2969
2972
2985
2974
2965


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[Unclenick]

Since your loads exceed Hodgdon's published maximums and I didn't spot others that high on a cursory search, so I inserted the required warning in your post.

Assuming you have a 8" twist, that bullet should be well stabilized, but the 140 grain A-max is going to come closer to the GS 1.4-1.7 stability factor range usually considered optimal.

Take a look at a tuning method like Dan Newberry's and see how it works for you. I would also try the 142 grain Sierra MatchKing if you aren't seeing what you want with the A-max's.

The case being too tight for a bullet is normal if your neck dimensions are close. A good sign, actually. Only a loose neck chamber usually gets fat enough to let a bullet back in. The mouth curls in a little because the pressure equalizes before it fully expands. You can make out the case mouth curl on these two cases.

[Jezzro2004]

I appreciate the input. Yeah the rifle is a 8" twist. However I got my load data from nosler considering I could get closer info on the 123 grain vs the hodgdon 120 gr load data here is the screen shot of what I went by. I also noticed after trimming my necks to 2.16 that some them had grown as much as .004 due to firing and resizing so that could cause some inconsistencies I'd assume. I also noticed I can insert a bullet into the spent case neck but it's draggy and snug. Also I measured the neck O.D. before and after sizing, before measured .296 and after was .294 Here's the data I got

{Edit: see board policy on posting copyrighted material.}

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[243winxb]

Your maximum load of 51.5 should be ok if there are no pressure signs, like hard bolt lift, loose primer pockets, or brass flow into the ejector hole. To improve accuracy i would try a Redding full length sizing type S bushing die and size only 1/2 of the neck. Use about .002" neck tension. On seating the bullet, the neck should expand .002" Control the shoulder set back (head to datum measurement) on sizing, so you feel a slight crush fit when closing the bolt. Test with and without the expander. When using the expander, lube inside of necks and look for a very light drag when the expander pulls thru the neck on each case. I sort brass by weight, using groups sorted by 3/10 gr. [IMG][/IMG] For me, sizing only 1/2 of the neck makes a difference in accuracy in my Rem 40X. The unsized part expands to the factory chamber after a few firings. [IMG][/IMG] Bullets jump well to the rifling, so dont have a OAL that is too long. I start with the bullet base (full diameter) at the neck shoulder junction, if it fits the magazine and chamber. If you outside neck turn later, no expander is needed. Brass does not get inside reamed. Just changing bullets can make the biggest difference in accuracy. Berger Bullets have shot well for me in 243 win. Hope this helps. Good luck.

[old roper]

I think Nosler and Berger are the only one that have loading data for the 6.5x284 Norma. They have some 130gr VLD,140gr VLD for the 1/18 twist barrel.

I did shot 6.5x284 Norma 1/8 twist barrel @ 28", .290 neck. I'm not going to give my load but I was close to 3000fps and used H-4831sc.

you might want to try http://forum.accurateshooter.com/ they have some shooting 6.5x284 Norma so you can get some current loads and not worry about giving warning.

[Unclenick]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.


Jezzro2004,

Since the loads are published, I pulled the warning out of your original as unnecessary. But I put it in this post for reasons that will become apparent. Unfortunately, the board's policy on posting copyrighted material prevents leaving that image up. You may quote the 4831 loads if you want to.

If I go strictly by group size, it looks like your last load, at the top of the Nosler data in your target photo appears to be an improvement because the vertical stringing seems to have come out of it. The photo before it seems to have eliminated horizontal spread, but still has a vertical string. So the maximum load may be a good compromise. You could try going ±0.3 grains. 0.5 grains can be a big enough jump in some loads to skip past a sweet spot, though I don't think that's likely with 4831. This will take it a little over the published maximum, so don't do it if you are not confident you can read pressure signs. However, I will point out that the way the SAAMI standard is written it allows for some extra pressure as an ammunition lot ages. They also allow for more pressure variation than the Extreme Spreads you are getting indicate your pressure is varying. So if you are using the ammunition fairly soon after loading it, and not years later and you are still controlling the charge size carefully, you should be fine.

I note the Hodgdon data says the case is Winchester (ref), which I presume means a Winchester brand .284 Winchester case necked down. It may not have the same capacity your Lapua cases do. The Nosler data is developed using Norma cases. I know Norma had early lots out with less capacity than later lots, and I don't know which capacity Nosler's data was developed with. Difference in case water capacity can affect pressure some. The worst case is 300 Win Mag, for which cases vary a lot. I just don't know the variation in 6.5-284 currently. The bottom line is you may have more load variation room than the data shows due to your individual chamber and your particular cases.

One measure you might want to make is of bullet runout on your cartridges. The Wilson seater design looks like it should do a good job, but in two tests I've seen it did not keep bullets as straight as some that allow the seater ram to float a little. The no-longer-open Rifleman's Journal had fired groups showing the difference it makes. In their test the Redding Competition Seater Die did best, with the standard RCBS die coming in second. It doesn't have a floating ram on the end of the stem, but its stem (thin, threaded rod) is flexible enough that it tends to play that role to an extent). You can often find used versions of the latter at gun shows or on eBay if you want to give it a try. But first, if you don't have it, I would obtain a way to measure runout for sorting. There are several gauges out there. The Sinclair gauge is popular. I like the NECO gauge with extra V-plate, but it's more expensive. The RCBS Casemaster can measure this, as shown being used in this video. There are less expensive gauges from Forster and Hornady, but they read overall cartridge runout between fixed ends, and won't separate case runout from bullet runout easily, which you can do with these other gauges.

[Jezzro2004]

So I had a quick change of heart, after seeing that original load I was playing with I decided to go back and try the H4831SC and Sierra 140 gr HPBT, and to top it off I ordered the Redding neck die I originally used. I got to say I was more impressed and believe I may be back on track of getting somewhere. Only thing I regretted was I shot 1 fouler, and should have shot 2. My first 2 velocity readings were low due to the clean barrel but after about 2 it started to level out some. I like the length and bc of the 140 grains. One thing I noticed was the case necks after sizing with the Redding were gripping the bullet about .003 which was quite a bit tighter than the Wilson die. But as you can see in the picture my 1st was the low velocity reading and it went high from the rest of the group so the plan is now to shoot from a dirty barrel and see what I get with the same load which was 50.0gr of H4831SC maybe go a little above below and see what happens. I will post my results as I continue my testing. There's not a lot of info on the ol interwebs about this particular rifle and caliber to go by. I do appreciate everyone's help and time. Follow along and offer any opinion or advice.
Lapua brass fireformed, uniformed FH and PP
Sierra 140gr
50.0 gr H4831SC
CCI BR2 primer
Coal @ ogive 2.536
Case runout was around .002 my bullet runout was pretty bad I don't know what I could do to improve that much, I'm used the Wilson chamber seat die.

Fouler.) 2791
1.) 2807 (shoulda have been a fouler)
2.) 2821
3.) 2829
4.) 2846
5.) 2837


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[Jezzro2004]

I also was getting a lot of bullet runout with the amaxs and the Berbers before that, with the amaxs led me to believe that the bushing die was sizing the slightest amount of imperfections to the inside of the case neck as my case and neck runout was good but bullet runout a different story... We're talking .007 -.008 bullet runout folks.
So for this load I'm fixing to test again I decided I would try to fine tune a little more and try again... This time playing with the die and press after seeing .003 to .004 case neck runout which I knew was from the expander, but wanted to keep the expander in place because I didn't want to make my neck tension which was already snug any tighter.
My end result was sizing the case neck, while I had the case neck in the press and the ram ran up in the die I screwed the expander ball upward as far as I could get it to go. After trying this method I was pleased to see case neck runout of .001 and less. What a difference. I loaded up my 50.0 gr of h4831sc and carefully seated some 140 sierras. I got to say after seeing bullet runout of .002 and some even less near the ogive it should be interesting to see if and what the difference is on paper.... I will continue to keep this post updated on my results.
Here's a video of one of my concentricity check after seating the bullet



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[Jezzro2004]

Well got time to shoot the more concentric loads I had today, I was pleased with the results.
I'm not sure if I'm capable of tuning any better maybe you reloading gurus could help me out some on that.
Here's today's velocities from 50.0 gr of the h4831sc this time from a dirty barrel.
1.) 2791 cold bore fouler on another target
2.) 2799
3.) 2794
4.) 2821
5.) 2793
6.) 2810
Funny thing is the velocity from shot number 1 past 2 times I have shot have been the same, that's pretty crazy.



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