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Old January 5, 2015, 11:13 PM   #1
armoredman
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Stupid question time - vertical pistol grips on pistols

I know dadgum little about NFA, but I have been told the only fore grip you can use on a railed pistol is the Magpul AFG, without changing the legality of the pistol.

If I wanted to use a vertical fore grip on a CZ EVO, would this change it to an AOW for $5, or something else? Would 922(r) apply in this case?
Why would I want to? Just a thought, might be more controllable like that, so why not, but if I did something like that, I want to make sure I am going to stay on the right side of the cell door.
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Old January 5, 2015, 11:47 PM   #2
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Anything that is a handgun, and has a second vertical grip, as in addition to the normal grip is subject to nfa and is an any other weapon, or aow.
If you purchased a registered aow on a form 4, the tax is $5. If you yourself make it on a form 1, the tax is $200.
It is legal to use the Magpul afg front grip on a handgun without changing it to an aow. The afg is not vertical, and you cannot wrap your hand around it like a standard grip.
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Old January 5, 2015, 11:48 PM   #3
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Oh, forgot. 922r does not apply to handguns, just rifles. Aows are not handguns either.
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Old January 6, 2015, 03:12 AM   #4
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what is considered a grip? Does it include pistols with magazines forward the trigger like the hammerli, walther and benelli?
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Old January 6, 2015, 11:48 AM   #5
Willie Lowman
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No, the magazine is a magazine. If it is forward of the trigger it is still just a magazine.
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Old January 6, 2015, 12:07 PM   #6
armoredman
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So that funny PPsH 43 semi auto "pistol" with the far forward magazine and permanently welded shut folding stock would be a good example of a forward magazine in a convenient spot.

http://www.slickguns.com/product/polish-pps-43c-9mm
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Old January 6, 2015, 12:56 PM   #7
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Are the CZ EVOs even out yet?

A vertical foregrip on a handgun makes it an AOW. The Magpul AFG has been explicitly ruled as not redesigning a pistol into AOW.

If you were looking to go NFA, however, wouldn't it make sense to go with one of the SBR models with the full stock? Seems far more versatile to me
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Old January 6, 2015, 04:36 PM   #8
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No, the magazine is a magazine. If it is forward of the trigger it is still just a magazine.
Thanks. I just recall reading about a girl in LA (i think) who had one and had to move because a new law made it illegal.
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Old January 7, 2015, 06:46 PM   #9
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Does't an AOW have to be manufactured as an AOW by the company that produced the firearm? unless you have a firearm that meets the criteria to be made into an AOW on a form 1?
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Old January 7, 2015, 08:21 PM   #10
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Anyone can do a form 1 and pay $200 to make an AOW. Adding a VPG would be a good example of that. I would just do it as an SBR and have a stock as well

If a SOT made a AOW and you bought it as such it is only $5 to transfer to you on a form 4.
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Old January 9, 2015, 01:05 AM   #11
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I never understood the value of a forward pistol grip on a gun, until I owned an MP5K. The front pistol grip makes the gun significantly more controllable.

It makes sense; afterall, why put your overhand over your dominant hand, when you can put the overhand on a foregrip and create more control and balance. It helps significantly with target reacquisition, too.

I've seen the forward grips that attach to an HK or glock type front rail, but those are too big. It would be awesome if Glock or HK manufactured a gun where the front foregrip was thin enough to fit integrally underneath the front area of the gun, and was thin enough to fit a traditional holster.

Alas, such a foregrip, according to an ATF opinion, constitutes manufacture of an AOW. The designation that such a design would subject the gun to NFA regulations significantly shrinks the market, and thus correspondingly shrink any manufacturers' R&D for such an item.
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Old January 9, 2015, 09:22 AM   #12
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A "grip" is designed to be "gripped" by the hand, which has always.meant the hand is wrapped around it. With the Magpul afg, you cannot do that, only cup it more like a forearm, and maybe get a finger or two in the cavity.
A magwell is not a grip, or designed to be a grip. Gripping it does not change that (kind of like shouldering the sig brace did not change its design). Adding finger grooves and shapes for gripping to a magwell in the original design could change that.
An aow can only be made from a virgin receiver, pistol, or "firearm", not from a rifle or shotgun.
The shotguns that come from the factory with a pistol grip are not considered "shotguns" by atf but "firearms". This is because the official definition of a "shotgun" or "rifle" includes that it is designed and manufactured to be fired from the shoulder, and therefore has a stock.
"firearm" is a gray category where guns that don't really fit anywhere else go. It's the non nfa version of aow category.
Therefore, an aow, such a the Serbu super shorty can legally be made from a new receiver or one of the factory equipped pistol grip shotguns, but not one that came from the factory with a stock on it. What was in the box is irrelevant, it's what was on the gun that matters. A Serbu super shorty built on a shotgun that originally came with a stock by law would have to be registered as an sbs.
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Old January 9, 2015, 09:28 AM   #13
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Oh, just adding an sot to a standard 01 or 02 ffl does not allow the ffl to make anything, only sell nfa.
To make nfa as a business, a type 07 manufacturers ffl is required, with the added sot. The business can also sell with the 07.
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Old January 11, 2015, 02:12 AM   #14
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Is there any gun where using the magazine as a grip does not transform said gun into a jam-o-matic?
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Old January 12, 2015, 12:53 AM   #15
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Sure, but generally, it's kind of a "try it and see what happens" kind of thing. If it works, great. If not, well, don't do that anymore with that gun.
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Old January 12, 2015, 10:02 PM   #16
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So, is a horizontal fore grip legal? I mean sticking straight out the side of the handguard.
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Old January 12, 2015, 10:50 PM   #17
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Nope. Cant allow a place for a second hand to hold. See the ATF definition of a pistol
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Old January 13, 2015, 12:42 AM   #18
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Not sure yet if the EVO can be SBR'd, legal experts looking into that. Was just curious, thank you for the great answers.
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Old January 13, 2015, 03:10 PM   #19
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armoredman Not sure yet if the EVO can be SBR'd, legal experts looking into that.
Why do you need "legal experts" to look into it?
Add a shoulder stock and any pistol becomes an SBR.

That's been pretty darn clear since 1934.
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Old January 13, 2015, 05:06 PM   #20
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A horizontal grip is still a second grip, so almost certainly an aow.
Any pistol can be sbr'ed. Only question comes if it's imported. Pistols do not fall under 922r, only rifles. An sbr is a rifle. I have heard lots of argument, but not a positive answer yet on whether an sbr falls under 922r.
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Old January 15, 2015, 12:55 PM   #21
armoredman
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dogtown, not so fast - 922(r) might apply since it's imported as a pistol, so no, it's not "pretty darn clear", so yes, we will wait for the ATFE decision.
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Old January 15, 2015, 02:18 PM   #22
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armoredman dogtown, not so fast - 922(r) might apply since it's imported as a pistol, so no, it's not "pretty darn clear", so yes, we will wait for the ATFE decision.
922(r) has nothing to do with the National Firearms Act of 1934.

Since the passage of that act putting a shoulder stock on a pistol makes it a short barreled rifle. Whether the pistol was made in the USA or imported has absolutely zero bearing on the NFA.

So, yeah........it's crystal clear.
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Old January 22, 2015, 11:18 AM   #23
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[QUOTE922(r) has nothing to do with the National Firearms Act of 1934.

Since the passage of that act putting a shoulder stock on a pistol makes it a short barreled rifle.][/QUOTE]

The key word here is rifle not pistol. Foreign made military style rifles are banned from importation unless they meet the 922r law. Changing it from a pistol to a rifle could make 922r apply.

Importing the EVO as a pistol could be how CZ got around 922r since 922r doesn't apply to pistols.

Armoredman, I don't know how long the EVO is but if the permanently attached parts measure 26 inches or more you can legally attach a vertical grip. You can't count any parts in the measurement that could be taken off either end of the EVO and the gun would still function.

This gets discussed a lot over at AR15.com. They have ATF letters posted over there dealing with NFA stuff also.

Last edited by candr44; January 22, 2015 at 11:25 AM.
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