Catastrophic Failure

spawndn72 · February 11, 2019, 05:39 PM

I had a catastrophic failure with my S&W model 19-5.
I was using a load of 8.9 grains of AA#7 with a 158 grain LSWC with Winchester primers.

Accurate list loads as 9.1 to 10.1 grains with AA#7. I was looking for light loads and went with the 8.9 grains.

I have shot over 300 of these rounds with no signs of pressure.

I had shot one cylinder full, loaded a second cylinder and on shot 5, there was a large flash of light and boom, the top half of the cylinder was gone along with the top strap.

A few observations:
There was no additional recoil, this one felt like all the others.
No barrel bulge, I don’t think the previous round was a squib.
The hand was sheared off even though it was fully protected by the case that was in front of it.
The cartridge to the right was heavily dented but did not go off.
I use a Dillon RL550b and I feel like I have good technique, but anything is possible. This is the first time I have had anything like this happen.

I am assuming it was a double load but the hand being sheared off is bugging me. Could a broken hand have caused the revolver to be out of time enough to cause that kind of explosion?
Could .2 grains under the minimum load cause this?
Would 17.8 grains of AA#7 be enough to cause this much damage?

Any other ideas besides don’t be so stupid in the future?

NoSecondBest · February 11, 2019, 05:43 PM

I'd be guessing, but I've been reloading for around fifty years now, so here's my best guess: double charge.

Grey_Lion · February 11, 2019, 05:47 PM

got pictures?

Nick_C_S · February 11, 2019, 06:03 PM

I don't believe a double charge (17.8 grains) of AA7 would fit in the case.

I've loaded Hornady 158 XTP's with well over your modest 8.9 grains. Too low of a charge would not cause a high pressure spike.

spawndn72 · February 11, 2019, 06:10 PM

I have pictures but I am doing this on my phone at present and couldn’t get them to post correctly. I will upload them when I get home.

I forgot to add that I pulled all other bullets in this batch and the powder charges in all of them were fine.

FrankenMauser · February 11, 2019, 06:54 PM

I am assuming it was a double load but the hand being sheared off is bugging me. Could a broken hand have caused the revolver to be out of time enough to cause that kind of explosion? No. It beats the hell out of the revolver, but if the firing pin is aligned well enough to set off the primer, the bullet will align the cylinder (quickly and violently!). I've seen it first-hand with a Taurus that was striking primers on the very edge, and sometimes getting one to initiate in full-power .357 Mag loads.

Could .2 grains under the minimum load cause this? Not without a bore or cylinder obstruction.

Would 17.8 grains of AA#7 be enough to cause this much damage? Yes. And it will fit in the case, though somewhat compressed.

BBarn · February 11, 2019, 06:56 PM

There has been some variation in Accurate's #7 data and sourcing over the years. Where was the lot of powder you were using manufactured?

And was the bullet cast or swaged?

And you were using 357 brass, correct?

**Unclenick** · February 11, 2019, 07:43 PM

Spawndn72,

Double Charge is most likely. Western Powder gives Acccurate No.7 a bulk density of ±3.6%. At the dense end and with the Sierra JSP FP, QuickLOAD says it will be just 96% case fill. Other bullets would need as much as 10% compression which wouldn't fly. So this is partly luck of the draw.

After tweaking QuickLOAD to match the manual pressure, I get 24,500 psi with 8.9 grains. 178,000 psi with 17.8 grains. Easy to blow a gun with that.

Failure to advance the index plate would be the easiest error with the 550 type press as a moment's distraction could make you lose your place It is also possible or forget to empty a case of powder if you've had to do something out of sequence to make a correction. Take a look at Inline Fabrication's lighting for your press. Those or some other lighting arrangement will help you look in every case before you set the bullet on it.

Sorry to hear of the loss of the gun. Hope you weren't injured.

spawndn72 · February 11, 2019, 08:43 PM

Answering questions:

Bullets were "Extreme Bullets" hardcast 158 gr LSWC with an overall length of 0.724
Not asked, but the cartridge length is 1.595
Powder was made in USA, Miles City, Montana
I was not hurt, not even a scratch. I was very lucky. I was also shooting on my property with no one around so no one else was hurt either.
Picture:

Untitled

std7mag · February 11, 2019, 09:09 PM

I highly doubt an out of time issue.
I've had jump fires in my Walker with 50gr of FF without this. Still scary as heck!

reynolds357 · February 11, 2019, 09:10 PM

Double charge or squib. I favor double.

**Unclenick** · February 11, 2019, 10:15 PM

It looks like a typical double charge result to me. When a squib leaves a bullet stuck in the barrel it can blow the chamber, but you usually get a bulge in the barrel and, of course, the barrel remains obstructed.

std7mag · February 11, 2019, 10:22 PM

I'm sure it was attention getting none the less!!!

disseminator · February 11, 2019, 10:36 PM

Wow, glad your ok. Thanks for posting this.

It's good for all of us to be reminded of the consequences of making a mistake.

jetinteriorguy · February 12, 2019, 06:13 AM

I just went through this last spring, the best I could figure was a lot of slightly overcharged rounds with Titegroup weakening the metal and one double charge to finally blow the top off. After over 30 years of reloading this was my first incident. I got rid of all the Titegroup and have completely revamped my method of using my progressive press to prevent this from happening in the future. Luckily now one was hurt, but I was so embarrassed.

spawndn72 · February 12, 2019, 09:07 AM

Thanks for the information everyone.
I am extremely careful with my reloading, but I guess this one just got past me. Time to re-evaluate things.

UncleNick,
I have ordered lighting.

F. Guffey · February 12, 2019, 10:54 AM

Spawn72, same old story; suddenly and all at once with no warning. I did not win friends and or influence enemies but one reloader/shooter insisted on standing next to me at the firing range while shooting his reloads. He locked his Model 66 357 S&W up with a bullet that stuck in the throat of his barrel. He could not pull the trigger, he could not rotate the cylinder, he could not pull the hammer back' it was plain and simple. He loaded one case with a primer and bullet with no powder.

I stopped, put my stuff up and then started helping him. I drove the bullet back our of the barrel and into the case in the cylinder. I opened the cylinder and then cleared his cylinder of cases and unfired ammo. "AND THEN?" He began loading the cylinder with 6 more rounds and I asked him how many of the cases had powder, too much powder, not enough powder???? etc.. We offered him ammo, we offered to help him tools, components and lesson. It was not long before he got mad and left.

He was convinced there was nothing that could be done to check his ammo once the bullet was seated. I disagreed; I explained to him he could have weighed his cases, primers, bullets and powder before loading, after loading he could have weighed the gross weight of the rounds to determine the amount of powder in each.

I could only figure there was something exciting about pulling the trigger without knowing what was going to happen. Had he stayed and continued to shoot I we were leaving.

Years ago a member insisted on shooting reduced loads in his 257 Weatherby; he rendered the rifle scrap, The rifle shattered like glass; and they said "it must have been a double load".

Bruce Hodgdon came to our house one day; My oldest brother was shooting 10 ft. high into a river bank, the rifle was a Model 70 270. It was before 1970. the bolt had to be hammered open etc.

There was no "musta been a double change", Long story.

F. Guffey

RC20 · February 12, 2019, 11:10 AM

Spanddn72: Glad you are ok. Back in the 70s I think I poped off a squib into a Rugger 44 mag and then follow up shot with no issues. Lesson in shooting to fast and reloads (though it applies to any shooting) - once I realized what I possibly did despite the 85 degree heat I went cold.

Unclenick: Thanks for the data and running the calcs. I had not a clue what a double charge would do pressure wise so just looking at the answers.

Me, I like data (and fact of course) - even if at times I get egg on my face thinking I know something I don't.

Question: What is the HAND item that is being refereed to. I though I knew pistol parts and names of those but that is ?

spawndn72 · February 12, 2019, 11:21 AM

RC20,

The hand is the arm that moves up when you cock the gun. It rotates the cylinder into place.

RC20 · February 12, 2019, 11:38 AM

Thank you. Now I know what to look for parts wise and details.

I think I just called it the arm. Never had a reason to replace one.

IMtheNRA · February 12, 2019, 01:36 PM

Couldn't a crack in a fatigued cylinder lead to this sort of failure as well?

spawndn72 · February 12, 2019, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Couldn't a crack in a fatigued cylinder lead to this sort of failure as well?

I don't know, but I think the replacement for this is going either be a new model 66 or a new model 686.

T. O'Heir · February 12, 2019, 02:21 PM

"...went with the 8.9 grains..." Which is below minimum. Not enough to cause that damaged though. The 17.8 certainly could.
The Max load pressure is 33,228 PSI. 66,456 PSI at a double charge of 20.2. Still a lot of 'ifs' involved though.
"...thought I knew pistol parts..." Isn't a pistol and the Hand is the wee part that rotates the cylinder.

stephen426 · February 12, 2019, 02:38 PM

Wow! Glad you are okay. Sorry about your gun.

FrankenMauser · February 12, 2019, 03:43 PM

Looks like a double-charge to me.

As Unclenick stated, bore obstructions usually result in barrel damage, as well - a bulge or lodged bullet(s), at a minimum. But, bore obstructions usually don't result in total destruction of the top strap and cylinder. More often than not, they just end up as bulges and cracks.

February 11, 2019, 05:39 PM	#1
spawndn72 Member Join Date: July 13, 2007 Posts: 95	Catastrophic Failure I had a catastrophic failure with my S&W model 19-5. I was using a load of 8.9 grains of AA#7 with a 158 grain LSWC with Winchester primers. Accurate list loads as 9.1 to 10.1 grains with AA#7. I was looking for light loads and went with the 8.9 grains. I have shot over 300 of these rounds with no signs of pressure. I had shot one cylinder full, loaded a second cylinder and on shot 5, there was a large flash of light and boom, the top half of the cylinder was gone along with the top strap. A few observations: There was no additional recoil, this one felt like all the others. No barrel bulge, I don’t think the previous round was a squib. The hand was sheared off even though it was fully protected by the case that was in front of it. The cartridge to the right was heavily dented but did not go off. I use a Dillon RL550b and I feel like I have good technique, but anything is possible. This is the first time I have had anything like this happen. I am assuming it was a double load but the hand being sheared off is bugging me. Could a broken hand have caused the revolver to be out of time enough to cause that kind of explosion? Could .2 grains under the minimum load cause this? Would 17.8 grains of AA#7 be enough to cause this much damage? Any other ideas besides don’t be so stupid in the future?

February 11, 2019, 06:03 PM	#4
Nick_C_S Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2013 Location: Idaho Posts: 5,523	I don't believe a double charge (17.8 grains) of AA7 would fit in the case. I've loaded Hornady 158 XTP's with well over your modest 8.9 grains. Too low of a charge would not cause a high pressure spike. __________________ Gun control laws benefit only criminals and politicians - but then, I repeat myself. Life Member, National Rifle Association

February 11, 2019, 06:54 PM	#6
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	I am assuming it was a double load but the hand being sheared off is bugging me. Could a broken hand have caused the revolver to be out of time enough to cause that kind of explosion? No. It beats the hell out of the revolver, but if the firing pin is aligned well enough to set off the primer, the bullet will align the cylinder (quickly and violently!). I've seen it first-hand with a Taurus that was striking primers on the very edge, and sometimes getting one to initiate in full-power .357 Mag loads. Could .2 grains under the minimum load cause this? Not without a bore or cylinder obstruction. Would 17.8 grains of AA#7 be enough to cause this much damage? Yes. And it will fit in the case, though somewhat compressed. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

February 11, 2019, 07:43 PM	#8
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Spawndn72, Double Charge is most likely. Western Powder gives Acccurate No.7 a bulk density of ±3.6%. At the dense end and with the Sierra JSP FP, QuickLOAD says it will be just 96% case fill. Other bullets would need as much as 10% compression which wouldn't fly. So this is partly luck of the draw. After tweaking QuickLOAD to match the manual pressure, I get 24,500 psi with 8.9 grains. 178,000 psi with 17.8 grains. Easy to blow a gun with that. Failure to advance the index plate would be the easiest error with the 550 type press as a moment's distraction could make you lose your place It is also possible or forget to empty a case of powder if you've had to do something out of sequence to make a correction. Take a look at Inline Fabrication's lighting for your press. Those or some other lighting arrangement will help you look in every case before you set the bullet on it. Sorry to hear of the loss of the gun. Hope you weren't injured. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

February 11, 2019, 09:09 PM	#10
std7mag Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2013 Location: Central Taxylvania.. Posts: 3,609	I highly doubt an out of time issue. I've had jump fires in my Walker with 50gr of FF without this. Still scary as heck! __________________ When our own government declares itself as "tyrannical", where does that leave us??!! "Januarary 6th insurrection". Funny, I didn't see a single piece of rope...

February 11, 2019, 05:43 PM	#2
NoSecondBest Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Western New York Posts: 2,736	I'd be guessing, but I've been reloading for around fifty years now, so here's my best guess: double charge.

February 11, 2019, 05:47 PM	#3
Grey_Lion Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2018 Location: Baton Rouge - Louisiana Posts: 407	got pictures?

February 11, 2019, 06:10 PM	#5
spawndn72 Member Join Date: July 13, 2007 Posts: 95	I have pictures but I am doing this on my phone at present and couldn’t get them to post correctly. I will upload them when I get home. I forgot to add that I pulled all other bullets in this batch and the powder charges in all of them were fine.

February 11, 2019, 06:56 PM	#7
BBarn Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2015 Posts: 887	There has been some variation in Accurate's #7 data and sourcing over the years. Where was the lot of powder you were using manufactured? And was the bullet cast or swaged? And you were using 357 brass, correct? Last edited by BBarn; February 11, 2019 at 07:01 PM.

February 11, 2019, 08:43 PM	#9
spawndn72 Member Join Date: July 13, 2007 Posts: 95	Answering questions: Bullets were "Extreme Bullets" hardcast 158 gr LSWC with an overall length of 0.724 Not asked, but the cartridge length is 1.595 Powder was made in USA, Miles City, Montana I was not hurt, not even a scratch. I was very lucky. I was also shooting on my property with no one around so no one else was hurt either. Picture: Untitled

February 11, 2019, 09:10 PM	#11
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	Double charge or squib. I favor double.

February 11, 2019, 10:15 PM	#12
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	It looks like a typical double charge result to me. When a squib leaves a bullet stuck in the barrel it can blow the chamber, but you usually get a bulge in the barrel and, of course, the barrel remains obstructed. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

February 11, 2019, 10:22 PM	#13
std7mag Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2013 Location: Central Taxylvania.. Posts: 3,609	I'm sure it was attention getting none the less!!! __________________ When our own government declares itself as "tyrannical", where does that leave us??!! "Januarary 6th insurrection". Funny, I didn't see a single piece of rope...

February 11, 2019, 10:36 PM	#14
disseminator Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2016 Location: Minnesota Posts: 960	Wow, glad your ok. Thanks for posting this. It's good for all of us to be reminded of the consequences of making a mistake.

February 12, 2019, 06:13 AM	#15
jetinteriorguy Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2013 Posts: 3,176	I just went through this last spring, the best I could figure was a lot of slightly overcharged rounds with Titegroup weakening the metal and one double charge to finally blow the top off. After over 30 years of reloading this was my first incident. I got rid of all the Titegroup and have completely revamped my method of using my progressive press to prevent this from happening in the future. Luckily now one was hurt, but I was so embarrassed.

February 12, 2019, 09:07 AM	#16
spawndn72 Member Join Date: July 13, 2007 Posts: 95	Thanks for the information everyone. I am extremely careful with my reloading, but I guess this one just got past me. Time to re-evaluate things. UncleNick, I have ordered lighting.

February 12, 2019, 10:54 AM	#17
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Spawn72, same old story; suddenly and all at once with no warning. I did not win friends and or influence enemies but one reloader/shooter insisted on standing next to me at the firing range while shooting his reloads. He locked his Model 66 357 S&W up with a bullet that stuck in the throat of his barrel. He could not pull the trigger, he could not rotate the cylinder, he could not pull the hammer back' it was plain and simple. He loaded one case with a primer and bullet with no powder. I stopped, put my stuff up and then started helping him. I drove the bullet back our of the barrel and into the case in the cylinder. I opened the cylinder and then cleared his cylinder of cases and unfired ammo. "AND THEN?" He began loading the cylinder with 6 more rounds and I asked him how many of the cases had powder, too much powder, not enough powder???? etc.. We offered him ammo, we offered to help him tools, components and lesson. It was not long before he got mad and left. He was convinced there was nothing that could be done to check his ammo once the bullet was seated. I disagreed; I explained to him he could have weighed his cases, primers, bullets and powder before loading, after loading he could have weighed the gross weight of the rounds to determine the amount of powder in each. I could only figure there was something exciting about pulling the trigger without knowing what was going to happen. Had he stayed and continued to shoot I we were leaving. Years ago a member insisted on shooting reduced loads in his 257 Weatherby; he rendered the rifle scrap, The rifle shattered like glass; and they said "it must have been a double load". Bruce Hodgdon came to our house one day; My oldest brother was shooting 10 ft. high into a river bank, the rifle was a Model 70 270. It was before 1970. the bolt had to be hammered open etc. There was no "musta been a double change", Long story. F. Guffey

February 12, 2019, 11:10 AM	#18
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	Spanddn72: Glad you are ok. Back in the 70s I think I poped off a squib into a Rugger 44 mag and then follow up shot with no issues. Lesson in shooting to fast and reloads (though it applies to any shooting) - once I realized what I possibly did despite the 85 degree heat I went cold. Unclenick: Thanks for the data and running the calcs. I had not a clue what a double charge would do pressure wise so just looking at the answers. Me, I like data (and fact of course) - even if at times I get egg on my face thinking I know something I don't. Question: What is the HAND item that is being refereed to. I though I knew pistol parts and names of those but that is ? __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

February 12, 2019, 11:21 AM	#19
spawndn72 Member Join Date: July 13, 2007 Posts: 95	RC20, The hand is the arm that moves up when you cock the gun. It rotates the cylinder into place.

February 12, 2019, 11:38 AM	#20
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	Thank you. Now I know what to look for parts wise and details. I think I just called it the arm. Never had a reason to replace one. __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

February 12, 2019, 01:36 PM	#21
IMtheNRA Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2001 Posts: 298	Couldn't a crack in a fatigued cylinder lead to this sort of failure as well?

February 12, 2019, 02:21 PM	#23
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...went with the 8.9 grains..." Which is below minimum. Not enough to cause that damaged though. The 17.8 certainly could. The Max load pressure is 33,228 PSI. 66,456 PSI at a double charge of 20.2. Still a lot of 'ifs' involved though. "...thought I knew pistol parts..." Isn't a pistol and the Hand is the wee part that rotates the cylinder. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

February 12, 2019, 02:38 PM	#24
stephen426 Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Posts: 3,840	Wow! Glad you are okay. Sorry about your gun. __________________ The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!

February 12, 2019, 03:43 PM	#25
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	Looks like a double-charge to me. As Unclenick stated, bore obstructions usually result in barrel damage, as well - a bulge or lodged bullet(s), at a minimum. But, bore obstructions usually don't result in total destruction of the top strap and cylinder. More often than not, they just end up as bulges and cracks. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.