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June 3, 2018, 06:24 AM | #26 |
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Use this link to play around with some numbers.
http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp If you don't have access to a loading manual use this site to find loads including expected velocity and powder charges. http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/ The results are often surprising. Very often a lighter bullet, moving faster will burn more powder and recoil more than a heavier bullet moving slower. There are 4 factors to recoil and all have to be considered. Weight of firearm Weight of projectile Weight of powder charge Velocity of projectile Plug in those numbers you'll get real numbers on ACTUAL recoil. Of course how it feels is different and is impossible to accurately measure. Some handguns with a narrow grip concentrate the recoil into a smaller part of your hand and FEEL like they have more recoil than a handgun with a wider grip. Depending on barrel length and balance some guns have more or less muzzle flip. Plastic guns have some flex in the frame that spreads the recoil out over a longer period of time and makes it feel softer. A recoil pad on a long gun does the same thing.
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June 3, 2018, 06:51 PM | #27 |
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Frank Etten's post on page one is useful. Many others have added useful things as well.
The formula's for standard mechanical recoil works very well on what they were designed for. But they do not translate directly to felt recoil. They can only give you a rough idea there. This is due mostly to the action of the slide dissipating the recoil impulse (the same is true for semiautomatic rifles). In a revolver that force generated as a recoil impulse is transferred directly to the hand of the shooter while in a semi it is not. Compensators and porting also effect felt recoil by directing the hot gases upward which helps to keep muzzle flip lower. Get a copy of the book "Understanding Firearm Ballistics" by Robert Rinker. If we want to be simple the main thing is weight. Weight of the gun and weight of the bullet. If we want a bullet pf x weight to move at x velocity it is going to need x energy to do it. Increase or decrease the weight of the bullet and it's velocity and the energy need to do that also changes. More energy more recoil. A 200 gr. bullet at 1000 fps takes more energy to do that than a 115 gr. bullet at 1000 fps. So greater recoil for the heavier bullet. tipoc
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June 3, 2018, 08:49 PM | #28 | |
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June 3, 2018, 09:09 PM | #29 | |
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Seems like some sort of phenomenon with new shooters to be all worried about recoil.
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June 4, 2018, 11:01 AM | #30 |
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The most important way you will learn is to go shoot. Then study why.
tipoc
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June 4, 2018, 05:22 PM | #31 |
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You got it
That's the key, what we are speaking of here is felt recoil. Highly subjective.
9mm Makarov. I don't consider that a high recoil caliber, in my old CZ 83 it's a pussycat round. The PA63? I'm good for a mag or two before I say enough, with ammo from the same box. The PA63 is a single stack aluminum frame. It's esp. narrow and would be far more comfortable with grips that fill out the frame. The CZ is not only heavier, it's a lot wider which spreads the recoil out. Now my Contender with the original grip on it.....that one will get your attention. Need to put rubber grips on it. Hot .44 mag is painful. I find the hand filling grip to be number one for me, with weight a close second with regard to FELT recoil.
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June 4, 2018, 09:06 PM | #32 |
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With all this discussion, I am surprised that no one has mentioned that recoil is under the umbrella of Newton's 3rd law: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Newton's 3rd led to the definition of momentum, which is mass times velocity. The mass of bullet plus powder times velocity of bullet plus powder equals the mass of the loaded gun times the backwards velocity of the gun. (I have forgotten how to figure the velocity of powder, but let's ignore that for now.) We also have conservation of momentum, which can be written as M1 x V1 = M2 x V2.
Your perceived recoil is greatly affected by the mass of the gun. Imagine you put your shoulder up to a rifle that weighed a million pounds, and fired a standard .308 rifle bullet. Your perceived recoil would be essentially zero. That is because when you put a huge mass into the M x V calculation, the rearward velocity of the gun would be essentially zero. On the other hand, a light weight gun means significant rearward velocity of the gun, which you would feel more, even if M x V is the same. To some extent, the shape of the gun affects perceived recoil. The type of action can have an effect: some semi-autos reduce perceived recoil by causing a delay. Last edited by cjwils; June 4, 2018 at 09:29 PM. |
June 4, 2018, 09:16 PM | #33 |
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thanks guys i understand on the muzzle velocity and muzzle energy, if everything else being equal, the higher the muzzle velocity and energy then the harder or snappier recoil.
ok now i have another question. Lets say not everything is equal for the exception of the pistol which lets say a kimber 1911 , 4 inch barell, 45... Which round would make the gun recoil more ? Only way is to shoot them ? ive tried it and i don't think i can tell that much. 45 ACP - 230 gr HST JHP - Federal Premium Personal Defense Muzzle Velocity - 890 Muzzle Energy 404 vs 45 ACP - 185 Grain JHP - Speer Gold Dot Muzzle Velocity - 1050 Muzzle Energy - 453 Last edited by keegan; June 4, 2018 at 09:24 PM. |
June 4, 2018, 09:30 PM | #34 |
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Compare M x V.
Energy is not a direct consideration in calculating recoil. You can ignore the fact that weight and mass are different, because you want the ratio, so the weight to mass conversion factors cancel out Last edited by cjwils; June 4, 2018 at 09:46 PM. |
June 4, 2018, 10:31 PM | #35 | |
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June 4, 2018, 11:39 PM | #36 | |
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June 5, 2018, 07:38 AM | #37 |
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i don't have the powder charge in either of those rounds so i wasn't able to input that section on both calculators. One calculator was asking for charge weight and the other one powder charge
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June 5, 2018, 11:15 AM | #38 | |
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You can always use data from a online loading manual, such as the Hodgdon manual, or from Western Powders, Alliant, and so on. Pick the same powder that is used for both weights to make it a fair comparison. You don't need to be especially picky about trying to match velocities. For most factory loads, they tend to use what would be near the maximum charge weight for a given powder. |
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June 5, 2018, 09:10 PM | #39 | |
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Verdict is in.. haha - 185 with less recoil. |
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June 6, 2018, 06:47 AM | #40 |
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If you really want to feel recoil, fire a 125 grain 357 magnum from a 12 oz J frame.
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June 6, 2018, 12:12 PM | #41 | |
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The physics you should study some. But shoot more to see the reality of it and this will deepen your understanding. It helps to see the variables in action. This is why some of the accurate information here may seem contradictory. tipoc
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1. All guns are always loaded. 2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. 3. Keep your finger off the trigger till you are ready to shoot. 4. Identify your target and know what is beyond it. Last edited by tipoc; June 6, 2018 at 12:18 PM. |
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June 10, 2018, 02:43 PM | #42 | |
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Is table 1 also saying with 5 grain of gun powder, it is achievable to reach 165 power factor for each round ? |
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June 10, 2018, 05:02 PM | #43 |
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Table 1 is meant to show that, IF the different bullet weights used the same 5 grains of powder weight to achieve their required velocity to produce the same power factor, they would produce the same recoil force.
But they don't, at least not if you use the same gunpowder. The same powder charge weight (using the same powder) does not produce higher velocity with lighter bullets. It usually produces less velocity, and it certainly results in the lighter bullets producing a much lower power factor, which is shown in Table 2. Light bullets need MORE gunpowder to reach their required higher velocity (Table 3). Because of this, when you do the math (or use a Ransom Rest), the lighter bullets end up producing slightly more recoil force than the heavy bullets to produce the same power factor (when using the same gunpowder). If you put a compensator on the gun, the results are reversed, and lighter bullets produce less muzzle rise than heavy bullets. More powder weight means more gas and gas pressure. More gas pressure pushing up via the compensator (or ports) causes more force pushing down via Newton's third law. That's why a lot of competitive shooters use light bullets in their compensated race guns. http://www.shootingtimes.com/reloadi...-compensators/ |
June 10, 2018, 07:03 PM | #44 |
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I would avoid the articles on this by Brad Miller. The articles are self contradictory and often based on false premises. To cite just one example is the idea that a good way to measure recoil is to judge how far a gun moves when clamped in a Ransom rest. That really tells you not much for the purposes of this discussion.
Standard formulas on recoil are based on good formula and are accurate for what they do show. They show mechanical recoil. That is based on Newtonian physics that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. So the formulas will tell you how much force from the burning powder will show up as an equal force moving rearward as recoil. The factors here are the weight of the gun, the burning rate of the powder (hence the rate of expansion of the gas), the weight of the bullet, etc. It will tell you nothing about perceived recoil or how it is felt to the shooter. It can't. The formulas are more applicable to long guns and artillery than to handguns. They were developed for artillery and long guns. The mechanical recoil force will be the same whether a gun is compensated or not. It will be the same whether the gun has a long or short barrel. It will be the same whether it's a revolver or pistol. Felt recoil, or how that force is perceived, is different. Very different. That's effected by a variety of factors. I encourage you to get a hold of Rinker's book. Or Hatcher's writings on this subject. These two articles may be of some help to you. http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...istols-part-1/ https://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_recoil_table.htm tipoc
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June 10, 2018, 07:37 PM | #45 | |
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I see no contradictions or false premises. The Ransom Rest results in the article on power factor and bullet weight (Figure 3) are compared to the mathematically calculated recoil force (Figure 4) and they look the same. That suggests the RR's movement is a useful tool for measuring relative recoil force. |
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June 10, 2018, 07:56 PM | #46 |
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In the article I linked to by Zimmerman they use the movement of a laser to account for recoil based on the jump of the muzzle during firing. But they also explain that it is not exactly scientific and explains why. Here they are a bit more careful and honest than Miller. Zimmerman also has the advantage in knowing that he is only giving a rough explanation which can help some folks understand the difference but is only that.
Miller's experiment has no actual meaning beyond what it is. It shows how much a Ransom rest jumps. The best way to learn is to go and shoot. tipoc
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June 10, 2018, 09:29 PM | #47 |
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In the Zimmerman article the gun was hand-held. This is not an objective measure of gun movement. It is subjective and they describe it as “with no particular effort to control the recoil”. The only way it would be valid is if they MEASURED the resistance the shooter applied to the gun hand/arm/shoulder etc for every shot. He didn’t. I don’t know how that would even be possible. With all due respect to Zimmerman, the results must be taken with a grain of salt because he has not accounted for the biggest source of variation that can contribute to gun/dot movement - how much resistance is applied to the hand-held gun.
A difference shooter could get different, contradictory results. Hence the problem with hand-held shooting. The Ransom Rest is a mechanical device that is objective, not subjective like a hand-held gun. The RR offers the same resistance for every shot. Its movement can be measured. Its movement can be statistically compared via correlation to velocity, which the author did in the “how to measure relative recoil” article. Its data can be compared to the mathematical model for recoil. The Author did that and discussed the meaning of the results. The actual movement data was shown as were the statistics. How much more honest can you get???? |
June 11, 2018, 04:52 PM | #48 | |
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Miller's test is certainly objective or objective-ish. But then so are EPA ratings of mile per gallon for a motor vehicle. The EPA rests the driving wheels on a piece of test equipment indoors in a lab and measures the speed of the vehicle and how much gas is consumed per mile of travel on an indoor apparatus. The test results are valid only and just for that, average MPG on a piece of lab equipment on an indoor track. Those tests do not transfer to actual driving conditions and actual average MPG. They can't. The tests by Miller show you only what they show you. How much movement there is in a Ransom rest when a gun is fired with x bullets and x loads. Based on his testing which may or may not be more or less rigid. That's all they show. Only he does not explain that simply. It is as vague as a mathematical formula, more so. We don't all have Ransom rests. We do have handguns. We know from experience that the felt recoil from a Walther PPK in 380acp is stouter than the felt recoil from a Sig P238 in 380acp with the same loads and weight bullets. Even though the formulas show us that mechanical recoil is less in the heavier Walther. This is due to the fixed barrel of the Walther vs. the tilt barrel of the Sig P238...the construction of the pistol. So go shoot and learn this for yourself. Shoot a M1917 in 45acp and a 1911 in 45acp side by side and feel the difference. tipoc
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1. All guns are always loaded. 2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. 3. Keep your finger off the trigger till you are ready to shoot. 4. Identify your target and know what is beyond it. |
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June 13, 2018, 12:16 PM | #49 |
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It's simple, it DEPENDs on the shooter perception!
my wife cannot shoot a Woodsman using standard velocity .22 LR ammo. Both daughter love it. youngest has a LCP, eldest has 2" Charter arms. Pick a comfortable feeling sidearm and practice with lowest velocity ammo until itis second nature. |
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