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Old June 3, 2018, 06:24 AM   #26
jmr40
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Use this link to play around with some numbers.

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

If you don't have access to a loading manual use this site to find loads including expected velocity and powder charges.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/

The results are often surprising. Very often a lighter bullet, moving faster will burn more powder and recoil more than a heavier bullet moving slower. There are 4 factors to recoil and all have to be considered.

Weight of firearm
Weight of projectile
Weight of powder charge
Velocity of projectile

Plug in those numbers you'll get real numbers on ACTUAL recoil.

Of course how it feels is different and is impossible to accurately measure. Some handguns with a narrow grip concentrate the recoil into a smaller part of your hand and FEEL like they have more recoil than a handgun with a wider grip. Depending on barrel length and balance some guns have more or less muzzle flip. Plastic guns have some flex in the frame that spreads the recoil out over a longer period of time and makes it feel softer. A recoil pad on a long gun does the same thing.
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Old June 3, 2018, 06:51 PM   #27
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Frank Etten's post on page one is useful. Many others have added useful things as well.

The formula's for standard mechanical recoil works very well on what they were designed for. But they do not translate directly to felt recoil. They can only give you a rough idea there. This is due mostly to the action of the slide dissipating the recoil impulse (the same is true for semiautomatic rifles). In a revolver that force generated as a recoil impulse is transferred directly to the hand of the shooter while in a semi it is not.

Compensators and porting also effect felt recoil by directing the hot gases upward which helps to keep muzzle flip lower.

Get a copy of the book "Understanding Firearm Ballistics" by Robert Rinker.

If we want to be simple the main thing is weight. Weight of the gun and weight of the bullet. If we want a bullet pf x weight to move at x velocity it is going to need x energy to do it. Increase or decrease the weight of the bullet and it's velocity and the energy need to do that also changes. More energy more recoil. A 200 gr. bullet at 1000 fps takes more energy to do that than a 115 gr. bullet at 1000 fps. So greater recoil for the heavier bullet.

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Old June 3, 2018, 08:49 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by jmr40 View Post
Use this link to play around with some numbers.

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

If you don't have access to a loading manual use this site to find loads including expected velocity and powder charges.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/

The results are often surprising. Very often a lighter bullet, moving faster will burn more powder and recoil more than a heavier bullet moving slower. There are 4 factors to recoil and all have to be considered.

Weight of firearm
Weight of projectile
Weight of powder charge
Velocity of projectile

Plug in those numbers you'll get real numbers on ACTUAL recoil.

Of course how it feels is different and is impossible to accurately measure. Some handguns with a narrow grip concentrate the recoil into a smaller part of your hand and FEEL like they have more recoil than a handgun with a wider grip. Depending on barrel length and balance some guns have more or less muzzle flip. Plastic guns have some flex in the frame that spreads the recoil out over a longer period of time and makes it feel softer. A recoil pad on a long gun does the same thing.
thank you for that information, ill have to look up federal ammo powder charge because i don't see it on that website but great data in there.
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Old June 3, 2018, 09:09 PM   #29
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I ask cause I personally struggle on trying to figure out which one has more recoil when I’m at the rainge.
Assuming you mean while shooting at the range then what difference does it make. Shoot what you shoot best, and don't get hung up on all this recoil nonsense.
Seems like some sort of phenomenon with new shooters to be all worried about recoil.
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Old June 4, 2018, 11:01 AM   #30
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Old June 4, 2018, 05:22 PM   #31
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You got it

That's the key, what we are speaking of here is felt recoil. Highly subjective.

9mm Makarov. I don't consider that a high recoil caliber, in my old CZ 83 it's a pussycat round.

The PA63? I'm good for a mag or two before I say enough, with ammo from the same box.
The PA63 is a single stack aluminum frame. It's esp. narrow and would be far more comfortable with grips that fill out the frame.

The CZ is not only heavier, it's a lot wider which spreads the recoil out.

Now my Contender with the original grip on it.....that one will get your attention. Need to put rubber grips on it. Hot .44 mag is painful.

I find the hand filling grip to be number one for me, with weight a close second with regard to FELT recoil.
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Old June 4, 2018, 09:06 PM   #32
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With all this discussion, I am surprised that no one has mentioned that recoil is under the umbrella of Newton's 3rd law: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Newton's 3rd led to the definition of momentum, which is mass times velocity. The mass of bullet plus powder times velocity of bullet plus powder equals the mass of the loaded gun times the backwards velocity of the gun. (I have forgotten how to figure the velocity of powder, but let's ignore that for now.) We also have conservation of momentum, which can be written as M1 x V1 = M2 x V2.

Your perceived recoil is greatly affected by the mass of the gun. Imagine you put your shoulder up to a rifle that weighed a million pounds, and fired a standard .308 rifle bullet. Your perceived recoil would be essentially zero. That is because when you put a huge mass into the M x V calculation, the rearward velocity of the gun would be essentially zero. On the other hand, a light weight gun means significant rearward velocity of the gun, which you would feel more, even if M x V is the same.

To some extent, the shape of the gun affects perceived recoil. The type of action can have an effect: some semi-autos reduce perceived recoil by causing a delay.

Last edited by cjwils; June 4, 2018 at 09:29 PM.
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Old June 4, 2018, 09:16 PM   #33
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thanks guys i understand on the muzzle velocity and muzzle energy, if everything else being equal, the higher the muzzle velocity and energy then the harder or snappier recoil.

ok now i have another question. Lets say not everything is equal for the exception of the pistol which lets say a kimber 1911 , 4 inch barell, 45...

Which round would make the gun recoil more ? Only way is to shoot them ? ive tried it and i don't think i can tell that much.

45 ACP - 230 gr HST JHP - Federal Premium Personal Defense
Muzzle Velocity - 890
Muzzle Energy 404

vs

45 ACP - 185 Grain JHP - Speer Gold Dot
Muzzle Velocity - 1050
Muzzle Energy - 453

Last edited by keegan; June 4, 2018 at 09:24 PM.
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Old June 4, 2018, 09:30 PM   #34
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Compare M x V.

Energy is not a direct consideration in calculating recoil.

You can ignore the fact that weight and mass are different, because you want the ratio, so the weight to mass conversion factors cancel out

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Old June 4, 2018, 10:31 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keegan
Which round would make the gun recoil more ? Only way is to shoot them ? ive tried it and i don't think i can tell that much.

45 ACP - 230 gr HST JHP - Federal Premium Personal Defense
Muzzle Velocity - 890
Muzzle Energy 404

vs

45 ACP - 185 Grain JHP - Speer Gold Dot
Muzzle Velocity - 1050
Muzzle Energy - 453
The recoil numbers will be similar, but the felt recoil will be different. Recoil from the heavier, 230-grain bullet will be more of a solid push/thump against the hand and arm. Recoil from the lighter 185-grain bullet will be a quicker, snappier impulse.
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Old June 4, 2018, 11:39 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by keegan View Post
thanks guys i understand on the muzzle velocity and muzzle energy, if everything else being equal, the higher the muzzle velocity and energy then the harder or snappier recoil.

ok now i have another question. Lets say not everything is equal for the exception of the pistol which lets say a kimber 1911 , 4 inch barell, 45...

Which round would make the gun recoil more ? Only way is to shoot them ? ive tried it and i don't think i can tell that much.

45 ACP - 230 gr HST JHP - Federal Premium Personal Defense
Muzzle Velocity - 890
Muzzle Energy 404

vs

45 ACP - 185 Grain JHP - Speer Gold Dot
Muzzle Velocity - 1050
Muzzle Energy - 453
Plug those numbers into the recoil calculators at the links previously posted and let us know what they say.
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Old June 5, 2018, 07:38 AM   #37
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Plug those numbers into the recoil calculators at the links previously posted and let us know what they say.
i don't have the powder charge in either of those rounds so i wasn't able to input that section on both calculators. One calculator was asking for charge weight and the other one powder charge
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Old June 5, 2018, 11:15 AM   #38
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i don't have the powder charge in either of those rounds so i wasn't able to input that section on both calculators. One calculator was asking for charge weight and the other one powder charge
For this purpose, use 5 grains for the 230 grain bullet, and 6 grains for the 185 grain bullet. This is consistent with the article in Shooting Times, where the heavier bullet uses less powder than the lighter bullet.

You can always use data from a online loading manual, such as the Hodgdon manual, or from Western Powders, Alliant, and so on. Pick the same powder that is used for both weights to make it a fair comparison. You don't need to be especially picky about trying to match velocities. For most factory loads, they tend to use what would be near the maximum charge weight for a given powder.
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Old June 5, 2018, 09:10 PM   #39
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For this purpose, use 5 grains for the 230 grain bullet, and 6 grains for the 185 grain bullet. This is consistent with the article in Shooting Times, where the heavier bullet uses less powder than the lighter bullet.

You can always use data from a online loading manual, such as the Hodgdon manual, or from Western Powders, Alliant, and so on. Pick the same powder that is used for both weights to make it a fair comparison. You don't need to be especially picky about trying to match velocities. For most factory loads, they tend to use what would be near the maximum charge weight for a given powder.
thank you. for manufacture and gunpowder, i used winchester 231, just didn't know which one to use from starting loads or maximum load so i just tried both grain powders and plugged them in.

Verdict is in.. haha - 185 with less recoil.
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Old June 6, 2018, 06:47 AM   #40
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If you really want to feel recoil, fire a 125 grain 357 magnum from a 12 oz J frame.
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Old June 6, 2018, 12:12 PM   #41
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thanks guys i understand on the muzzle velocity and muzzle energy, if everything else being equal, the higher the muzzle velocity and energy then the harder or snappier recoil.
Well that's part of it. If the weight of the bullets are identical the faster bullet will generate more energy and thus more recoil force. Basic Newtonian physics. It takes more energy to move the bullet faster, thus more recoil.

The physics you should study some. But shoot more to see the reality of it and this will deepen your understanding. It helps to see the variables in action. This is why some of the accurate information here may seem contradictory.

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Old June 10, 2018, 02:43 PM   #42
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Table 1 shows the theoretical model where different bullet weights pushed to the same power factor will produce the same recoil IF they used the same amount of powder. Data presented later shows that different bullet weights require different amounts of powder to produce the same power factor (Table 3). Heavier bullets require less powder.

5 grains of powder was arbitrarily used in Table 1 for the calculations, but the data is theoretical and not from live ammo.

If different bullets are loaded with the same amount of powder, heavier bullets go faster than light bullets and produce a much larger power factor. That data is shown in Table 2.
I was confused with table 1. Are they saying if they use the same amount of gun powder which is 5 grain, those velocities is where each round would be at for each weight?

Is table 1 also saying with 5 grain of gun powder, it is achievable to reach 165 power factor for each round ?
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Old June 10, 2018, 05:02 PM   #43
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Table 1 is meant to show that, IF the different bullet weights used the same 5 grains of powder weight to achieve their required velocity to produce the same power factor, they would produce the same recoil force.

But they don't, at least not if you use the same gunpowder. The same powder charge weight (using the same powder) does not produce higher velocity with lighter bullets. It usually produces less velocity, and it certainly results in the lighter bullets producing a much lower power factor, which is shown in Table 2.

Light bullets need MORE gunpowder to reach their required higher velocity (Table 3). Because of this, when you do the math (or use a Ransom Rest), the lighter bullets end up producing slightly more recoil force than the heavy bullets to produce the same power factor (when using the same gunpowder).

If you put a compensator on the gun, the results are reversed, and lighter bullets produce less muzzle rise than heavy bullets. More powder weight means more gas and gas pressure. More gas pressure pushing up via the compensator (or ports) causes more force pushing down via Newton's third law. That's why a lot of competitive shooters use light bullets in their compensated race guns. http://www.shootingtimes.com/reloadi...-compensators/
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Old June 10, 2018, 07:03 PM   #44
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I would avoid the articles on this by Brad Miller. The articles are self contradictory and often based on false premises. To cite just one example is the idea that a good way to measure recoil is to judge how far a gun moves when clamped in a Ransom rest. That really tells you not much for the purposes of this discussion.

Standard formulas on recoil are based on good formula and are accurate for what they do show. They show mechanical recoil. That is based on Newtonian physics that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. So the formulas will tell you how much force from the burning powder will show up as an equal force moving rearward as recoil. The factors here are the weight of the gun, the burning rate of the powder (hence the rate of expansion of the gas), the weight of the bullet, etc.

It will tell you nothing about perceived recoil or how it is felt to the shooter. It can't. The formulas are more applicable to long guns and artillery than to handguns. They were developed for artillery and long guns.

The mechanical recoil force will be the same whether a gun is compensated or not. It will be the same whether the gun has a long or short barrel. It will be the same whether it's a revolver or pistol.

Felt recoil, or how that force is perceived, is different. Very different. That's effected by a variety of factors.

I encourage you to get a hold of Rinker's book. Or Hatcher's writings on this subject.

These two articles may be of some help to you.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...istols-part-1/

https://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_recoil_table.htm

tipoc
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Old June 10, 2018, 07:37 PM   #45
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I would avoid the articles on this by Brad Miller. The articles are self contradictory and often based on false premises. To cite just one example is the idea that a good way to measure recoil is to judge how far a gun moves when clamped in a Ransom rest. That really tells you not much for the purposes of this discussion.
The Ransom Rest (RR) is a dumb machine. Its movement is based on force that is applied to it. More force = more movement. That author compared RR movement to the mathematical model and it compares favorably. http://www.shootingtimes.com/ballist...andgun-recoil/

I see no contradictions or false premises. The Ransom Rest results in the article on power factor and bullet weight (Figure 3) are compared to the mathematically calculated recoil force (Figure 4) and they look the same. That suggests the RR's movement is a useful tool for measuring relative recoil force.
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Old June 10, 2018, 07:56 PM   #46
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In the article I linked to by Zimmerman they use the movement of a laser to account for recoil based on the jump of the muzzle during firing. But they also explain that it is not exactly scientific and explains why. Here they are a bit more careful and honest than Miller. Zimmerman also has the advantage in knowing that he is only giving a rough explanation which can help some folks understand the difference but is only that.

Miller's experiment has no actual meaning beyond what it is. It shows how much a Ransom rest jumps.

The best way to learn is to go and shoot.

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Old June 10, 2018, 09:29 PM   #47
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In the Zimmerman article the gun was hand-held. This is not an objective measure of gun movement. It is subjective and they describe it as “with no particular effort to control the recoil”. The only way it would be valid is if they MEASURED the resistance the shooter applied to the gun hand/arm/shoulder etc for every shot. He didn’t. I don’t know how that would even be possible. With all due respect to Zimmerman, the results must be taken with a grain of salt because he has not accounted for the biggest source of variation that can contribute to gun/dot movement - how much resistance is applied to the hand-held gun.

A difference shooter could get different, contradictory results. Hence the problem with hand-held shooting.

The Ransom Rest is a mechanical device that is objective, not subjective like a hand-held gun. The RR offers the same resistance for every shot. Its movement can be measured. Its movement can be statistically compared via correlation to velocity, which the author did in the “how to measure relative recoil” article. Its data can be compared to the mathematical model for recoil. The Author did that and discussed the meaning of the results. The actual movement data was shown as were the statistics. How much more honest can you get????
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Old June 11, 2018, 04:52 PM   #48
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In the Zimmerman article the gun was hand-held. This is not an objective measure of gun movement.
Sure and that's the point, Zimmerman explains that and the limitations of it. This is the value of Zimmerman's report.

Miller's test is certainly objective or objective-ish. But then so are EPA ratings of mile per gallon for a motor vehicle. The EPA rests the driving wheels on a piece of test equipment indoors in a lab and measures the speed of the vehicle and how much gas is consumed per mile of travel on an indoor apparatus. The test results are valid only and just for that, average MPG on a piece of lab equipment on an indoor track. Those tests do not transfer to actual driving conditions and actual average MPG. They can't.

The tests by Miller show you only what they show you. How much movement there is in a Ransom rest when a gun is fired with x bullets and x loads. Based on his testing which may or may not be more or less rigid. That's all they show. Only he does not explain that simply. It is as vague as a mathematical formula, more so.

We don't all have Ransom rests. We do have handguns. We know from experience that the felt recoil from a Walther PPK in 380acp is stouter than the felt recoil from a Sig P238 in 380acp with the same loads and weight bullets. Even though the formulas show us that mechanical recoil is less in the heavier Walther. This is due to the fixed barrel of the Walther vs. the tilt barrel of the Sig P238...the construction of the pistol.

So go shoot and learn this for yourself. Shoot a M1917 in 45acp and a 1911 in 45acp side by side and feel the difference.

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Old June 13, 2018, 12:16 PM   #49
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It's simple, it DEPENDs on the shooter perception!

my wife cannot shoot a Woodsman using standard velocity .22 LR ammo.

Both daughter love it.

youngest has a LCP, eldest has 2" Charter arms.

Pick a comfortable feeling sidearm and practice with lowest velocity ammo until itis second nature.
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