Win 231 in 44 mag from Lee molds?

[Dead-Nuts-Zero]

Anyone shooting Win 231 using Lee Cast 310 gr (somewhat like Keith style bullet) in 44 mag?

I've looked for days for a source of Win 231 in 44 mag, I found very little printed data. THEN I came upon this thread & it seems to be my best source at this point. I know it's an old thread but maybe someone can assist me.

I'm new at casting 44 mag & a rookie mistake was purchasing Lee molds (because only brand I could find at the time) assuming there would be lots of load data. However, I'm unsure how to seat the Lee cast bullets as I can't find the same bullet profile in my assorted manuals.

Looking for help determining seat depth to avoid max pressures in the following bullets which I powder coated.

Lee MOLD DC TL430-240SWC SKU 90299

Lee MOLD DC C 430-310-RF SKU 90858

[Aguila Blanca]

This post was originally added to the end of a two-year old discussion about a different bullet and bullet weight. I split it off because it's an unrelated question.

[DukeConnor]

I checked my lynan manual. it has the lee bullet listed but no data for 231.
the only 44 mag data is for a 210 gr bullet with a starting load of 9.3 grains.

[FrankenMauser]

It's not a good powder choice for the bullet and cartridge combination.
Low case fill may result in position sensitivity.

But if you want to play with fire...

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data not covered by currently published sources of tested data for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.
Lee 310 WFN
1.610" COAL
8.7 gr W231
29,000 psi
974 fps (7" bbl)

9.7 gr W231
35,000 psi
1035 fps (7" bbl)

I tried a few increments between those charges, about 10 years ago. Performance was sub-par. I never loaded any again. (I actually never finished the box... )
Titegroup, though offering even lower case fill, worked better for me. (Max of 8.7 gr)

[big al hunter]

The Lee 310 RF has 2 crimp grooves. They are the grooves closest to the front of the bullet. Use the groove that allows the cartridge to chamber in your gun. I don't have my manuals with me at the moment, but Google hodgdon load data. They sell the Winchester powder and have a load for 300 and 325 grain cast bullets with data for win 231. I would start with data for the 325 grain and see how it goes. Work it up from lowest load on the site.

[FrankenMauser]

With recommended "trim to" length brass, the two crimp grooves should result in COAL of:
1.610" and 1.690".

With W231, the rear crimp groove just makes the case fill issue even worse.

[zxcvbob]

What kind of loads are you looking for? "Real magnums", or something pleasant to shoot? (with that powder choice, I'm serious)

Look for .44 Special load data. There should be some of that data available, especially for the 240 grain bullet, and load towards the upper end of the range. IIRC, the overall length spec for .44 Special is the same or even slightly longer than .44 Magnum -- that might even be why the bullet has 2 crimp grooves.

231 is supposed to be a good powder for .45 Colt, and that's an even larger case than .44 Mag, so all that empty space should not be a problem as long as you're careful not to double-charge.

[Dead-Nuts-Zero]

zxcvbob -

I'm looking for a mild comfortable clean shooting load for fun and eventually find a load for whitetail deer.
I have 3 guns in 44 mag & decided I wanted to try casting & powder coating the 44 mag for my
Ruger Black Hawk 7.5"
Marlin 336
Ruger 44 Mag Carbine
Reason for Win 231 is I have lots of it, I shoot it in 380, 38's, & 9mm. I'm also looking at loading 231 in cast powder coated 40/10mm in addition to the 44 mag.
Overall, I really like Win 231 in smaller pistol & want to expand into larger calibers for the fun & enjoyment of casting & reloading. If WIn 231 won't cut it I will seek another powder.

Thanks to everyone for the comments and thanks to Aguila Blanca for splitting my original post into a new thread.

[zxcvbob]

Herco is a decent powder for magnum revolver cartridges with cast bullets. 2400 is even better. The only Hodgdon or Winchester powder I've used in hotrod .45 Colt loads (I have a Blackhawk) was 296; I liked the 2400 better.

231 should get you some nice .44 Special loads (you can use .44 Magnum brass), and that's worth something. I don't think you'll get a decent rifle load out of it; especially for hunting. There's a reason you can't find any load data

[SHR970]

You are looking for a deer round: Let's look at your battery.
Ruger Black Hawk 7.5" : It will shoot and it can kill
Marlin 336 : Never saw one in 44 mag. 1894 yeah... got one. Will work but MicroGroove and lead work only in a well defined set of situations.
Ruger 44 Mag Carbine: one shot pony. It will not cycle so it is only good for the first shot... hope you get it right the first time.

[TX Nimrod]

Ruger Black Hawk 7.5” - is this a flat top or a Super Blackhawk or? With a slow heavy bullet you may have a challenge regulating the sights depending on model...or not.

Marlin 336 - I assume it is a 1960s-vintage like the one below, nice find. LOA and feeding might be issues but it should work. https://www.marlinowners.com/threads...or-not.327329/

Ruger .44 Mag Carbine - which one? Original auto with tube magazine? Newer version auto with detachable mag? Lever action version? Bolt action? Suitability varies with version, loa critical with all.

For deer a 310-grain cast bullet with the big meplat like the Lee at 1000 fps will kill well if put in the right place. It should be relatively pleasant to shoot, I know I enjoy shooting my BH with 280s @ 975 fps, but I use Universal.


.

[jetinteriorguy]

Take a look at Green Dot. You’ll be surprised.

[big al hunter]

Will work but MicroGroove and lead work only in a well defined set of situations.

I have heard that the microgroove barrels have issues with lead. I have to assume this is due to using soft alloys. I load cast 357 mag 148 gr SWC powder coated with Lyman #2 alloy. Plenty hard enough to get a good spin in a Marlin 1894 with the lightest and heaviest book charge for Alliant 2400.

[FrankenMauser]

The classic myth of Micro-Groove rifling and cast bullets being a bad combination comes primarily from idiots (or ignoramus) that used incorrectly sized bullets and unsuitable alloys.

It was also not helped by Marlin using the antiquated and often inadequate 1:38" twist rate for .44 Mag and .444 Marlin barrels. Low velocity doesn't work. And some bullet weights are too heavy to be stabilized without unsafe pressures.

[Dead-Nuts-Zero]

TX Nimrod

Super Black Hawk - Early 80's Stainless, Mag-Na-Ported & action job, I load Speer 240 gr. jhp over 2400, it shoots fantastic & have 5 deer kills (all dead right there). Looking for a load more pleasant & economical to plink at steel plates (powder coated with maybe win 231).

Marlin 336 44 mag - SN AC78*** I purchased used in the early 70's (unknown mfg date), It has Micro-groove bbl and kicks like a mule, I put ghost ring sights on it, it shoots the above 240 gr over 2400 fairly well. Looking for a more comfortable shooting load, want to try cast powder coated with Win 231.

Ruger Standard 44 Carbine tube feed 3rd year production (1963) in very good condition. Have only fired 4 rounds the day I purchased it about 4 years ago, in storage since. Want to get it out & find a load that functions well & enjoyable to shoot.

If I can't make Win 231 work in the above guns, I will move on to other powders that I have.
My main goal is using my new found hobby of casting & powder coating bullets in search of comfortable clean shooting fun loads.

Recently purchased S&W model 610 6.5". I want to try cast pc with Win 231 in both 40 & 10mm. I have loaded 40's with Unique for years but not my favorite powder.

Thanks to all for your comments.

[noylj]

Look for HP38 data--they are the exact same powders.
For .44 Rem Mag, I use Unique for low power load and 2400 for high power loads.

[big al hunter]

I load the Lee TL 240 SWC powder coated in 44 mag using 2400 and Tight group. I loaded test loads from min to max from the Hodgdon website to test. No pressure signs in any of the loads. The last groove in the bullet is for the crimp. I have found that the lead bullet data in most books is a little lighter than for copper jacketed. And the manuals that give pressure data show well under max for most powders. My best guess is to prevent leading when using traditional lube. If you don't already have a copy, I recommend the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. It has a fair amount of data for many cartridges.

[Unclenick]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data not covered by currently published sources of tested data for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.

Dead-Nuts-Zero,

If you go to Hodgdon's site and select 44 Magnum and then select 231, you get a whole list of bullets that include several Beartooth Bullets, which are hardcast LBT designs, for the most part. All of them are seated long for a Ruger-length cylinder at 1.730" (I get 1.725" from the bullet dimension information in a 1.275" trim-length case). In 325-grains (a bullet they have incorrectly labeled LFN that is actually a WLN; BTB doesn't make the LFN profile in 325 grains), the bullet is 0.878" long and with its crimp groove being flush with the case mouth will be seated 0.428" into the case.

QuickLOAD shows your Lee 310-grain RF to be just 0.756" long (check that) or 0.122" shorter than the Wide Long Nose BTB product. If that's correct, loading the cartridge to the 1.610" SAAMI length will give you a shorter 0.421" seating depth. That means all the Hodgdon loads for the 325-grain BTB design will produce less pressure with your 310-grain bullet and will be safe to use with it, plus ive an added safety margin. Hodgdon's load range is 9.0-10.3 grains of 231, for velocities of 1025 to 1135 fps from an 8.275" test barrel with no barrel/cylinder vent. But if the bullet length isn't right for the Lee, then look at where it is seated to 0.428 and see if it fits in your guns.

QuickLOAD thinks the pressures are higher than Hodgdon measured, but that's probably a reflection of lot differences, I wouldn't be uncomfortable working up in that Hodgdon range.

For the 240-grain bullet, Hodgdon just shows a generic LSWC loaded with anywhere from 5.0-grains to 11-grains of 231. The wide range is to cover true target loads at the bottom end. The Lee TL design isn't long, so you can probably plug that load range in OK.

[hdbiker]

Win 231 much to fast burring for heavy .44 mag loads hdbiker

[Unclenick]

Heavy loads aren't the topic. The OP is asking for moderate loads (see post #8). The loads from Hodgdon will still kill whitetails for him just fine, as he will still be well above 357 Mag energies.

[44 AMP]

With recommended "trim to" length brass, the two crimp grooves should result in COAL of:
1.610" and 1.690".

1.610" is the listed max loaded length of the .44Mag. That length should work in all guns.

1.690" may not. IF it fits in your revolver's cylinder, fine. Marlins are notorious for not liking overlong loads, and too long will jam the rifle trying to feed from the tube to the chamber. Even 336s.

If your Ruger .44 carbine is the semi auto one, cast bullets (any size) are a bad idea. Lead and bullet lube can clog the gas system. Stick with jacketed bullets in those rifles. Additionally, the early Ruger carbines had a reputation for not shooting anything but 240gr bullets accurately.

W231 is a powder for "popper" loads in .44Mag. which is fine, since that's what you're looking for. HOWEVER, pay CAREFUL attention to the powder charge, with the amount of 231 used, a double charge will fit in the .44 case (and with some room to spare, so its not obvious, and you need to LOOK carefully at every case charged. A double charge of 231 WILL damage (and usually explode) the gun!!!

[Dead-Nuts-Zero]

Thanks Unclenick
I learned a lot from your reply (what is a Bear Tooth & LBT design etc.) & appreciate the sources you listed & your thoughts on applying data to my chosen bullets. I will begin with my Ruger revolver and if all goes well will attempt loading for my rifles.

QuickLOAD shows your Lee 310-grain RF to be just 0.756" long (check that)

My Lee 310 gr. with powder coat are .824" & the Lee 240 gr. powder coated are .740".



44 AMP

If your Ruger .44 carbine is the semi auto one, cast bullets (any size) are a bad idea. Lead and bullet lube can clog the gas system. Stick with jacketed bullets in those rifles.

Yes, it's the semi-auto carbine. I've had other comments & also read that this is not a desirable candidate for lead, however I'm powder coating my bullets, thinking this should avoid the cast lead/lube concerns. If anyone has tried powder coated bullets in the Ruger carbine, would appreciate hearing about your results.



big al hunter

If you don't already have a copy, I recommend the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. It has a fair amount of data for many cartridges.

Yes, I have it, I have referred to it several times when I first began melting & casting a year or two ago & still use it. Was surprised to see Lee cast bullets mentioned on occasion in this book. And many thanks for your comments throughout this thread.


Thanks to ALL who have commented. With my limited casting experience, it's great having TFL folks to assist me!
Unfortunately, I don't think I will have time to work up a load & get a chance to test fire until the end of the month. If anyone has any additional comments, I look forward to your thoughts.

[44 AMP]

44 AMP
Quote:
If your Ruger .44 carbine is the semi auto one, cast bullets (any size) are a bad idea. Lead and bullet lube can clog the gas system. Stick with jacketed bullets in those rifles.
Yes, it's the semi-auto carbine. I've had other comments & also read that this is not a desirable candidate for lead, however I'm powder coating my bullets, thinking this should avoid the cast lead/lube concerns. If anyone has tried powder coated bullets in the Ruger carbine, would appreciate hearing about your results.

Powder coated bullets MAY avoid the issue with the gas system, I don't know. But there are a couple other points you need to consider.

First is round length and bullet profile. Second is the load level (pressure curve).

The Ruger carbine, like most other gas operated rifles is built to run a specific and fairly narrow range of ammo. AND, that is full power factory jacketed 240gr stuff.

The 310gr bullets you want to use simply may not feed through the mechanism. And, 231 powder may not operate the action the way it is meant to run.

It's a matter of force/time, not just force. Consider this, a heavy steel door, such as on a safe. PUSH the door, it swings closed smoothly. SLAP the door, and even if the amount of force is the same, the result will not be.

Of course, its a matter of degree, and the devil is in the details, but generally speaking, a fast powder like 231 is more slap than push.

[Unclenick]

D-N-Z,

Thanks. I thought the QL length for the Lee was too short to be likely. It's an error on their part.

[SHR970]

The Ruger carbine, like most other gas operated rifles is built to run a specific and fairly narrow range of ammo. AND, that is full power factory jacketed 240gr stuff.

and

It's a matter of force/time, not just force.

Spot on... the Ruger DeerStalker Semi Autos are loosely based off of the M1 Carbine. If you do not use the correct powders for pressure curve they do not cycle properly. Older reloading manuals have references to this. W231 does not fit the bill nor do any other powders in this burn speed category. 2400, H2447, W296/H110, AA#9 are appropriate speeds to cycle the action. Even then they are intended to run on the hotter side of things for reliable cycling.

Edit to add: If need be I will utilize Fair Use Doctrine with full attribution to back up my statement.