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Old July 29, 2020, 03:14 PM   #76
Obambulate
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There is the question of blocking public roads itself. When does "free speech" become deprivation of rights, kidnapping, even manslaughter? What if ambulances are blocked and a patient dies?
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Old July 29, 2020, 08:37 PM   #77
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Being on the sidewalk/corners protesting is fine. My understanding is if you want to march in the streets (and thereby block traffic) you need a permit. Same as a parade
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Old July 29, 2020, 10:01 PM   #78
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Being on the sidewalk/corners protesting is fine. My understanding is if you want to march in the streets (and thereby block traffic) you need a permit. Same as a parade
...
There is the question of blocking public roads itself. When does "free speech" become deprivation of rights, kidnapping, even manslaughter? What if ambulances are blocked and a patient dies?
It's sort of a given that if we're discussing it in T&T as something we need to be aware of and train to deal with that it's something that's not legal.

Discussions about the specific reasons that something is illegal are more suited for the Legal and Civil Rights section of TFL. This subforum is specifically focused on how we should prepare and respond.
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Old July 30, 2020, 06:08 AM   #79
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I’d also note that these illegal road blockages have used all kinds of barriers and obstacles besides people - wheelbarrows, carts, other vehicles, etc. IIRC, in the reports of the Austin incident, the Austin PD noted they were delayed in getting vehicles to the scene by the protesters’ own vehicles.

So, also be aware that stomping on the gas might not be a working strategy, especially if protesters are creating limited visibility in your direction of travel.
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Old July 30, 2020, 11:21 AM   #80
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There is the question of blocking public roads itself. When does "free speech" become deprivation of rights, kidnapping, even manslaughter? What if ambulances are blocked and a patient dies?
Dalea pontificates in his most patronizing, condescending voice:
Well for those of you unaware of What's Going On Today there is hope.

I am working on an APP that you will be able to buy for your Smart Phone entitled "Which Laws Matter" (an initial marketing survey---I asked my wife---indicates this might not be the best name for it but that will be ironed out later).

You can read some details about it in post #16 of this thread:
https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...37#post6806137

So far a lack of computer/smart phone skills and an almost criminal ignorance of the law are slowing my progress of the project but if only I could get someone to show me how to set up a Go Fund Me page to raise thousands of dollars for the project (strangely enough if you don't know how to set up a Go Fund Me page people are skeptical that you could create a smart phone app) I feel certain I could devote all the time and energy to this project that it deserves.
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Old August 25, 2020, 09:38 AM   #81
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Looks like tear gas is one way out of this situation.

https://twitter.com/livesmattershow/...rc=twsrc%5Etfw
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Old August 25, 2020, 10:47 PM   #82
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Especially if you have a top hatch, someone to work it, gas masks and lots of gas grenades.

I can't see it being nearly as effective spraying out of a rolled-down window while trying to drive with the other hand.
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Old August 26, 2020, 09:17 AM   #83
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Its possible a large cannister of bear spray would provide a non lethal option to try.

Of course, a very real problem would be sticking your arm holding the bear spray out of your open window. Odds are good it would be taken away from you,and sprayed into your face,And your elbow may get broken.

Maybe a couple cannisters mounted behind your grille that could be activated from inside the buttoned up car?
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Old August 26, 2020, 09:47 AM   #84
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IIRC, bear spray comes out pretty much as a stream, not a fog, so without a means of directing (if not "aiming") it, I don't think it would be of much use.

Pepper sprays come in fog or stream patterns, or gel. The fog pattern units are only good at close range, and if you are down-wind of the attacker you're just as likely to incapacitate yourself as the assailant. Stream has a longer range but a much narrower pattern, and is still somewhat susceptible to wind.
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Old August 27, 2020, 03:31 PM   #85
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What’s the cook off time on a CS/CN/Pepper gas grenade? Seems like an ideal situation to have it fed back to you?
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Old August 27, 2020, 11:13 PM   #86
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In many videos, it seems that many of the less-peaceful peaceful protesters come armed with bear spray or similar. I'd expect that if your window gets cracked, you might have to deal with a chemical irritant. "Just Punching It" might put you into a street lamp.

Best to leave gaps at lights and be ready to turn to avoid hostile foot traffic before you get stopped.

If you are stopped, every situation will be different. Lot's to consider here.
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Old August 28, 2020, 01:31 PM   #87
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I have found staying home works excedingly well! Cosco insists on masks, and temp. check, also Just, Traders, and Walmart. Picked up a 20 lb Sack of basmatie rice a month ago at Cosco. Good for at least 2 years. We switched years ago from Cows milk to Soy Milk. Buy that two boxes of twelve at a time, it does not require refrigerating. Sits away in the living room. Not quite vegans, but cut back a lot on meat products.
Will be glad when dining in at Restaurants starts up again!
Leave good vehicle spacing when out and about, we are just an old pair old pair of Grandparents, don't go out late anymore. Never go out without my Glock 19. Yes I shoot it well, 147g Federal HST Hollow Points is my flavor of the month. Double-tap per application seems like the way to go (at least) Pointed pistols at people on occasion, 1 or 2 lbs of pressure is all I have put onto the trigger. As I carry a pair of stents on a heart artery, if I do get into use of force incident, my next new friends will be paramedics!
Off to heart ward. "I did not reload Officers, there is one in the breach, but don't lose it!"
Have a couple more, just in case.
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Old August 28, 2020, 03:04 PM   #88
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> how do I prove the intent

Dashcam! At the very least, one with a second, rear-facing camera. There are ones under $300 that have four cameras.

Video freakin' RULES in the courtroom. It's also pretty good when dealing with insurance companies.

It could be the cheapest $300 you ever spent.
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Old August 29, 2020, 09:16 AM   #89
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HiBC,

The precedence has been set from Reginald Denny to current affairs. Knowledge is power.

These mobs have maimed and killed multiples of people. I can easily articulate the justification for the use of deadly force. There are a multitude of crimes these people are committing.
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Old August 29, 2020, 02:30 PM   #90
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There's a case playing out right now.

An armed man was chased, apparently with the intent to disarm him. When cornered, he shot and killed one of the persons chasing him. He was chased again after that incident, struck by one of the persons chasing him. He fell down at one point and was kicked, then struck again with an object and the person who struck him may have grabbed at his gun--he fired from the ground, killing the person who struck him. Another man rushed at him with a pistol in his hand. He fired again from the ground striking the pistol-wielding man in the arm.

Sounds like pretty straightforward self-defense, right?

He's currently in jail, charged with first degree murder and facing a number of other charges as well.

Anyone who tries to convince you that it will be easy to talk your way out of shooting someone in a riot situation isn't keeping up with the news, and you aren't doing yourself any favors if you believe what they tell you and act on it.
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Old August 29, 2020, 02:34 PM   #91
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^^^^^^^^^^^^ = Don’t Do Stupid Stuff.
Better yet, avoid attending functions for which you failed to received an engraved invitation.
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Old August 29, 2020, 02:43 PM   #92
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HiBC,

The precedence has been set from Reginald Denny to current affairs. Knowledge is power.

These mobs have maimed and killed multiples of people. I can easily articulate the justification for the use of deadly force. There are a multitude of crimes these people are committing.
That won't do you much good right now. Your attackers will be portrayed as saints (even if they are actually convicted rapists, drug dealers, and wife-beaters) and you will be cast as a neo-Nazi terrorist and murderer.

That is exactly what's playing out in Wisconsin right now, except I'm not sure about the drug dealer; it might have been some other felonies. That kid (who may or may not be totally innocent) will never get a fair trial, he just has to pray that at least one juror sees through the circus and he gets a mistrial.
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Old August 29, 2020, 02:58 PM   #93
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Without some kind of evidence it would be tough to prove the justification to the court. Your public image will probably suffer no matter how justified you were because of the smearing campaign of the mob. But I agree with whoever said the dashcam - those things are neat. You can just set it to run and at the press of a button it will save the last 5 minutes (or whatever you set it to) that just occurred, so you can press that button after the situation happened.

Bear spray used on people might be illegal. I think that's what my bottle says in fine print on the back. People spray perhaps?

One thing that might not occur to me in the heat of the moment is giving myself license to break normal traffic rules to avoid the mob or back up / turn around. For example, am I really stuck in my lane if I can just do a 3 point turn to get out of dodge?
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Old August 29, 2020, 03:16 PM   #94
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For example, am I really stuck in my lane if I can just do a 3 point turn to get out of dodge?
Or drive over a curb, or on the grass, or having to back up for a block or two, or drive the wrong way on a street.

Tickets are a pain, but they're much less of a pain than even the best case consequences of what we're discussing.
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Old August 29, 2020, 03:17 PM   #95
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"No good answer" hypothetical road block

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa View Post
There's a case playing out right now.

An armed man was chased, apparently with the intent to disarm him. When cornered, he shot and killed one of the persons chasing him. He was chased again after that incident, struck by one of the persons chasing him. He fell down at one point and was kicked, then struck again with an object and the person who struck him may have grabbed at his gun--he fired from the ground, killing the person who struck him. Another man rushed at him with a pistol in his hand. He fired again from the ground striking the pistol-wielding man in the arm.

Sounds like pretty straightforward self-defense, right?

He's currently in jail, charged with first degree murder and facing a number of other charges as well.

Anyone who tries to convince you that it will be easy to talk your way out of shooting someone in a riot situation isn't keeping up with the news, and you aren't doing yourself any favors if you believe what they tell you and act on it.

While he may be charged as an adult, being a 17 year old in the possession of a rifle that was driven across state lines and not appearing to be under any supervision certainly doesn’t help his case.


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Old August 30, 2020, 01:38 PM   #96
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Time and the courts will hopefully find justice .
If what we know about the case of the young man in Kenosha came via the news,we really don't know anything.

17 year olds can let their idealism overwhelm wisdom. He may have had the honorable intent to help protect property.

The Heroes Journey.

Its probably a really bad idea to arm up and drive to a riot.

I don't know what set the young man and the crowd off,but did see what happened with Rand Paul. Rand Paul feared for his life,and except for a couple of police officers,Rand Paul may have suffered great violence.

If Rand Paul felt that way,the 17 year old kid may have,also.

When you get surrounded by a pack of those hyenas,things likely will go violent.

We might have better sense than to drive to a riot with the plan to open carry a long gun,but some folks peacefully demonstrate open carry of a long gun.

They are usually within their rights.

Whether the young man was 100% lawfully carrying,or not,odds are good there was no reason to be violent with him,including trying to disarm him.

If I am carrying,I won't let an angry mob disarm me. (Once again,these "protests" have taken place in Denver and farther north to my town. I did not go near any of it. Thats Plan "A". No need to discuss plan "B")

I don't know enough to say if the young man was justified shooting.

But I do believe there are some violent people in those mobs who justify shooting.

If a skateboard is used for an assault,its a deadly weapon. I'm not a lawyer,but my sense of justice says "What SHOULD be" is if a guy assaults with a skateboard....he should not expect his life to matter.

As the Zimmerman/Martin case showed us, being stupid and walking toward trouble with a gun just might find you more trouble than you can handle,but being stupid does not necessarily cancel your right to defend yourself,and if your attacker is bashing your head,with the sidewalk or a skateboard,shooting him may be justified.


I have not made my mind up on this one. Time will tell

Last edited by HiBC; August 31, 2020 at 01:27 AM.
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Old August 30, 2020, 02:34 PM   #97
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...,these "protests" have taken place in Denver and farther north to my town. I did not go near any of it. Thats Plan "A".
Yup.
Quote:
I don't know enough to say if the young man was justified shooting.
There are some things that will work in his favor.

1. He was discriminating with his fire. He shot no one who was not directly targeting him in one way or another. It may be that the courts will find that he didn't have sufficient justification for one or more of the injuries/deaths that resulted, but at least he didn't hit any bystanders.

2. He exercised restraint. When there was clearly no threat he held his fire and did not even threaten those around him by pointing his weapon at them.

3. He was clearly trying to get away from any threats, shooting only when he was unable to retreat.

Will it be enough? It's impossible to say at this point, but it's safe to say that any legal solution for the problem posed by the OP will incorporate these three principles.
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Old August 30, 2020, 06:23 PM   #98
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What I find unbelievable in that whole mess is that after he had shot someone, unarmed people continued to try to engage him.

I really cannot wrap my head around that. Guy shoots someone and then tries to flee, and I'm grabbing my skateboard and trying to hit him with it? All I can come up with is drugs.
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Old August 30, 2020, 06:53 PM   #99
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What I find unbelievable in that whole mess is that after he had shot someone, unarmed people continued to try to engage him.

I really cannot wrap my head around that. Guy shoots someone and then tries to flee, and I'm grabbing my skateboard and trying to hit him with it? All I can come up with is drugs.

This is why I’m also very skeptical when people talk as if presenting a firearm will yield compliance, especially against a mob. Against a rational individual, sure. But people that might not be rational to begin with and that have the mental comfort of numbers? I make no assumptions when it comes to that.


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Old August 30, 2020, 10:42 PM   #100
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really cannot wrap my head around that. Guy shoots someone and then tries to flee, and I'm grabbing my skateboard and trying to hit him with it? All I can come up with is drugs.
The individual in question had a criminal history of dug offenses ...... js .....
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