The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old July 14, 2020, 05:48 PM   #26
TBM900
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 2, 2015
Posts: 678
Quote:
Originally Posted by FireForged View Post
I believe in the science of ballistics
Which “science” is that?
__________________
Playboy billionaire
Retired Colonial Marine
1st to walk on the moon without a spacesuit
TBM900 is offline  
Old July 14, 2020, 06:20 PM   #27
ammo.crafter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 25, 2006
Location: The Keystone State
Posts: 1,726
SD

2X for Lucky Gunner
__________________
"The Constitution is not an instrument for government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government, lest it come to dominate our lives and interests."
Patrick Henry, American Patriot
ammo.crafter is offline  
Old July 14, 2020, 06:32 PM   #28
Shadow9mm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2012
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 359
Bullets work in 1 of 3 ways. Skeletal, Blood, Neurological. You can break bone, pelvic girdle for example, and disable. You can hit spine or brain and disable. Blood is more complicated. It can take a significant amount of time to bleed out. Unless you hit heart or lungs either stopping blood flow, or uptake of oxygen (blood filling lungs) blood is not a great option.

My understanding is the FBI standards were created to ensure a bullet could reach the vital areas through clothing, or an awkward angle. They are also designed so that they do not over penetrate and hurt someone behind them. depending on your use this may or may not be what you need.

I think if you a dealing with a major manufacturer, all of their premium SD ammo will meet FBI standards and be adequate. I also think most of their SD ammo, and hunting ammo will as well. All in all it basically comes down to personal preference.

As far as how I choose. I hit up the big companies first. Federal, remington, speer, Winchester, hornady. Most of the larger manufacturers make rounds for law enforcement agencies. This has 3 benefits, more R&D to stay ahead of the other companies, meaning better bullets over all. That they meet FBI standards, also good. And sometimes lower prices depending on where you can find them due to scale of manufacturing. I find a round and then look for ammo tests on youtube. I really like speer gold dots, I hate the casing they use. I generally go with Federal HST. they meet FBI standards and I got some 50rnd boxes for $28 a while back and got a bunch. I feel like Winchester PDX1 is good but too expensive. I was never into the golden saber, I heard about failures to expand. Hornady critical defenese is an interesting round. I feel like Hornady really favors expansion over penetration. It is the ONLY round i would carry in 32 or 380 as both tend to under penetrate in hollow point ammunition. In 9mm or larger I would go with HP.

All in all it is more about getting the rounds where they need to go than the bullet itself. There are a LOT of good bullets, its mostly personal preference.
__________________
I don't believe in "range fodder" that is why I reload.

Last edited by Shadow9mm; July 14, 2020 at 06:50 PM.
Shadow9mm is offline  
Old July 14, 2020, 06:41 PM   #29
ghbucky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2020
Posts: 589
Thanks all.

I appreciate the insight into the through process.
ghbucky is offline  
Old July 15, 2020, 12:15 AM   #30
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 23,263
Quote:
The final paragraph is very informative:
Yup. If you're trying to assess damage from ballistics gel, you're going to be led astray. But if you want to know about penetration/expansion/retained weight, it will give you solid answers assuming that the gel is properly made & calibrated.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old July 15, 2020, 08:51 AM   #31
HiBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 6,915
I SHOULD probably take this topic more seriously.
But n fact,....I look at what the favorites are here on TFL

I look at Lucky Gunner.

I have an idea what bullet weight I want. I lean away from the lightest bullet weights. However,per Wilson,I might go 185 gr 45 ACP if I had a short bbl 1911.

All that in my head,I go to my LGS and see what is on the shelf. Almost never is my supposed first choice there. Now what?

Sometimes I go to another LGS.

But frankly,I don't know that there IS a "Best" . One day,I might need penetration,the next expansion.

I buy at least two boxes of something I recognise from the "good list"

One box is for a reliability/sight check.

IMO,any name brand 124 gr 9mm jhp that my gun will shoot will probably do just fine.If it does not,I don't think a different "magic bullet / load" would make the difference.

And any advantage for combat on Tuesday might well be a disadvantage for combat on Thursday.

First criteria is flawless function. Rem,Win,Fed,Horn,etc IMO,will all do after function
HiBC is offline  
Old July 15, 2020, 08:55 AM   #32
ghbucky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2020
Posts: 589
HiBC,

You just perfectly described what I do. I started this thread because I wondered if there was a better way to go about it.
ghbucky is offline  
Old July 15, 2020, 09:07 AM   #33
Skippy
Member
 
Join Date: March 3, 2010
Posts: 51
I don't think the bad guy is going to care much what he is shot with.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
Skippy is offline  
Old July 15, 2020, 11:09 AM   #34
Mike38
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2009
Location: North Central Illinois
Posts: 2,400
I don't do a lot of research into self defense ammo. Any decent looking hollow point, that doesn't cost $2 per round is good enough for me. Will a $2 per round bullet do better than a $0.50 bullet? Maybe, maybe not. Tests can be found on the internet that show bullets failing to do what they claim, on every brand out there. Shot placement, and keeping the trigger moving until the threat is neutralized seems more important to me.

I used to carry a S&W J frame .38Spcl. I bought a box of 50 'old school' semi jacketed hollow points that was on sale and called it good. Shot 5 rounds to check point of impact, yep, good to go. I now carry a Kel-Tec P32. Saw some reviews that warn about the dreaded .32 acp rim lock, so I decided to use ball ammo. No rim lock, and a bit better penetration. Yep, I'm good.

If the time arrives that I am forced to remove my carry pistol from concealment (I pray I never have to) I don't plan to stand and fight. I plan to use it only long enough to get me the hell away from the trouble. Yes, I plan to flee. As far as I'm concerned, my $0.20 per round ball ammo will do just as good at letting me flee as $2.00 per round stuff will.
Mike38 is offline  
Old July 15, 2020, 12:59 PM   #35
CDW4ME
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 18, 2009
Posts: 1,193
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBM900 View Post
In the real world... 12” isn’t enough
After poorly placed shots, the most common “failure“ I’ve noted over the decades...
Poor penetration

I said "at least" 12''


The Federal link I included in my post.

Lets compare two popular heavy bullet options in 9mm & 40 Gold Dot and HST:

Heavy Clothing:
9mm 147 Gold Dot - 14.9'' / .57
9mm 147 HST - 12.5'' / .69
40 S&W 180 Gold Dot - 13.2'' / .70
40 S&W 180 HST - 12.5'' / .80

Steel:
9mm 147 Gold Dot - 19.4'' / .42
9mm 147 HST - 17.5'' / .43
40 S&W 180 Gold Dot - 19.6'' / .50
40 S&W 180 HST - 11'' / .45

Auto glass:
9mm 147 Gold Dot - 12.9'' / .56
9mm 147 HST - 11'' / .68
40 S&W 180 Gold Dot - 12.7'' / .61
40 S&W 180 HST - 14'' / .62

180 gr. Gold Dots (in my Glock 23 & 35 ) penetrate at least 12'' through various barriers and expand, tested by the manufacturer.

No way I'm carrying FMJ, as long as I have HP that performs like that.
__________________
Strive to carry the handgun you would want anywhere, everywhere; forget that good area bullcrap.
"Wouldn't want to / Nobody volunteer to" get shot by _____ is not indicative of quickly incapacitating.
CDW4ME is offline  
Old July 24, 2020, 09:17 AM   #36
BondoBob
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 3, 2020
Posts: 148
I just keep it simple. Critical Duty in 357 (because it penetrates better than critical defense which expands too much in 357, IMO) and Critical Defense in all other calibers. I also used the Lucky Gunner tests to inform my choices.
BondoBob is offline  
Old July 24, 2020, 08:14 PM   #37
TBM900
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 2, 2015
Posts: 678
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDW4ME View Post
I said "at least" 12''
And I said... 12" isn't enough

A consistent 16" is the sweet spot

Quote:
Lets compare two popular heavy bullet options in 9mm & 40 Gold Dot and HST:

Heavy Clothing:
9mm 147 Gold Dot - 14.9'' / .57
9mm 147 HST - 12.5'' / .69
40 S&W 180 Gold Dot - 13.2'' / .70
40 S&W 180 HST - 12.5'' / .80
Not a single one of those averages 16"
But by all means, carry whatever makes you feel warm and fuzzy
__________________
Playboy billionaire
Retired Colonial Marine
1st to walk on the moon without a spacesuit
TBM900 is offline  
Old July 26, 2020, 09:49 AM   #38
jman841
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 18, 2009
Posts: 708
I really like the "Meat Target" test that Paul Harrell does in his tests on YouTube.

I believe it's a much more realistic target than Ballistics Gel.

I also disagree that FMJ is a better option over JHP simply because of penetration. If you believe this to be the case, check out some of the videos from Paul Harrell showing the damage to the inner "orange tissue" and the exit wounds on the rear set of ribs. He does an excellent job with these presentations.

Also, this is an excellent video from the bullet developers at Federal discussing Gel Tests.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6kUvi72s0Y

While placement is key, let's not fool ourselves into thinking modern bullet design is simply a gimmick. While some of them may be, the primary bullets from the major manufacturers seem to be well tested and optimized for their intended purpose.
jman841 is offline  
Old July 26, 2020, 06:16 PM   #39
Mike38
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2009
Location: North Central Illinois
Posts: 2,400
Quote:
They are also designed so that they do not over penetrate and hurt someone behind them.
Question. According to the FBI, bullets that expand and penetrate between 12″ and 18″ of gelatin are generally considered acceptable. Ok, so if a bad guy is shot with a bullet that will penetrate 18", and the bullet does not hit bone, only soft tissue and soft organs, the bullet will pass completely through the bad guy, and probably still have enough energy to kill the person standing behind the bad guy, say, an eight year old kid that the shooter didn't even see.

There is no 'magic bullet' that will only kill bad guys, and stop an inch after it exits the bad guys body. I know that. But 18" is one heck of a lot of penetration as far as I'm concerned. Isn't the average human body, front to back something like 10-12 inches? 18" is over penetration, way over.

But I'm just a lowly target shooter, and if a bullet has enough power to punch through a paper target, I'm good.
Mike38 is offline  
Old July 26, 2020, 09:30 PM   #40
jrothWA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 11, 2006
Posts: 2,406
Comider reviewing the late Steve Camp websight..

hipowers and handguns.

He has som articles on various calibeers and pratical test results.

Like can a 9mm take doen a deer, YED but.

For my use for 9mm, went with Hornady's XTP in 9mm ]124 gr XTP] for use in my 9's., and they are POS/POI.

Did like to carry the 140gr XTP in .38Spl, but they dropped that load, now looking at the 125gr, but like the Late Col. Cooper, prefer a medium weight bullet at medim velocity.


.357ag the 140gr XTP is again a POA/POI

,45ACP the 230GR XTP,.

the XTP seems to meet the FBI requirements.

Good Luck.
jrothWA is offline  
Old July 27, 2020, 12:29 PM   #41
CDW4ME
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 18, 2009
Posts: 1,193
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBM900 View Post
And I said... 12" isn't enough

A consistent 16" is the sweet spot


Not a single one of those averages 16"
But by all means, carry whatever makes you feel warm and fuzzy
16" average after barriers including steel and auto glass? Good luck.
http://winchesterle.com/SiteCollecti...tocol_2016.pdf

In Winchesters Ranger bonded line, no handgun round, not even 5.56 rifle does that.
223 Power Point - forget it.
__________________
Strive to carry the handgun you would want anywhere, everywhere; forget that good area bullcrap.
"Wouldn't want to / Nobody volunteer to" get shot by _____ is not indicative of quickly incapacitating.
CDW4ME is offline  
Old August 1, 2020, 05:20 PM   #42
Mannlicher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 8, 2001
Location: North Central Florida & Miami
Posts: 3,126
I am not convinced that there is a lot of real life difference between brands and styles. I load my own SD ammo, for the most part. I use a good quality JHP bullet, tend to like fast, and am careful with my proceedures.
__________________
Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan
Mannlicher is offline  
Old August 1, 2020, 08:06 PM   #43
ATN082268
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2013
Posts: 874
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mannlicher View Post
I am not convinced that there is a lot of real life difference between brands and styles. I load my own SD ammo, for the most part. I use a good quality JHP bullet, tend to like fast, and am careful with my proceedures.
If all bullets of a caliber are created equal performance wise, then you should choose the cheapest FMJ ammo or equivalent components for reloading.
ATN082268 is offline  
Old August 1, 2020, 09:10 PM   #44
Deja vu
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 14, 2010
Location: Border of Idaho & Montana
Posts: 2,553
I bought a few boxes of common hollow points and and shot them out of my EDC. The ones that I shot the best became my ammo I carry, I also reload ammo to as close to the same spec for practice but for self defense it’s factory ammo only.
__________________
Shot placement is everything! I would rather take a round of 50BMG to the foot than a 22short to the base of the skull.

all 26 of my guns are 45/70 govt, 357 mag, 22 or 12 ga... I believe in keeping it simple. Wish my wife did as well...
Deja vu is offline  
Old August 2, 2020, 08:09 AM   #45
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 2,877
Quote:
Over half a century of hunting
Four decades in law enforcement

Result:
Practice
Placement
Penetration

The above trumps caliber
The above trumps projectile
The above trumps expansion
The above trumps jello “tests”

(assuming we’re talking common service calibers)
That is the primary goal when carrying a gun. After that you can start to delve into what works 100% in you carry gun. Me personally I carry what has street cred and sometimes what I used to carry on duty, depending on the platform. I only carry full size pistols or magnum revolvers.
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement
U. S. Army Veteran
Armorer
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old August 2, 2020, 08:11 AM   #46
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 2,877
Quote:
If all bullets of a caliber are created equal performance wise, then you should choose the cheapest FMJ ammo or equivalent components for reloading.
But they are not. Bullet construction is critical to performance. Different bullets from different makers are constructed differently.
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement
U. S. Army Veteran
Armorer
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old August 2, 2020, 08:17 AM   #47
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 2,877
Quote:
I am not convinced that there is a lot of real life difference between brands and styles. I load my own SD ammo, for the most part. I use a good quality JHP bullet, tend to like fast, and am careful with my proceedures.
One example:

110 and 125 grain JHP's in 38 caliber;

Remington uses a thin scalloped jacket
Winchester and Federal use a thicker, shorter jacket.

This difference in bullet construction makes a huge difference in bullet performance, especially at magnum velocities.
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement
U. S. Army Veteran
Armorer
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old August 2, 2020, 09:08 AM   #48
cslinger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 14, 2002
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,840
As long as it’s been proven reliable I am generally ok with any half decent, mainstream hollow point loading. I prefer HST and Gold Dot but Ranger, PDX, Hydrashok, Golden Sabre, heck even WIN White Box JHP is fine. I am of the opinion that there is no single wunderbullet. Better tech absolutely? Perfect results nope. Hell 9BPLE is like 100 years old and has a ferocious real world rep. It’s hard on guns but it’ll work.

Now personally I prefer medium to heavy weight projectiles.
124-147 in 9mm (124 if I have my drothers)
165-180 in .40 (I lean 180 and that 155 Federal BP stuff works but is HOTTTT)
185-230 in .45 (I prefer 230 grain tried and true)

As far as +P or no generally I only seek out +P in 9mm, as old habits die hard. Yes tech has caught up but in my mind I still want that 9mm moving.

At the end of the day right this second. HST and Gold Dot scratch my itch as they meet my needs and have the real world rep to boot.

ABSOLUTELY NO RIP/DEATHSTOMPER/SHREDDER/DIEMFR etc. type ammo. It may or may not work but nope, nope, nope.
__________________
"Is there anyway I can write my local gun store off on my taxes as dependents?"

Last edited by cslinger; August 2, 2020 at 09:16 AM.
cslinger is offline  
Old August 2, 2020, 06:33 PM   #49
TBM900
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 2, 2015
Posts: 678
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDW4ME View Post
16" average after barriers including steel and auto glass?
Where did I say a word about either?
__________________
Playboy billionaire
Retired Colonial Marine
1st to walk on the moon without a spacesuit
TBM900 is offline  
Old August 3, 2020, 03:06 PM   #50
CDW4ME
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 18, 2009
Posts: 1,193
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBM900 View Post
Where did I say a word about either?
I must have read this as including barriers:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBM900
"In the real world... 12” isn’t enough
After poorly placed shots, the most common “failure“ I’ve noted over the decades...
Poor penetration

Christopher Wallace

All four shots pierced the vehicle door (penetration)
Three hit non-vital areas (placement)
But one of the four FMJs struck him in the hip
It traveled diagonally from right hip to left shoulder, his entire torso
Doubtful an expanding projectile would have pierced the door and made it through his heart and lung
I’ve personally run into multiple similar examples over the decades"
Anyway, so 16" in heavy clothed gel - here ya go ...
https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/wound_ba...omparison.aspx

357 Sig 125 Gold Dot - 18.3'' / .53
__________________
Strive to carry the handgun you would want anywhere, everywhere; forget that good area bullcrap.
"Wouldn't want to / Nobody volunteer to" get shot by _____ is not indicative of quickly incapacitating.
CDW4ME is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:03 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2020 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12952 seconds with 8 queries