The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old February 1, 2020, 03:34 AM   #76
Koda94
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2012
Location: Cascadia
Posts: 1,244
We had tradgedies "back in the day" as much as we do now...
__________________
lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2
Koda94 is offline  
Old February 2, 2020, 06:09 AM   #77
OhioGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 11, 2016
Posts: 1,089
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyzon View Post
I come down on the side of 0% chance of kids getting a gun 100% of the time, absolutely no exceptions ever.

Secondary is making it easy to grab a gun anytime for any reason.

I also think if an intruder has gained access to the interior of your home, you have already failed the most important test. Spend all effort to make that impossible.
This is a little far afield of the actual topic, but I have had a conversation about home defense with a number of people in the past in which I learned they had firearms in multiple locations, secured or otherwise, but no home security system or even basic door and window alarms. "Let 'em come" sounds pretty cool in movies but sheesh.

I've had only a few bumps in the night, usually gravity-related in some manner, often assisted by a cat. The fact that I heard a thump, but no alarm, was a good sign that it was not due to anyone intruding.
OhioGuy is offline  
Old February 10, 2020, 09:38 AM   #78
OldMarksman
Staff
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 3,915
Quote:
Kids or no kids, a bedside home defense weapon should be instantly available. Lock it up if you have to during the day, but when things go bump in the night, you are not doing your family any favors if you can’t react.
Why is it that so many people emphasize 'bedside" and "night"?
OldMarksman is offline  
Old February 10, 2020, 04:28 PM   #79
TBM900
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 2, 2015
Posts: 678
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mannlicher View Post
Kids or no kids, a bedside home defense weapon should be instantly available. Lock it up if you have to during the day, but when things go bump in the night, you are not doing your family any favors if you can’t react.
If you have to have it "instantly available".... then you've already FAILED.

Long before one considers a firearm, they need to plan and put in place the means to slow criminals down -AND- warn the occupants before entry is made. This notion of "instantly available" etc, is just an emotional crutch used by the unprepared. Criminals aren't going to fast rope through your windows guns blazing. It's just a silly notion.

The reality is that you aren't doing your family any favors if you do not have early warning and barriers to slow entry.
__________________
Playboy billionaire
Retired Colonial Marine
1st to walk on the moon without a spacesuit
TBM900 is offline  
Old February 10, 2020, 09:00 PM   #80
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 1,983
Quote:
If you have to have it "instantly available".... then you've already FAILED.

Long before one considers a firearm, they need to plan and put in place the means to slow criminals down -AND- warn the occupants before entry is made. This notion of "instantly available" etc, is just an emotional crutch used by the unprepared. Criminals aren't going to fast rope through your windows guns blazing. It's just a silly notion.

The reality is that you aren't doing your family any favors if you do not have early warning and barriers to slow entry.
I totally agree with the spirit of this post. Well said
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...
FireForged is offline  
Old February 10, 2020, 09:11 PM   #81
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 1,983
Quote:
Why is it that so many people emphasize 'bedside" and "night"?
because a very large segment of the gun community keeps a weapon "handy" during the dusk till dawn hours while keeping the weapon "less handy" during more active hours.

Those who subscribe to this routine, often keep the weapon in the nightstand.

The (night) tradition is said to have become most popular during the early pioneer days when one would spring from their bed in the middle of the night to address wolves and other threats to livestock. It is simply a mindset which has remain in the psyche of most Americans do to family tradition, culture, television and movies. Later in the 20-30s.. night time prowlers were a foremost concern. People would keep handguns readily available in the top drawer of the nightstand ( next to the family bible).

Many, many stories and fables seem to romanticize the idea of things going bump in the night. The nightstand gun has simply be come a cultural norm derived mostly from habit not necessarily from statistical likelihood. IMO, crime is pretty much 50/49.9( day vs night) with the exception of Burglaries which most often occur in the daytime. Naturally people tend to experience more trepidation during the night. People do not thing of the boogie-man during the day. Call it instinct, DNA or whatever but concerned associated with predation and darkness are alive and well in todays Human.

I have a nightstand gun, everything else is locked up.
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...

Last edited by FireForged; February 10, 2020 at 09:44 PM.
FireForged is offline  
Old February 11, 2020, 06:52 AM   #82
OhioGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 11, 2016
Posts: 1,089
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMarksman View Post
Why is it that so many people emphasize 'bedside" and "night"?
Good question. I've read in many places, and heard from cops/ex-cops, that break-ins are most likely to occur during daylight hours, executed by people who've watched a neighborhood to figure out when people are least likely to be home, so they can grab something quick and get away without being detected or confronted. Most people are away during the day, and even if they aren't, usually don't have security systems armed or activated.

Now someone I worked with awoke a few years ago to find her purse missing, searched everywhere, swore she'd seen it the night before -- turned out it had in fact been stolen in the night by some kid who'd been watching houses. He got the sliding door open somehow, grabbed the nearby purse, closed the door and left.

The shock of learning that someone of ill intent had access to their home was pretty profound. Statistics don't comfort someone who ends up being a victim. Of course she now has a security system, as do several other people who heard her story.

I still abide by my own understanding of statistics. The chances of a burglar being in my house are very small -- smaller still, a burglar who wants a confrontation or is intent on hurting someone. The chances of the kids who live in my house, being in my house, are 300%. The chances of them exercising sound judgment at all times are...probably zero, they're kids (and boys, no less!). So the odds of a tragedy due to an unsecured firearm are drastically higher than the odds of me being overcome by an intruder during the extra 5 seconds it takes to activate a biometric safe. I'm willing to live with those odds.

I read recently that Rob Pincus is launching some new "real gun safety" group or movement that includes training on safe firearm storage. Pretty sure that message includes never leaving unimpeded access to a weapon for anyone. Rob's cool, so I feel validated

From a press release:

"One of their first initiatives is pushing something they’re calling GunPRO (Pledge for Responsible Ownership). They’re looking for the support of gun shops, ranges, clubs and state associations to promote gun owners taking the GunPRO pledge.

Their three-part pledge will be to 1) learn to use your firearm safely, 2) prevent unauthorized access to it, and to 3) seek voluntary, temporary alternate storage of your gun (with a friend, a club, an FFL, etc.) in times of mental health or other crisis situations when having a gun in the house may present a risk."
OhioGuy is offline  
Old February 11, 2020, 09:53 AM   #83
FAS1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 9, 2010
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMarksman View Post
Why is it that so many people emphasize 'bedside" and "night"?
For me, it's because that's when I feel most vulnerable since it's the only time I am not armed. Having a dedicated home defense gun means it's always there to access, but primarily when sleeping.
__________________
Glenn
FAS1 SAFE
FAS1 is online now  
Old February 11, 2020, 03:32 PM   #84
Lohman446
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 22, 2016
Posts: 2,192
With the prevalence of teen suicide I would argue its not just about restricting firearms from accidental unsafe handling. Even the most caring of parents have misread signs and I cannot imagine anything worse than sitting in the living room, hearing the gun shot, and finding a child who had intentionally taken his or her life in a moment of poor decision making. It happened with one of my eldest child's friends and class mates in high school and I simply cannot imagine how the parents have managed through it.

Yes I know teenagers have successfully used a firearm to thwart would be intruders and those meaning them harm.

I will also tell you that my firearms, except for one display rifle, are in a safe that only my wife and I have legitimate access to. That rifle has no ammunition outside of the safe. Could the safe be overcome? Sure can. Are there countless other ways of taking ones life? Yep. However I am not certain that any is as quick and "spur of the moment" as a child walking by a poorly stored handgun.

Teaching your child safe gun handling habits such as DO NOT TOUCH is important because you never know when they may come across an unexpected firearm. However those habits can not be relied on as your only level of safety

Last edited by Lohman446; February 11, 2020 at 04:47 PM. Reason: Accept does not equal except
Lohman446 is offline  
Old February 11, 2020, 04:05 PM   #85
TBM900
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 2, 2015
Posts: 678
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lohman446 View Post
With the prevalence of teen suicide I would argue its not just about restricting firearms from accidental unsafe handling. Even the most caring of parents have misread signs...

Teaching your child safe gun handling habits such as DO NOT TOUCH is important because you never know when they may come across an unexpected firearm. However those habits can not be relied on as your only level of safety
Well said.
I equate those who think "I've taught my kids not to touch guns", to those who say "I've trained my pitbull, it wouldn't hurt anyone".
I grew up on a huge working ranch where firearms were tools and part of every day life, this during a time where outside influence was less than tame compared to what kids are bombarded with today.
__________________
Playboy billionaire
Retired Colonial Marine
1st to walk on the moon without a spacesuit
TBM900 is offline  
Old February 11, 2020, 07:58 PM   #86
zoo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 2, 2019
Posts: 285
There are a lot of different possible scenarios including being awoken with the sensation of feeling the cold steel of a gun barrel being pressed against your forehead. Doesn't mean there aren't plenty of other scenarios in which your firearm could be your lifesaver.
zoo is offline  
Old February 11, 2020, 09:13 PM   #87
Lohman446
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 22, 2016
Posts: 2,192
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoo View Post
There are a lot of different possible scenarios including being awoken with the sensation of feeling the cold steel of a gun barrel being pressed against your forehead. Doesn't mean there aren't plenty of other scenarios in which your firearm could be your lifesaver.
There are. What is the time difference between a gun in a readily accessed safe and one laying chambered on the nightstand? A few seconds. While this would be a seeming eternity in an engagement from concealed I think you have to argue towards the extreme for it to make the difference in a night time aggression in your house. For that to matter the intruder has breached the soft perimeter of the motion lights, the physical perimeter of the house, ignored the blaring alarm, neutralized the dog, and approached his or her objective. Possible? Sure is. Likely that the difference between a quick access safe and unsecured storage makes “the” difference? Judge for yourself but it’s unlikely enough in my opinion that I will opt for reasonably secure storage.
Lohman446 is offline  
Old February 11, 2020, 09:16 PM   #88
jmr40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 15, 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 10,096
My kids are grown, but grandkids ages 4 months to 12 years visit. All of my semi-auto handguns have loaded magazines with empty chambers unless they are on my person and directly in my control. Then the chamber is also loaded. Revolvers and long guns are unloaded. Most of the guns are locked in the safe, but at least one handgun is accessible, but out of sight at all times.

By the time my kids, and now grandkids are old enough to chamber a round, they are old enough to know better. They've been taught what a gun is for from an early age and given the chance to actually shoot. They have observed the damage possible.

I realize that not everyone agrees with that approach, but it works for me.

Suicide and mentally incompetent persons are something to take seriously. But those people almost never act without advance warning. If there were any hint of an issue with anyone in my family I'd alter what I do.
__________________
"If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong"

Winston Churchill
jmr40 is online now  
Old February 11, 2020, 09:24 PM   #89
Lohman446
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 22, 2016
Posts: 2,192
Quote:
Suicide and mentally incompetent persons are something to take seriously. But those people almost never act without advance warning.
I’m sure almost every parent, partner, or friend who has had a loved one commit suicide wonders how they missed the signs. The thing is if I presented a false positive (lied and said someone had committed suicide who had not) I bet many people would readily identify the signs. I expect, in hind sight, they are easy to identify. Still trained and well respected mental health workers miss the signs often enough in the moment. In a rapidly evolving world it is very hard to judge teenage “stuff” from serious mental health issues. Many of us don’t even realize what the current “normal” is. Most people will be fine believing they will see the signs ahead of time because they won’t be touched so close to home by it that they feel they could have prevented it. Those that aren’t likely spend a lot of time second guessing.
Lohman446 is offline  
Old February 11, 2020, 11:16 PM   #90
Ralph III
Junior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2019
Posts: 4
Quote:
quote by TBM 900...."If you have to have it "instantly available".... then you've already FAILED.

Long before one considers a firearm, they need to plan and put in place the means to slow criminals down -AND- warn the occupants before entry is made. This notion of "instantly available" etc, is just an emotional crutch used by the unprepared. Criminals aren't going to fast rope through your windows guns blazing. It's just a silly notion.

The reality is that you aren't doing your family any favors if you do not have early warning and barriers to slow entry."
I agree with most of what you stated but you inadvertently created an "emotional crutch" and a false sense of security as well with your post.

First, I got into professional alarm systems as a hobby and have sold and installed many over decades. Criminals are fully aware people have alarm systems, btw. Given such, many resort to what is called "smash and grab". They will indeed smash into a window or door and grab as much as they can as quickly as they can. They know there may be an alarm system and yes some or many will have a weapon on them.

So it is prudent to have a gun "instantly available" and that shouldn't be diminished in any way. There was actually a video recently of this exact scenario, whereas three thugs smashed in a front door and immediately entered a residence. The owner must have had his weapon beside his bed because he quickly exchanged gunfire with the first suspect as the suspect peered into the master bedroom door. The three thugs quickly fled but the elderly home owner did suffer a minor gunshot wound by the perp. All of this took place in less than 10 seconds and was captured on his surveillance camera/cam.

So you are grossly wrong to state such is a "silly" notion. It happens quite often and some folks aren't as lucky. A violent criminal is going to be armed and "smash and grab" is a technique thieves use.

Having said all of that, what should be promoted is redundant safety measures.

*Your first defense (exterior) is looking for vulnerabilities to your home and addressing them. Do not leave the garage open or cars unlocked or valuables in plain sight (etc). You should install motion lights and/or exterior cameras (fake or real). Maintain low shrubbery and have burglar alarm decals posted (on windows and on lawn). Those efforts will discourage most or many would-be-thieves.

*The second defense is beefing up doors and windows as needed or practical and keeping them locked.

*The third defense is installing an alarm system.

*The last defense is a firearm.

There are numerous other things you can do (neighborhood watch, etc) but this is a good general start and practical. None of them should be considered sufficient by themselves, which is what you were attempting to convey.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In regards to the subject.

1) The first thing you should do is teach your children about firearms and the dangers thereof at a very young age. This accomplishes two things. *It removes their curiosity. *You teach them SAFETY and RESPONSIBILITY first (emphasis added).

This is what I did. I purchased a CO2 pellet pistol (Beretta 92F) without a CO2 cartridge or pellets. I then fully explained the gun to my daughters and the dangers thereof. I then left the pellet gun on a tv tray stand in the common area of our home for several days. During that time I watched my daughters carefully and unbeknownst to them, as they constantly walked past or played near the pellet gun. At no time did they approach the pellet gun or show curiosity with it. They were very young but what I had stressed to them worked.

Upon putting the pellet gun away I again explained that they were never to touch a gun without my permission or being present. I then explained they were to immediately leave and find an adult if they ever witnessed another child messing with a firearm.

If you have a firearm and children, then it is extremely important to teach them about it and to satisfy their curiosity. A fake firearm can do just that. I started shooting at age 6, btw. which is nearly 50 years ago now.

2) I keep my firearm (Kahr 9mm semi auto) in the closet on a high shelf that only adults know about and can reach. It is quickly accessible if necessary.

3) When we have visiting children I keep our guns in a bio-metric gun safe and make our bedroom off limits.

4) I would never keep a gun with an empty chamber and consider that an adequate safety measure. There is just to much that could go wrong. You may forget to rack the gun under stress in case of a home invasion. You may forget to empty the chamber before sticking it in the night stand.

If I kept it in the night stand it would be in a gun safe or I'd have some sort of lock or hidden latch on the night stand drawer.

See JMR40's post as well. It was very good.

God Bless,
Ralph

Last edited by Ralph III; February 11, 2020 at 11:32 PM.
Ralph III is offline  
Old February 12, 2020, 09:03 AM   #91
OldMarksman
Staff
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 3,915
Quote:
If you have to have it "instantly available".... then you've already FAILED.
Alrighty then. Migh it not be prudent to prepare for that contingency?

Quote:
Long before one considers a firearm, they need to plan and put in place the means to slow criminals down -AND- warn the occupants before entry is made. ....The reality is that you aren't doing your family any favors if you do not have early warning and barriers to slow entry.
A noble idea, with limited real effectiveness.

Intruders can come in whan one is taking meat out to the grill, or when one is arriving home from the store. What "barriers" would "slow criminals down" sufficiently when that happens?

Quote:
This notion of "instantly available" etc, is just an emotional crutch used by the unprepared.
I see it as prudent mitigation of a serious risk--not as an "emotional crutch".
OldMarksman is offline  
Old February 12, 2020, 09:47 AM   #92
FAS1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 9, 2010
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 495
I agree with security in layers is important and the gun is the last result when all other measures have failed.

While firearms education is a key factor and doing everything you can to remove the curiosity children have about guns, boys tend to gravitate to firearms more than girls do. Boys under 14 have a 4:1 ratio of dying from a firearm than girls.

A quick access safe is just a good idea because the risks of leaving a gun laying around just aren't worth taking today. Putting a gun up high because you think they can't get to it or leaving it with the chamber empty because you think they can't rack the slide is just not worth it.

When toddlers play with guns and get killed you see that they shoot themselves in or near the face quite often. Seems to me that happens when they place the butt of the gun on the floor to aid them in manipulating the slide or pushing the trigger with their thumbs.

I think we all have also seen young boys (primarily) on hidden cameras play with guns they find in the playroom even though they were taught not to touch a gun if they ever find one. Again, with all the options today, it's just not worth it. I can access my handgun in my safe while in bed in about 2-3 seconds. That seems fast enough to me.

https://youtu.be/CcJUGuB35y8
__________________
Glenn
FAS1 SAFE
FAS1 is online now  
Old February 12, 2020, 10:13 AM   #93
GarandTd
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 15, 2016
Location: Western PA rainforests
Posts: 1,448
Local to me, a 3 year old girl was killed the other day when she got ahold of Grandpa's loaded gun under a pillow. While he slept next to her.

I don't keep any loaded guns around the house unless they are on my person. My kids know better, but that doesn't mean anything. Part of growing up is doing things that you know better than to do.

There are risks in life that I will take, but leaving a loaded(or not loaded) gun laying around, hidden or not, to be discovered by a child is not one of them. The little ones are too curious and the pressures on the older kids these days is a lot to bear. Suicide, bullying, media.....the world our kids are growing up in is toxic.
__________________
22lr, 20 gauge, 8mm Mauser, 35 Remington, 30-06, 5.56x45/223, 9mm, 380acp

Last edited by GarandTd; February 12, 2020 at 06:45 PM.
GarandTd is offline  
Old February 12, 2020, 06:52 PM   #94
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 1,983
Quote:
Alrighty then. Migh it not be prudent to prepare for that contingency?
it is certainly prudent if you are going to do NOTHING to mitigate the danger until it happens. If you subscribe to this sort of mindset, I guess you may as well leave your doors unlocked and open.

I agree that [IF] you feel that it is necessary to instantly have a weapon while you are inside your own home, you have probably failed or neglected to properly address common security concerns.

Quote:
A noble idea, with limited real effectiveness
I think you have the wrong idea of what layered security is intended to accomplish. Of course its limited, so is a gun. The idea is to afford the defender "time". Time to detect, time to warn ( sounds the alarm) time to formulate an appropriate response, time to respond/confront and time to initiate a request for help. Its 101 kind of stuff but it begins with deterring, if that doesn't work.. hindering, delaying and obstructing the mission of the badguy via environmental or physical impediment. If that doesn't work, you may have to address the danger with physical force.

Quote:
I see it as prudent mitigation of a serious risk--not as an "emotional crutch".
a prudent mitigation of serious risk would be all the things you seemingly scoff at in this thread.

Through your preemptive efforts:

...a significant mitigation would be when the badguy never chooses your home to begin with.

…a significant mitiagation would be when the badguy aborts his mission due to time constraints or unexpected difficulties

…a significant mitigation would be never having to confront the badguy with force

.. a serious mitigation is the blessing of the "time" needed to detect the danger, prepare and perhaps defend.
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...

Last edited by FireForged; February 13, 2020 at 08:20 AM.
FireForged is offline  
Old February 13, 2020, 08:26 AM   #95
OldMarksman
Staff
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 3,915
Quote:
it is certainly prudent if you are going to do NOTHING to mitigate the danger until it happens. If you subscribe to this sort of mindset, I guess you may as well leave your doors unlocked and open.

I agree that [IF] you feel that it is necessary to instantly have a weapon while you are inside your own home, you have probably failed or neglected to properly address common security concerns.
I think that is unrealistic and rather naive.

Quote:
The idea is to afford the defender "time". Time to detect, time to warn ( sounds the alarm) time to formulate an appropriate response, time to respond/confront and time to initiate a request for help. Its 101 kind of stuff but it begins with deterring, if that doesn't work.. hindering, delaying and obstructing the mission of the badguy via environmental or physical impediment. If that doesn't work, you may have to address the danger with physical force.
If [/I]your house is really hardened, and if you have all those funcions activated all the time, that would help.

But realistically, ne cannot reasonably keep every deadbolt locked and every alarm activated all the time and still come and go, cook outside, sit on the porch, garden, and otherwise live normally.

Quote:
Though your preemptive efforts:

...a significant mitigation would be when the badguy never chooses your home to begin with.

…a significant mitiagation would be when the badguy aborts his mission due to time constraints or unexpected difficulties

…a significant mitigation would be never having to confront the badguy with force

.. a serious mitigation is the blessing of the "time" needed to detect the danger, prepare and perhaps defend.
You are misusing the "verb to mitigate".
OldMarksman is offline  
Old February 13, 2020, 09:21 AM   #96
Lohman446
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 22, 2016
Posts: 2,192
Quote:
time to formulate an appropriate response
I'm an advocate of secure storage. I would argue the few seconds difference between stored securely in a safe on your nightstand and stored openly on your nightstand is highly unlikely to make the difference. I would agree with much of what you said but I am going to take exception to this. If it is in the presence of the threat that you decide to formulate an appropriate response it is highly likely to get you killed. Your response should be formulated, communicated, and rehearsed well before that. "Intruder front door", "intruder patio door", "intruder kids bedroom" etc. should have a formulated, communicated, and rehearsed response prior to the event. If you have to formulate the response AS the threat is happening, firearm or not, it is not likely to go well for you. I would rather be in a group that had a rehearsed evacuation plan than an armed group who had not considered it until things went wrong.

Quote:
But realistically, ne cannot reasonably keep every deadbolt locked and every alarm activated all the time and still come and go, cook outside, sit on the porch, garden, and otherwise live normally
This objection is overcome, at least by some advocates on this board, by carrying anytime you are awake and dressed. If your carry arm is part of your normal dress accept when sleeping or showering (others may add other exceptions, I know I do) than the concern is only about secure storage off person such as the nightstand or safe
Lohman446 is offline  
Old February 13, 2020, 09:53 AM   #97
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 1,983
Quote:
I think that is unrealistic and rather naïve
I welcome you to explain in thoughtful detail how common sense coupled with socratic reasoning, is unrealistic and naïve.

Quote:
If [/I]your house is really hardened, and if you have all those funcions activated all the time, that would help.

But realistically, ne cannot reasonably keep every deadbolt locked and every alarm activated all the time and still come and go, cook outside, sit on the porch, garden, and otherwise live normally.
we are not talking about being outside gardening, you are changing the parameters of the discussion to somehow support your argument. We are talking about nightstand guns, guns in the house, kids in the house and intruders to the home.

You seem to object to commonly accepted logic but you have not offered any real qualifying point ( that I can identify) other than veiled negativity. Perhaps you can offer some conceptual logic which stands in support of your argument, criticism or whatever issue you may have with the idea of layered security. Again, we are not talking about gardening, mowing yard or fishing. The basic confines of the discussion were outlined in the fire few posts.

Quote:
You are misusing the "verb to mitigate".
many many efforts and action can contribute to the mitigation of danger and risk. My whole point stands in support of the many mitigating acts to hopefully achieve many mitigations to varying degrees and to the same end.

If I am misusing the word, verb or sentiment.. please explain
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...
FireForged is offline  
Old February 13, 2020, 10:03 AM   #98
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 1,983
Quote:
Your response should be formulated, communicated, and rehearsed well before that. "Intruder front door", "intruder patio door", "intruder kids bedroom" etc. should have a formulated, communicated, and rehearsed response prior to the event.
Its nice to assume that everything will happen in the way you have planned for and that whatever plan you have constructed will address absolutely every danger or threat. Sure you should plan, train and run scenarios, its common sense. It doesn't mean that when the crap hits the fan that you may not be required to act on the fly or do something completely different, in a alternate manner, different order, different direction or scrap the PLAN altogether for something completely new. Time is your friend and no matter how much you plan and train, there will likely ALWAYS be a measure of formulation based on the specifics of what is happening and what has happened. Plans do not cover everything and most "plans" are quickly reduced to a basic "spirit of the plan" or "plan-like" response.
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...

Last edited by FireForged; February 13, 2020 at 10:15 AM.
FireForged is offline  
Old February 13, 2020, 10:40 AM   #99
Lohman446
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 22, 2016
Posts: 2,192
Deviating from a plan due to unforeseen circumstances is far easier, and more likely to have a positive outcome, than simply not planning because any plan may require deviation.
Lohman446 is offline  
Old February 13, 2020, 10:48 AM   #100
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 1,983
nothing I have said suggests that a person should not have a plan well ahead of time. You seem to have an issue with the word "formulate" in regards to a response. Use another similar word if it satisfies your objection. I doubt it will change the meaning of what I said.
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...

Last edited by FireForged; February 13, 2020 at 10:57 AM.
FireForged is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:01 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2020 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13700 seconds with 9 queries