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Old January 29, 2020, 06:04 PM   #51
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That is a significant expense on an Patrolman's salary. It is sad that Departments spend so little on such an important aspect of protecting both the officer and the public.


Agreed, but:

1. I reload, and the cost is only $13/100-rounds and $11.24 for each range session at an indoor range for a total cost of $37.24 per weekly session.
2. It comes off my Taxes.
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Old February 1, 2020, 12:11 AM   #52
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Problem is if departments train their officers too extensively on the range or at least more-so than that which is commonly practiced by other agencies in their geographic region, they get accused of training killers.
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Old February 1, 2020, 11:48 AM   #53
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Problem is if departments train their officers too extensively on the range or at least more-so than that which is commonly practiced by other agencies in their geographic region, they get accused of training killers.
I see that as an excuse.

The facts do not bear the conclusion out that a better trained police force does anything other than make the public that much safer.

If the leadership lacks the grit and ability to explain those facts to the public then voters need to replace that leadership.

Not training LEO's has much higher consequences paid in blood for political expediency.
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Old February 1, 2020, 03:51 PM   #54
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PR issues can usually be dealt with using PR techniques. Just make sure that firearm/tactics training is balanced with training in nonviolent conflict resolution/less lethal techniques, etc. and keep records.
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Old February 3, 2020, 01:39 AM   #55
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I see that as an excuse.
DavidSOG, I do too.

But that doesn't mean it isn't going to be the perspectives from a large portion of the public we serve. Look at all the other crazy logic we as 2nd Amendment supporters have to counter.

Quote:
The facts do not bear the conclusion out that a better trained police force does anything other than make the public that much safer.
I'm not so sure current data does in fact bear that out as it relates specifically to firearm/shoot-no shoot training for law enforcement officers.

If I recall correctly, you are for the most part a military trained individual. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

In my experience and observations as a civilian police officer, extensive officer training in firearms and tactics (sometimes known in the past as "officers survival school") resulted in officers including myself becoming less tolerant to taking risks in threat situations that we would have previously taken due to ignorance or other reasons. Meaning; many individuals walked away from situations wherein the responsible law enforcement response should have been the use of deadly force.

Quote:
If the leadership lacks the grit and ability to explain those facts to the public then voters need to replace that leadership.
Lot of things intelligent minds try to inform folks that seem to fall on deaf ears regardless of the "leadership, grit, and abilities" the folks doing the informing possess. Come on, you know that. I don't mean to denigrate the public in general but really...
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Old February 3, 2020, 01:48 AM   #56
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PR issues can usually be dealt with using PR techniques. Just make sure that firearm/tactics training is balanced with training in nonviolent conflict resolution/less lethal techniques, etc. and keep records
John, I agree with your comment 100%.

Unfortunately, most civilian law enforcement managers/administrators over the last two or three decades seem to prefer to spend public funds on the militarization of their law enforcement agencies. Mostly in the form of buying high tech military equipment from uncle Sam rather than spending money on training their officers.
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Old February 3, 2020, 08:28 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by davidsog
If the leadership lacks the grit and ability to explain those facts to the public then voters need to replace that leadership.
The only chief law enforcement officers that are elected in the United States are sheriffs, and in some parts of the country sheriff's offices don't even provide street-level law enforcement, they only provide courtroom security, jail operation, and prisoner trasport.
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Old February 3, 2020, 11:09 AM   #58
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The only chief law enforcement officers that are elected in the United States are sheriffs, and in some parts of the country sheriff's offices don't even provide street-level law enforcement, they only provide courtroom security, jail operation, and prisoner trasport.
And in other parts of the country they do provide Law Enforcement as any other agency and it is the County Police that provide the duties you allude too.

What does that have to do with the fact any mayor can fire his Chief Of Police or that all Law Enforcement Department heads are answerable to their elected Government?

Last edited by JohnKSa; February 4, 2020 at 01:06 AM. Reason: .
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Old February 3, 2020, 11:36 AM   #59
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I'm not so sure current data does in fact bear that out as it relates specifically to firearm/shoot-no shoot training for law enforcement officers.

In my experience and observations as a civilian police officer, extensive officer training in firearms and tactics (sometimes known in the past as "officers survival school") resulted in officers including myself becoming less tolerant to taking risks in threat situations that we would have previously taken due to ignorance or other reasons. Meaning; many individuals walked away from situations wherein the responsible law enforcement response should have been the use of deadly force.
Sounds like many Departments are confusing Officer Survival Tactics and marksmanship/weapon skills. They have a training issue.

A member of the President's 100 is a skilled marksman but not SOTIC qualified nor can they conduct an assaulter's mission.

Just as a soldier wishes to return from a combat tour a LEO wishes to survive to retirement. It is a worthy goal all hope to achieve. Unfortunately the mission sometimes dictates.

Imagine where the world would be if the US Army refused to step onto the Beaches of Normandy because some of our soldiers would be killed.

Proper training is the key and my statement refers to that. Improper Training makes everyone less safe. In fact, I would go so far as to say increased weapon skill opens up options that increase both the public and officers level of safety.


Which brings me to:

Quote:
Unfortunately, most civilian law enforcement managers/administrators over the last two or three decades seem to prefer to spend public funds on the militarization of their law enforcement agencies.
LE is a completely different mission from the Military. Unfortunately you are absolutely right in that many LEO cannot separate the two.

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Lot of things intelligent minds try to inform folks that seem to fall on deaf ears regardless of the "leadership, grit, and abilities" the folks doing the informing possess.
To clarify, I was not talking about LEO leadership but rather the elected officials who set LEO policy. While I am sure there are some substandard leadership operating in LEO positions I would think they are more focused on crime fighting and the elected leadership more focused on electorate perceptions as a gross general statement.
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Old February 3, 2020, 03:11 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by davidsog
And in other parts of the country they do provide Law Enforcement as any other agency and it is the County Police that provide the duties you allude too.

What does that have to do with the fact any mayor can fire his Chief Of Police or that all Law Enforcement Department heads are answerable to their elected Government?
Previous to the above, you wrote:

Quote:
I see that as an excuse.

The facts do not bear the conclusion out that a better trained police force does anything other than make the public that much safer.

If the leadership lacks the grit and ability to explain those facts to the public then voters need to replace that leadership.
Voters can't replace leaders who are not chosen by the voters.

You have since clarified your statement, but your meaning was evidently not clear in the earlier post.
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Old February 3, 2020, 04:32 PM   #61
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Voters can't replace leaders who are not chosen by the voters.
Voters can replace the leaders who set policy, choose those individuals, and they can vote in leadership that emphasizes the values the electorate wants in office.

For example...

Under one President's Administration....

Offensive kinetic Ops in the GWOT ground to a halt and our enemies where given a break they badly needed including a influx of cash.

When new leadership was elected that all changed and offensive kinetic ops came back putting our enemies back on the defensive.

Last edited by JohnKSa; February 4, 2020 at 01:05 AM. Reason: .
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Old February 3, 2020, 04:38 PM   #62
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On the National Level:

Quote:
But few are proving as thorny as criminal justice reform, often for very personal reasons.
https://time.com/5615053/2020-democr...ustice-reform/

Local and State politicians also have platforms on Criminal Justice and Law Enforcement.

Last edited by JohnKSa; February 4, 2020 at 01:08 AM. Reason: .
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Old February 4, 2020, 08:15 PM   #63
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Sounds like many Departments are confusing Officer Survival Tactics and marksmanship/weapon skills. They have a training issue.
Davidsog, actually what I am saying is that when officer tactics and marksmanship/weapon skills training are not extensively supplemented with training in the sociological aspects related to the nature of their occupation in civilian law enforcement, an imbalance occurs and as a result more people needlessly die.

As a well-trained police officer, I soon learned that to perform my duties appropriately I was going to have to occasionally take huge risks whether I liked it or not. I saw doing so as being my duty to the people I served.
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Old February 5, 2020, 01:50 AM   #64
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Personally, I think we're swinging too far in the direction of exposing police officers to unnecessary danger.

I recently watched a video where a guy with a knife backed a cop down the street for around a block with the cop pointing a gun at him and screaming for him to stop and drop the knife the whole time. The attacker was eventually killed, but only after getting his hands on the cop and trying to take his gun. If society were made up of more people like me, that cop would have been comfortable resolving that situation much more quickly and without having to expose himself to nearly as much risk.
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Old February 6, 2020, 09:05 PM   #65
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Problem is if departments train their officers too extensively on the range or at least more-so than that which is commonly practiced by other agencies in their geographic region, they get accused of training killers.
I never heard of that.
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Old February 9, 2020, 11:00 PM   #66
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I never heard of that.
Probably because I made it up. But it makes sense!
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Old February 13, 2020, 05:34 AM   #67
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I've worked full time for one agency in my career and part time for three others over the years.

All of my chiefs were civil service who could only be removed for cause. None ever were. One guy did make a few dumb decisions and manage to burn some bridges with the village board but he exited to another job after getting a letter of reprimand.

NO, most police departments aren't spending their budget buying surplus military equipment from the Federal Government. Where do people come up with such foolish notions?

Twenty years ago or so it was possible to get surplus M-16 and elderly NVGs and a few other things through the DRMO program. It was a bureaucratic nightmare to get anything, and only a few agencies in my area even bothered. I believe the program still exists but I'm not sure.

The city police did get a free (or low cost) MRAP vehicle and quickly discovered that it was WAY too big for it's intended use. After a few years they replaced it with a Lenco Bearcat.

It always fascinates me when people who are not in law enforcement and have no idea what they are talking about choose to share their ignorance. It's okay if you don't actually know. You don't have to say anything in that case.
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Old February 13, 2020, 09:22 AM   #68
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NO, most police departments aren't spending their budget buying surplus military equipment from the Federal Government. Where do people come up with such foolish notions?
From pictures like this(?)..Madison PD

https://madison.com/wsj/news/local/c...615698e63.html
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Old February 16, 2020, 02:04 AM   #69
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That MRAP was nearly free because it was surplus.

AND THEY DON'T HAVE IT ANY MORE because it turned out to be TOO BIG, have unexpectedly poor performance off a hard surface and to be top heavy. They replaced it with a LENCO Bearcat.

(I don't know where the MRAP went -- some other police agency)
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Old February 16, 2020, 08:19 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Jeff22 View Post
That MRAP was nearly free because it was surplus.

AND THEY DON'T HAVE IT ANY MORE because it turned out to be TOO BIG, have unexpectedly poor performance off a hard surface and to be top heavy. They replaced it with a LENCO Bearcat.

(I don't know where the MRAP went -- some other police agency)
I get that but you asked where people get the idea that PDs are getting a bunch of military gear and 'look' like they are a 'military' outfit..is all..
Quote:
NO, most police departments aren't spending their budget buying surplus military equipment from the Federal Government. Where do people come up with such foolish notions?
NOT saying it's NOT necessary but PD all over are getting a bunch of this stuff.
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Old February 16, 2020, 12:50 PM   #71
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"PD all over are getting a bunch of this stuff"

And the reason LEO's are "getting a bunch of this stuff" is due to Officer safety. Cops are dying. It is not part of a secret "New World Order" agenda, as has been alluded to by others on social media. It IS all about SAFETY! Watch the nightly news or research Officer.com and you will see that law enforcement officers are being killed on an almost daily basis around the Country. Between meth labs, gangs, wacko's, drugged up anti social ex cons, armed anti police thugs claiming a political Agenda in order to justify rioting, looting and destroy / burning their neighborhoods, is it any wonder why LEO's want better equipment and a strong military like presence?
LEO Adminstrators currently face huge issues trying to recruit new Officers... not many want the stress, danger, liability and BS (anti LEO media and lawmakers), that comes with the job. FAR better money and satisfaction available in the Trades! If your child or grandchild wanted to become a Cop (and you couldn't talk them out of it!!), wouldn't you want them armed and equipped with the BEST technology and weapons available?
If technology, better equipment and a military like appearance saves Officers lives and increases recruiting, then so be it. We expect people to enforce the law in today's America and risk their lives doing it? Then equip them properly and support them instead of constantly criticizing them. We are a nation of Laws. Someone has to enforce those laws. This isn't 1955.
This is 2020... good luck finding the Town of Mayberry.

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Old February 17, 2020, 08:04 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by shurshot View Post
"PD all over are getting a bunch of this stuff"

And the reason LEO's are "getting a bunch of this stuff" is due to Officer safety. Cops are dying. It is not part of a secret "New World Order" agenda, as has been alluded to by others on social media. It IS all about SAFETY! Watch the nightly news or research Officer.com and you will see that law enforcement officers are being killed on an almost daily basis around the Country. Between meth labs, gangs, wacko's, drugged up anti social ex cons, armed anti police thugs claiming a political Agenda in order to justify rioting, looting and destroy / burning their neighborhoods, is it any wonder why LEO's want better equipment and a strong military like presence?
LEO Adminstrators currently face huge issues trying to recruit new Officers... not many want the stress, danger, liability and BS (anti LEO media and lawmakers), that comes with the job. FAR better money and satisfaction available in the Trades! If your child or grandchild wanted to become a Cop (and you couldn't talk them out of it!!), wouldn't you want them armed and equipped with the BEST technology and weapons available?
If technology, better equipment and a military like appearance saves Officers lives and increases recruiting, then so be it. We expect people to enforce the law in today's America and risk their lives doing it? Then equip them properly and support them instead of constantly criticizing them. We are a nation of Laws. Someone has to enforce those laws. This isn't 1955.
This is 2020... good luck finding the Town of Mayberry.
Calm down, I was answering what the guy said about 'Where do people come up with such foolish notions?"..And I DID say,
"NOT saying it's NOT necessary but PD all over are getting a bunch of this stuff."

I never made any comment on whether or not PDs should or should NOT 'look' like military outfits..I NOT Criticizing ANYBODY..
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Old February 17, 2020, 11:25 AM   #73
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The reality is that police departments aren't getting this military gear because they need it, they're getting it becauser the government is giving it away and most PDs, like most people, just can't say "No" to free [stuff]. In recent years, I've taken Citizens' Police Academy courses at two nearby police departments. Both departments have Humvees that were given to them as surplus by the U.S. military. They said the government practically begged them to take them ... so they did.

And what they found was that they were worse than useless as civilian, police vehicles. They're slow, and they require so much maintenance (requiring parts not readily available to civilians, even police departments -- such as the 24-volt electrical system) that they couldn't afford to keep them on the road. So both departments parked them in a garage and basically forgot about them. Both departments showed them to us as part of the class that included a tour of the facilities, but nobody could remember when the respective vehicles had actually been driven.

IMHO, based on information from two actual police departments, is that PDs are not actively seeking out surplus military vehicles and gear because the senior department heads have determined they have a need for the stuff, they are just accepting the stuff from the federal government because they don't know how to say "No."
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Old February 17, 2020, 11:57 AM   #74
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Aquila, In the mid 90's they tried to sell them to the Border Patrol. They put three in San Diego and told the Agents that they could not hurt them or gt them stuck...... Within 3 hours they were stuck and/or broken.

Plus at the time, to repair them they had to go back to AM General....
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Old February 20, 2020, 03:48 AM   #75
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Jeff22: NO, most police departments aren't spending their budget buying surplus military equipment from the Federal Government. Where do people come up with such foolish notions?
I don’t think anyone actually said that in this thread, Jeff. I know I certainly didn’t. What law enforcement agencies ARE doing is spending increasing proportions of their budgets to militarize their departments and/or taking advantage of government giveaways. Thanks primarily to the Pentagon's 1033 program, which allows law enforcement agencies to get their hands on Department of Defense technology, between 1998 and 2014 the dollar value of military hardware sent to police departments skyrocketed from $9.4 million to $796.8 million. Also as the police have militarized, focus has shifted from one who keeps the peace to one who enforces the law. That is an important difference.

With the militarization of law enforcement comes (in addition to other problems) increases in civil liberties violations, increased surveillance abuses, excessive use of force, substantial increases in the use of special tactical or “SWAT” type teams to the point that such use oftentimes becomes routine, and alienation from the communities they serve.

Let’s face it, it may be ok to have much of the equipment and for the most part a good thing at that. But, dressing up patrol officers to look like (and oftentimes act like) combat troops does nothing to enhance their image.

Looking and acting like an authoritarian occupation army does nothing to help to nullify the “us verse them” mentalities of the officers or the public they serve.

Quote:
Jeff22: It always fascinates me when people who are not in law enforcement and have no idea what they are talking about choose to share their ignorance.
Why would one have to be in law enforcement to be able to recognize the negative consequences of the militarization of our law enforcement community?

Quote:
Shurshot: And the reason LEO's are "getting a bunch of this stuff" is due to Officer safety. Cops are dying.
https://nleomf.org/facts-figures/officer-deaths-by-year

Unfortunately that has always been the case. What I’m trying to emphasize is that the way to more effectively lower these numbers is by improving LEO’S relationship with the public. Of course they also need to be effectively equipped to safely do their jobs.

Last edited by zoo; February 20, 2020 at 03:59 AM.
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