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Old November 3, 2019, 09:26 PM   #26
MTT TL
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Originally Posted by Don Fischer View Post
When I lived in Montana I had a friend that was on the Highway Patrol. Figured he'd shoot a lot, pretty good shooting buddy. I asked him about it. He hated shooting! The only gun he had was his duty gun and the only time it left his holster was once a year when he had to qualify! Really surprised me. Then again I worked on a base rifle range in the service, USAF. What I saw on there would terrify you. The worst of the bunch were older NCO's, I have no idea how they kept from shooting themselves! Qualifying in the AF was a joke, you could about do it throwing rocks at the target!

Something that always got me was here were people that actually had little use for firearms and it showed. But should the occasion arise where they might have to and they were going to die! Would be the same way in a police dept. Lot of cops never take out a gun but what they should train for is the one time they actually have to. I ran into a cop in NYC years ago. I was in a small store in Harlem and an alarm went off. Two cops walked in the door and let no one out till they found out what was going on. I noticed one cops gun, solid mass of rust. If he had to use it I'm not sure it would work. Obviously he didn't give a hoot about guns. To bad as at some point his life could hinge on that!

In any profession where your required to qualify even just yearly, the people doing it should be serious about using the gun. They may never need it and that's fine, the problem is if for some reason they do need it! Good chance then they die. Our police officer's should be well above average shooter's, in their business their life could depend on it, forget someone else's life. Qualifying once a year or even quarterly is a joke. In the extreme think about an infantry soldier in battle. Really thing it does any good for him not to be all he can with his rifle? I think his life depends on it!

Cops in a good program for training and taking advantage of it, my hat's off to you! Those that don't take advantage of it, good luck, you won't know you really need it until you need it and then it's to late!
Thanks Don, your post illustrates exactly the point I am making.
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Old November 5, 2019, 07:56 AM   #27
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Some snipped.
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Originally Posted by Don Fischer View Post
I ran into a cop in NYC years ago. I was in a small store in Harlem and an alarm went off. Two cops walked in the door and let no one out till they found out what was going on. I noticed one cops gun, solid mass of rust. If he had to use it I'm not sure it would work. Obviously he didn't give a hoot about guns. To bad as at some point his life could hinge on that!

In any profession where your required to qualify even just yearly, the people doing it should be serious about using the gun. They may never need it and that's fine, the problem is if for some reason they do need it! Good chance then they die. Our police officer's should be well above average shooter's, in their business their life could depend on it, forget someone else's life. Qualifying once a year or even quarterly is a joke. In the extreme think about an infantry soldier in battle. Really thing it does any good for him not to be all he can with his rifle? I think his life depends on it!
Question then..in Police departments..are 'issued' guns kept by the LEO? Or do they keep them at the department, put them on when they get to work? Are they kept in an armory or in the person's 'locker'? For this essential 'tool' for the LEO, are they inspected, tested by somebody to make sure they work? The above seems like a traffic cop in a car that wouldn't start..
I would think it would be in the department's best interest to make sure these 'tools' are in good working order..even if the officer doesn't care..
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Old November 5, 2019, 08:45 AM   #28
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Not an LEO. All IO know is that a friend who was responsible for private gun club ranges said "dont ever let cops shoot on your range."

He must have had a bad experience w/ some dept(s)?

Few yrs ago wife and I were in our pick up camper at the range. Stayed overnight after Sundays match and planned on touring the aea for a few days in camper.

Fairly early Mon am, knock on the camper door and it was a LEO who advised us that they would start shooting soon. Hadnt heard/noticed several patrol cars had arrived.

Shooting began, I finished breakfast in the camper and then took my coffee out and observed the shooting.

At a cease fire I asked "where are the donuts?" WOW-- one fellow laughed, the 'boss' just looked disgusted at me. The laugher told me later "you asked the wrong question of that officer."

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Old November 5, 2019, 04:14 PM   #29
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Issued firearms are kept with the officer, just like a flashlight or a set of handcuffs. They could be kept in the officer's locker at work........where he will then (hopefully) transition to his off-duty weapon before leaving. Or, some officers take them home with them. All depends.
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Old November 23, 2019, 10:29 AM   #30
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If you mean a SWAT or similar team officer against a gun owner, enthusiast or not, most likely.
That is pretty funny. I recall one major metropolitan SWAT teams "sniper" was the guy who showed up at the weapon cage when the armorer happened to grab the only optic equipped rifle they had in the rack.

"Sniper" training for most LE departments consisted of the Remington Armorers course. No shooting just the armorers course.

The SWAT team in most departments I have seen is an ego club for the Department good ol'boy click.

That being said, there are some very professional SWAT teams in LE but they are not the norm.
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Old November 23, 2019, 11:00 AM   #31
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That is pretty funny. I recall one major metropolitan SWAT teams "sniper" was the guy who showed up at the weapon cage when the armorer happened to grab the only optic equipped rifle they had in the rack.



"Sniper" training for most LE departments consisted of the Remington Armorers course. No shooting just the armorers course.



The SWAT team in most departments I have seen is an ego club for the Department good ol'boy click.



That being said, there are some very professional SWAT teams in LE but they are not the norm.
Hence the use of "likely". In my experience the interested SWAT officer has been above the interested enthusiast in skill level. I haven't met disinterested SWAT officers at this point and my experience doesn't match your own, but I'm admittedly one person who has only interacted with X number of departments. YMMV.

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Old November 23, 2019, 11:33 AM   #32
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That is pretty funny. I recall one major metropolitan SWAT teams "sniper" was the guy who showed up at the weapon cage when the armorer happened to grab the only optic equipped rifle they had in the rack.

"Sniper" training for most LE departments consisted of the Remington Armorers course. No shooting just the armorers course.

The SWAT team in most departments I have seen is an ego club for the Department good ol'boy click.

That being said, there are some very professional SWAT teams in LE but they are not the norm.
this has been my experience as well.
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Old November 24, 2019, 02:30 AM   #33
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From my perspective, my state only requires one qualification per year. The qualification course must be with every firearm potentially carried, and a day and night shoot on pistols (night shoot for long guns is not required). A 30 round course is approved (30 day, 30 night), so technically 60 rounds pistol and 30 rounds for the long gun. My agency in addition usually does a combat course or live round shoot house a few times a year. I would say another 100 rounds or so fired during that training. Also there often are open range days for practice, probably every couple of months. Every officer that shows up will get a couple hundred rounds. Very few show up to open range days. The guys often still practice in their off time, it's just more convenient to practice in off time than to travel to the range on open range days that may not fit in their schedule.

I will say that about 1/2 of my agency are past time shooters, and they will get practice in on their off time at least some. I would rate them as formidable if they ever had to use their firearm. Probably 1/4 are what I would classify as skilled shooters. A few of us reload and shoot quite often. Most other agencies I know come close to parity with my agency. 1/2 of the officers aren't really "gun people" in that they don't shoot regularly, but they still know what they're doing with a firearm. My agency requires a minimum firearm qualification that exceeds the State minimum standard. We have given conditional offers to candidates who just could not qualify to our standard and they had to be released.


On this topic I also think it appropriate to note that while some officers may not train to a standard of proficiency that many would deem appropriate here on TFL, they do have an advantage to a degree. Officers that work a rough beat and are often placed in stressful situations have a stress tolerance far higher than the average person. After all they got in 4 or 5 foot chases and a couple of fights over the past month. So while some skilled static shooters may shoot far better than an officer that doesn't practice very often, that officer is far more accustomed to stress and may perform much better in a life or death situation than the skilled static shooter. Note that I am not describing every officer with that statement though. The guys that hang their hat on writing tickets to the morning and evening commuters don't usually face a ton of stress, at least not routinely. Coincidentally those ticket writers in my experience are also often not gun people. Those are the officers that worry me with firearms proficiency.
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Old November 24, 2019, 11:41 AM   #34
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I know very little actually about LE firearms training. Friend in Montana years ago on the State Patrol that didn't like shooting. Only gun he owned was his service revolver! He told me the only time it's ever out of the holster is at yearly qualifying, which he generally flubbed the first time. I spent eight years in the Air Force, three of those years oversea's. While there I got to work on our support base's rifle range. Generally speaking, if we had to depend on the Air Force to defend us with firearms that don't fly, we're gonna get our butt's kicked. Once a year qualification and, especially higher ranking NCO's, I'm surprised they live through a couple hours at the range, they are normally, terrible with any type firearm. Doesn't surprise me to read the LE agency's are not a lot different. But in their line of work, a firearm can save a life, even their own and still cops that basically can't shoot. They only reason they are a cop is at the time they needed a job I think! Especially in LE I think a huge effort should be put into firearms training, it could save someone's life, maybe their's! Those cops that do take the time and make an effort. If it never save's anyone's life but your own, it's worth the effort! Long as I'm on the prod let me attack something even worse. Over weight cops. It is not reassuring to me to see a grossly overweight cop that most likely lacks the ability to defend himself physically. Unbelievable how many overweight cop's I see out there. The appearance of a cop should reassure everyone in the area!

I recall years ago in New York City I stopped in a small store for something. While I ws there a silent alarm went off. As I went out two NYC cops walked in the door and shoved me back into the store. While waiting to see what was going on, I noticed the firearm of one cop. It was so rusted I doubt it would have fired if he needed it to. Not what I'd call confidence inspiring! To those other cops out there that keep in shape and actually know how to use their guns and care for them, I hope you realize I'm not lumping you in with these other's. Police force's should be run like special force's units! The sight of a police officer should inspire a certain amount of confidence!
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Old November 24, 2019, 12:04 PM   #35
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I know very little actually about LE firearms training. Friend in Montana years ago on the State Patrol that didn't like shooting. Only gun he owned was his service revolver! He told me the only time it's ever out of the holster is at yearly qualifying, which he generally flubbed the first time. I spent eight years in the Air Force, three of those years oversea's. While there I got to work on our support base's rifle range. Generally speaking, if we had to depend on the Air Force to defend us with firearms that don't fly, we're gonna get our butt's kicked. Once a year qualification and, especially higher ranking NCO's, I'm surprised they live through a couple hours at the range, they are normally, terrible with any type firearm. Doesn't surprise me to read the LE agency's are not a lot different. But in their line of work, a firearm can save a life, even their own and still cops that basically can't shoot. They only reason they are a cop is at the time they needed a job I think! Especially in LE I think a huge effort should be put into firearms training, it could save someone's life, maybe their's! Those cops that do take the time and make an effort. If it never save's anyone's life but your own, it's worth the effort! Long as I'm on the prod let me attack something even worse. Over weight cops. It is not reassuring to me to see a grossly overweight cop that most likely lacks the ability to defend himself physically. Unbelievable how many overweight cop's I see out there. The appearance of a cop should reassure everyone in the area!

I recall years ago in New York City I stopped in a small store for something. While I ws there a silent alarm went off. As I went out two NYC cops walked in the door and shoved me back into the store. While waiting to see what was going on, I noticed the firearm of one cop. It was so rusted I doubt it would have fired if he needed it to. Not what I'd call confidence inspiring! To those other cops out there that keep in shape and actually know how to use their guns and care for them, I hope you realize I'm not lumping you in with these other's. Police force's should be run like special force's units! The sight of a police officer should inspire a certain amount of confidence!
the majority of figuring stuff out, solving crimes, setting up the bad guys getting the goods needed for a search warrant can be done by an overweight old lady chain smoker; and that's because it takes brains not brawn. street cops are the ones you might be referring to as the need to stay fit in your view.
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Old November 24, 2019, 12:15 PM   #36
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the majority of figuring stuff out, solving crimes, setting up the bad guys getting the goods needed for a search warrant can be done by an overweight old lady chain smoker; and that's because it takes brains not brawn. street cops are the ones you might be referring to as the need to stay fit in your view.
I think you'd notice in the military even the desk clerks are required to stay n shape. Reason for that. Never know when they'll have to pick up a gun and shoot back! I would not have a word to say about the over weight officer's had I never seen them on the street in the first place. Our LE agency's should inspire confidence when we see them.
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Old November 24, 2019, 12:18 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Don Fischer View Post
I know very little actually about LE firearms training. Friend in Montana years ago on the State Patrol that didn't like shooting. Only gun he owned was his service revolver! He told me the only time it's ever out of the holster is at yearly qualifying, which he generally flubbed the first time. I spent eight years in the Air Force, three of those years oversea's. While there I got to work on our support base's rifle range. Generally speaking, if we had to depend on the Air Force to defend us with firearms that don't fly, we're gonna get our butt's kicked. Once a year qualification and, especially higher ranking NCO's, I'm surprised they live through a couple hours at the range, they are normally, terrible with any type firearm. Doesn't surprise me to read the LE agency's are not a lot different. But in their line of work, a firearm can save a life, even their own and still cops that basically can't shoot. They only reason they are a cop is at the time they needed a job I think! Especially in LE I think a huge effort should be put into firearms training, it could save someone's life, maybe their's! Those cops that do take the time and make an effort. If it never save's anyone's life but your own, it's worth the effort! Long as I'm on the prod let me attack something even worse. Over weight cops. It is not reassuring to me to see a grossly overweight cop that most likely lacks the ability to defend himself physically. Unbelievable how many overweight cop's I see out there. The appearance of a cop should reassure everyone in the area!



I recall years ago in New York City I stopped in a small store for something. While I ws there a silent alarm went off. As I went out two NYC cops walked in the door and shoved me back into the store. While waiting to see what was going on, I noticed the firearm of one cop. It was so rusted I doubt it would have fired if he needed it to. Not what I'd call confidence inspiring! To those other cops out there that keep in shape and actually know how to use their guns and care for them, I hope you realize I'm not lumping you in with these other's. Police force's should be run like special force's units! The sight of a police officer should inspire a certain amount of confidence!
If you're expecting law enforcement to be on par with special operations, you're both being a bit idealistic and unrealistic imo. Be prepared to be disappointed.

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Old November 24, 2019, 07:47 PM   #38
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I've worked on a few law enforcement agencies as a sworn peace officer and I was a sergeant in the Marine Corps. The comment regarding expectations that law enforcement be on par with military special operations gave me a giggle.
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Old November 26, 2019, 06:01 PM   #39
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Question then..in Police departments..are 'issued' guns kept by the LEO? Or do they keep them at the department, put them on when they get to work? Are they kept in an armory or in the person's 'locker'? For this essential 'tool' for the LEO, are they inspected, tested by somebody to make sure they work? The above seems like a traffic cop in a car that wouldn't start..
I would think it would be in the department's best interest to make sure these 'tools' are in good working order..even if the officer doesn't care..
The 2 departments/agencies I worked for our issue gun was essentially yours except when you left you turned it in and could not modify it besides grips.
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Old November 27, 2019, 08:24 AM   #40
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The 2 departments/agencies I worked for our issue gun was essentially yours except when you left you turned it in and could not modify it besides grips.
When you 'turned it in', was it inspected, cleaned by somebody? If you had to turn it in when you left, how did you clean it?
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Old November 28, 2019, 07:09 PM   #41
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When I turned in the guns that belonged to the departments/agencies I was leaving they (the guns) were already clean. I always cleaned my guns after using them and if not recently used at various intervals between use. If they weren't then inspected after being returned, shame on them.
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Old December 17, 2019, 03:40 AM   #42
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I've worked for one agency full time and three agencies part time in my career (which is almost 40 years)

When I first started, we all went to the Sheriff's Dept range once a month and shot some kind of PPC type qual course that involved shooting from 7 to 25 yards. The courses of fire were all 50 rounds. We had to shoot a minimum of 9 times in a year (450 rounds -- if you shot every month you shot 600 rnds in a year)

After a few years we switched to having a full day of inservice training each quarter. About half of each day was shooting. We shot 60 to 100 rnds of handgun each time. With the M870 shotgun, it was always 5 00 buckshot on steel targets, 5 slugs on paper targets and 10 rounds of bird shot, sometimes on clay pigeons and sometimes on steel targets. When we replaced the shotguns with AR-15 pattern rifles, we usually shot 30 to 50 rounds each training session. The off-duty gun course required 30 rounds and you had to qual with any off duty guns once a calendar year.

I myself shoot 250 rounds a month in practice with my duty gun (currently a Glock 22). I occasionally shoot in local USPSA and IDPA matches and try to go to one or two shooting classes a year.

I have .22 conversions for many of my guns and the .22s get used a lot indoors in the winter.

Most of the cops I have worked with over the years NEVER shoot in practice. A few were/are diligent and shoot 50 or 100 rounds in practice before each quarterly training session, but they are in the minority.

Generally we do training with Simunitions FX rounds or Air Soft guns about once a year, but we haven't done any of that in the last several years. We are over-due for active shooter response training.

We got ballistic shields a few years ago, and usually train with them once a year and probably shoot 30 rounds while doing so.
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Old December 27, 2019, 11:19 AM   #43
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I just retired a year ago. At that time individual officers did 200 rounds of practice and 50 of qualification every 8 weeks for a total of about 1500 a year (pistol). They only did rifle and shotgun qual once a year running about 150 rounds through each at that time.

At the agency I just left you were prohibited from practicing with duty weapon on personal time, which I thought was silly but most officers just owned an identical gun to practice with on their own time. A couple folks didn’t. There were also the “bad kids” who somehow always called in sick on range day but they were a small group. They’d ride it out as long as they could until range staff would desk them until they qualified.

On the flip side, one local agency we worked with a lot had what I thought was a cool practice of if you wanted to practice off duty, with your own ammo, you could bill up to 4 hours of overtime a month for your range time.
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Old December 28, 2019, 01:38 PM   #44
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At that time individual officers did 200 rounds of practice and 50 of qualification every 8 weeks for a total of about 1500 a year (pistol).
Highly unusual but not unwelcome at all to see. Obviously your department went well over and above what the state requirements for Peace Officer Firearms Qualifications.

California only requires a single qualification unless you take more than a 3 year break.

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The Firearms component includes a firearms range qualification examination.
Quote:
An exercise test developed by POST that specifically prescribes the PC832/Module III course of fire, which requires student to demonstrate basic handgun shooting principles under daylight conditions.
Using a presenter-approved handgun, the student must:
Fire 36 rounds of service ammunition and
• Achieve a minimum score of 29 hits in the 7-ring on a
• B-27 single target
The PC832 Handgun Course of Fire:
• 12 rounds must be fired from a distance of 3 yards in 30 seconds
• 12 rounds must be fired from a distance of 7 yards in 30 seconds
• 12 rounds must be fired from a distance of 15 yards in 45 seconds
The student is required to tactically load and reload the handgun using the loading device authorized by the presenter and successfully clear any malfunctions that may occur during the course of fire.
https://post.ca.gov/pc-832-arrest-and-firearms-course

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California Penal Code (PC) Section 832(e) requires individuals who previously completed a California PC 832 Arrest and Firearms Course to "requalify" prior to exercising peace officer powers if they:

Have not been employed as a California peace officer within three years of the course completion date, or
Have a three-year or longer break in service as a California peace officer.
https://post.ca.gov/pc-832-arrest--f...equalification

Glad to see a Department going above and beyond as well as a community willing to fit the bill to achieve a higher level of proficiency than required by the state.
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Old January 2, 2020, 01:45 PM   #45
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1- How many training and Qualification rounds a year do you shoot for and through your agency?

Qual: 25
Dept Trg: 0


2- If you are on a special team such as Sniper/ Swat/ High Risk Apprehension etc do you shoot additional rounds and if so how many training/ qualification/ competition?

Not any longer

3. How often does your agency conduct live firearm training per year?

1

4. If you shoot training rounds such as sims out of your regular duty weapons how much of that do you do on an annual basis?

0

5. What is your round count annually on either your service weapon or similar/ same type weapon on your own time, with your provided ammo?

10k
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Old January 3, 2020, 08:18 PM   #46
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5. What is your round count annually on either your service weapon or similar/ same type weapon on your own time, with your provided ammo?

10k
That is a significant expense on an Patrolman's salary. It is sad that Departments spend so little on such an important aspect of protecting both the officer and the public.

Thanks for what you are doing! KUDOS!
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Old January 6, 2020, 07:48 AM   #47
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When you 'turned it in', was it inspected, cleaned by somebody? If you had to turn it in when you left, how did you clean it?
Inspected yes, cleaned no. My last issue weapon was an H&K P2000 and I was an agency armorer. How did I clean it? The same way I always cleaned it. Actually, mine was sent in for disposal, also using the pistol for competition I had just over 15,000 rounds of duty 155 grain JHP's (40 S&W) and the pistol had reached its service life, to where the groups were starting to open significantly.
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Old January 6, 2020, 08:13 AM   #48
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I had just over 15,000 rounds of duty 155 grain JHP's (40 S&W) and the pistol had reached its service life, to where the groups were starting to open significantly.
Thanks for the info but 'only' 15,000 rounds? Seems low plus couldn't they just get a new barrel?

Or a Glock?...

tee-hee
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Old January 6, 2020, 09:28 AM   #49
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Thanks for the info but 'only' 15,000 rounds?
It is a range. Quoting a few outliers does not change that fact.

It is generally the recoil spring assembly that wears out not the barrel. Service contract usually involves the weapons returning at a specific point to higher level maintenance for repair/refurbishment.

Quote:
There were no stoppages or breakages to report, and barring something unexpected happening in the final stretch it appears the HK45 is going to finish the 50,000 round endurance test with a fantastic record.
http://pistol-training.com/archives/3915

Quote:
91,322 rounds 13 stoppages, 0 malfunctions, 5 parts breakages test ended at: 91,622 rounds At 91,300 rounds, the P30 was running strong. Even after a chunk went missing from the frame, the gun had turned in well over five thousand rounds of accurate and reliable service. I carried it every day. By 91,322 however, ...
Quote:
In 91,322 rounds, the gun was only cleaned fifteen times — once going over 12,000 rounds between cleanings. It was rarely lubed more often than once every 4-5,000 rounds. Multiple days per week it was subjected to consecutive hours of high volume rapid fire practice that often made the gun too hot to touch.
http://pistol-training.com/archives/2668

It is a range....

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Old January 29, 2020, 01:20 AM   #50
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In Illinois, it's a 30 round course, once a year. 12 from 3, 12 from 7 and 6 from 15. There is no movement, cover/concealment or night time requirements.

That said, some agencies have stricter agency only requirements.

Me personally, besides the required yearly qualification, I take as many shooting classes as I can. I also shoot on my own as often as I can. I probably shoot around 3k rounds a year on my own. No where near that in formal training.
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