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Old September 22, 2020, 09:35 PM   #51
burbank_jung
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I don't know of those except the .357 which is not a semi-auto. Yes, those will do better for hunting but I don't own anything chambered for them.
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Old September 22, 2020, 09:47 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by COSteve View Post
Thicker than a human's skin which pretty much includes every 4 legged animal out in the woods. That's the 'thicker skinned' I was referring to because the .45acp was developed as an anti personnel round rather than hunting round.
Actually, .45 ACP was designed to duplicate the performance of the U.S. Army's "Model of 1887 Ball Cartridge for Cal. .45 Revolver", (Basically .45 S&W Schofield) which was a round designed for the cavalry with downing horses as well as men in mind.
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Old September 23, 2020, 12:10 AM   #53
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relevance

I worked for quite a few years as one of those rural LE types. While I never had large dangerous bears or cats to deal with, I did have occasion to shoot a lot of different wild and domestic critters as feral, diseased or injured after some type of accident. I was never much impressed with the killing power of the various handguns in .38+P+, 9mm or .45acp that I was issued over the years. The best performing "killer" may have been the .357/125 that we carried for a handful of years before switching over to autopistols/ctgs. It was also noisy as all get out, flashed like an atomic device, and was a handful (too much gun) for about a third of the staff nationwide (my estimate).

If the animal was already down, it usually was a simple matter to approach to certain range, and brain it. Until HQ/Region got really picky about unauthorized weapons, myself and many others carried a "barn gun" .22lr rifle just for such purposes. Most Wardens and WCO's of my acquaintance over the years did the same thing. If the circumstances were known that an animal call involved a threat, say vicious feral dogs, a hog, maybe even a bull, you got out of the vehicle with a long gun, usually in those days a shotgun with slugs or buckshot. Until we got patrol carbines, my shotgun had slugs in it.

As much as I like(d) the .45 acp cartridge for patrol at that time (1995 forward) claiming it as a better animal cartridge does not match my observations and experience. I believe magnum handgun cartridges hold a slight edge, starting with the .357, and gaining advantage as bore size and weight increase. But as horsepower goes up, shootability goes down.
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Old September 23, 2020, 12:40 AM   #54
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Bamaranger. Nice post, thank you. Does it make a difference whether the .357 is a 4" or 6" or maybe even a 2-1/2"?
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Old September 23, 2020, 02:35 AM   #55
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I don't know of those except the .357 which is not a semi-auto.
I have two different semi auto pistols in .357 Magnum, a Coonan and a Desert Eagle, and had two different ones in .44 Rem Mag, a Desert Eagle and an LAR Grizzly until I traded the Grizzly .44 for one in .45 Win Mag.

There are semi auto pistols for those two "revolver" cartridges.

The .45 Win Mag is essentially the .45acp lengthened to 1.198" and operating at a much higher pressure and has data showing it will push a 230gr to over 1,400fps from a 5" barrel.

The AMP (Auto Mag Pistol) rounds are based on a .308 rifle case cut to 1.298" and reamed to fit the bullet. At full throttle the .44AMP beats the .44 Magnum by about 100fps and the .357 AMP is the .44AMP case necked down, and beats the .357 Magnum by as much a 500fps or so.

Both appeared in the early 70s and never found commercial success and have been a handloader only proposition for decades.

Plenty for hunting big game.

The .45acp was never intended to be a hunting round though it will do a credible job within its limitations. It was specifically intended for putting down humans and dispatching wounded horses, and for that, it works quite well, if the shooter does their part properly.

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I believe magnum handgun cartridges hold a slight edge, starting with the .357, and gaining advantage as bore size and weight increase. But as horsepower goes up, shootability goes down.
I believe this also, but would question how you define "shootability".

Something to consider, with the current "9mm does it all" mantra, the original 9mm Luger load was a 124gr @ 1050fps (4") Shortly before WWI that was changed to a 115gr @ 1150fps. You can get [email protected] 1150fps today, but no one with a choice is using them for self defense.

There has been a LOT of work put into the 9mm round in the past 40 years. Bullets have gotten better and velocity has been increased, some loads today go over 1,300fps.

The .45ACP is still doing what it always has, and at the same speeds and while better bullets and higher speed loads are out there, those never seem to be considered when 9mm fans discuss the two rounds.

I don't see where that makes it an less relevant today than it ever was.
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Old September 23, 2020, 11:49 PM   #56
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"shootability"

OK, that's my own term, maybe I just invented it. What I am trying to describe is a cartridge and handgun combo that allows accurate and rapid fire across a wide span of skill levels. Thus, a .22lr semiauto handgun is very "shootable", but a .500 S&W is not. Recoil, flash and blast are the contributing factors determining the level of shootability. Certainly skill level of the individual matters. Jerry Miculek can outshoot us all with about anything he can put his hands on, but few are at that level.

The all up .357 mag revolver cartridges begins to approach the "shootable" limit (in my estimation) of what rank and file LEO's can manage. The .41 and .44 mags more so. I saw it when my agency went to true .357 loads after shooting .38's for years. The FBI saw it when they went to full power 10mm, and we ended up with the 10mmLite and eventually the .40 S&W. We are likely seeing it to some degree with the across the board adoption of the 9mm by LE led by the Bureau today. The 9mm is a very "shootable" cartridge. I think the .45acp is slightly less shootable than the 9mm, but ahead of all up .357.

I like the .45acp. Carried it, and still carry it, though in a different platform. No way consider it irrelevant. But the 9mm is a bit more shootable for some folks.
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Old September 24, 2020, 01:12 AM   #57
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44 AMP. You have a lot of toys. Most of the handguns I chose was because I accumulated so much brass and needed a gun for it.

Bamaranger. I'm with you. Full charge .357 loads are about my threshold. Maybe other guys can shoot larger handguns and that's fine. The 9mm is more shootable so maybe you can put more holes in the Bad Guy so they bleed out quicker or you have a better chance of hitting vital organs? I don't know. Sometimes, I compare a gun to shovel or some other tool. I'll use whatever to defend myself if I have to. Maybe comparing the 9mm to the 45 is like comparing a numb chuck (in good hands) to a baseball bat. Which do you prefer to get hit by.
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Old September 24, 2020, 03:30 AM   #58
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44 AMP. You have a lot of toys.
Is that "toys" = good, or "toys" = bad?

I have more than just service class semi autos, and I use them for more than just defensive shooting practice.

And, now, I understand your definition of shootability includes rapid fire, and what most people can do, thank you for clearing that up, Bamaranger.

Quote:
But the 9mm is a bit more shootable for some folks.
I hear this a lot, and it has always baffled me a bit. Which doesn't mean it isn't so, I just never understood it, as I cannot tell any significant difference between shooting the 9mm and the .45 in guns of the same size and weight. In my hands, both guns feel about the same in recoil, muzzle rise is the same, though the 9mm seems to me to reach the peak of its flip a little quicker than the .45 does.

Perhaps I'm just not skilled enough to tell the difference.

Another point I would mention, when discussing the merits and capabilities of different cartridges that is often overlooked, is the GUNS being used.

Different designs have different feels and people handle that differently. OR, at least I do. I had one 9mm with possibly the worst "shootability" around. Way less easily usable than any .45 I've had, And it the recoil was actually painful. THAT 9mm wasn't more "shootable" than a .45.

care to guess what it was??

I'll give a hint, it had a 4" barrel and a 10 rnd magazine...external hammer and is long out of production...


TO my way of thinking, its not just about the cartridge, its also about what gun it is being used in.
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Old September 24, 2020, 11:50 AM   #59
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44 AMP. Yes, you're skilled..

I won't guess. You toy shop more than me..
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Old September 24, 2020, 01:05 PM   #60
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I've been fortunate in that I've had about every handgun I've ever been seriously interested in, along with a lot that just kind of "happened by and stayed".

I also have a problem with broad blanket statements (when I don't make them, ) that have exceptions which I am personally familiar with.

The "poor shootability" 9mm I had was...(brace yourself..)

A C-96 Broomhandle Mauser Bolo
(rebored to 9mm Luger)

Grip size, and shape and a large metal slot in the back made it painful to shoot without a glove. Overall balance and handling were very poor, compared to more "conventional" designs. Really neat looking "period piece" but a very poor handgun for practical use (without the shoulder stock).

Other "poor" 9mm pistols I've had have been the Cobray M11/9 and the Tec-9. SMG lookalikes cool to look at and crappy to shoot. My other 9mms include P.08 Lugers, Walther P.38 (WWII guns) and a Browning Hi Power. All these and others are included when someone makes a blanket statement about 9mms this or that.

What you might get from a 9mm Glock isn't what I get from my P.08 Luger.

They aren't all the same.
The specific guns matter, and probably more than the cartridge fired from them, if you are speaking of the common "Duty Class" defense/military/police arms.
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Old September 24, 2020, 03:08 PM   #61
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I am very impressed with this thread. A new spin on the caliber wars. Didn’t think it could be done.
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Old September 24, 2020, 03:31 PM   #62
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One of the first advice I give when someone asks me about a particular handgun is to see how well it fits in your hand. Guns are like shoes to me. Everyone's hands are different. I shake my head when the Glock Lovers jump up and say Glock is "thee" handgun. It's the same in reloading when W231/HP38 comes up.
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Old September 25, 2020, 10:33 AM   #63
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And yeah, regular 45 acp wouldn't be no good for thick skinned fare, but 45 Super out of that long slide G21 of yours would be a mini hand cannon, definitely do the job for anything in our area and maybe bigger (a few Alaskans tout it).
Actually, I've found that it's not as impressive as I'd hoped. In fact, the 45 Super was a disappointment without adding a fair sized muzzle brake to my pistol.

You see, I've shot 45 Super out of my G21L as well but with disappointing results for me. The problem is that without a muzzle brake, a 200grn Speer Gold Dot bullet at 1,307fps is about as far as I can push the 45 Super in my pistol because the recoil is significantly higher than the 10mm's. I've also tried 230grn bullets but the recoil is even more severe. So heavy that I'm concerned about battering the frame and slide and destroying my pistol. In fact, I was so concerned that, while I loaded up 100rds of 45 Super, I've only ever shot 15 of them.

I was very surprised at that situation because shooting either a 165 or 180grn 'nuclear' level load 10mm load out of my G20L (which if you remember, is the same gun with just a different barrel and mags) produces a surprisingly soft recoil even with my hottest 10mm loads. So soft that a few who've I let shoot it with my 'nuclear' loads are almost disappointed because they expected a 'fire breathing monster' type recoil when they see the chrono results before they shoot it.

A neighbor I shoot with who owns both a G20 and G29 has also shot my 'nuclear' 165grn loads in his pistols and agrees they are a handful in either his G20 or 29 but when he shoots them in my G20L with it's 4.75oz heavier slide and barrel, he can't believe how soft the recoil is and how comfortable they are to shoot. He also agrees the balance of the pistol is better as well.

However, when I let him shoot a few .45 Super loads in my G21L, he agreed that the recoil is significantly higher than the 165grn 10mm (the higher of the 165 and 180). In fact, he was quite surprised as the 45 Super loads aren't anywhere near 'nuclear' level as my 10mm loads are. We both agree that the 10mm loads are both a strong push while the 45 Super load is more of a strong jolt.

Yes, a muzzle brake with the 45 Super loads would allow for a hotter load and the use of heavier bullets, but I don't see the practicality of a muzzle brake on a pistol just to shoot 45 Super as it isn't necessary with my 10mm. Besides, to produce more muzzle energy than my 165grn 10mm loads we'd be talking a 230grn 45 Super at 1,375fps and that would produce a significant increase in recoil over the 200grn loads with even more battering potential.

And the worst part of the difference isn't the recoil. It's that the .45 Super loads produce less muzzle energy. I'm using the same platform and the same powder, Power Pistol, and nearly the same bullet weights but the muzzle energy the 45 Super produced was a disappointment to me.

The chrono data I generated at my range which is located at 6,100ft above sea level on an 84°, sunny day shows that the 10mm produces significantly higher muzzle energy (ME) than the 45 Super because of it's much higher velocities.

10mm:
165grn Gold Dots: 1,589fps producing 925ft/lbs ME
180grn Gold Dots: 1,479fps producing 874ft/lbs ME

45 Super:
200grn Gold Dots: 1,307fps producing 759ft/lbs ME

That's 166ft/lbs more ME for the 165grn 10mm and 115ft/lbs more ME for the 180grn 10mm than the 45 Super.

Finally, with both calibers sighted in at 100yds, the 165grn 10mm is a flatter shooting load as one would expect, with a drop of 8" less at 200yds than the 200grn 45 Super. And yes, I shoot my 10mm pistol with iron sights at steel plates at 200yds routinely.

It's quite fun to step up to the line after someone with a scoped AK stops shooting at the steel plate and missing a few shots, and raise my pistol up with it's iron sights and fire at the same plate and ring it over and over again. (All I need do is aim at the top of the plate and the bullet will strike the plate a bit below center. It's actually quite simple.)
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Old September 25, 2020, 10:39 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by burbank_jung View Post
One of the first advice I give when someone asks me about a particular handgun is to see how well it fits in your hand. Guns are like shoes to me. Everyone's hands are different. I shake my head when the Glock Lovers jump up and say Glock is "thee" handgun. It's the same in reloading when W231/HP38 comes up.
I couldn't agree more. I have long, thin fingers and a large palm and so even with a Hogue Handal and a Grip Force Adapter on my G20/21L, the grip for me isn't too big for me to touch the first knuckle of my middle finger with my thumb. (A simple test to see how well your hand fits the grip.)

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Old September 25, 2020, 10:50 AM   #65
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BTW, in the post above, I mentioned I had a Grip Force Adapter on my G20/21L. The reason I use one is not for 'slide bite' but rather I noticed that when switching between my 1911s and Glocks, that I'd present muzzle high with the Glock after shooting my 1911s.

I compared the grips and found that while they are the same angle on the front, the Glocks have a much deeper taper at the top backstrap than do the 1911s so by adding a Grip Force Adapter under my Hogue Handal, I've filled in the taper so the Glock's grip now closely matches my 1911s.

You can see the difference in the backstrap angle between my G20/21L with the Grip Force Adapter and my G23 without one.

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Old September 25, 2020, 12:46 PM   #66
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It’s all about selling guns.

That’s not entirely true, but it’s a lot of what is going on.

There is also “you’re going to carry this thing around for YEARS and probably never use it, so wouldn’t it be nice if it weighed less?”

Once everyone has a Glock 19, and since they last a long long time (see “never use it”, above) maybe you need to push .40 caliber and sell a bunch of those.

Now that the .40 fad has run it’s course... my, they bark and kick, let’s go back to 9mm... but maybe make them smaller and easier to conceal! Let’s sell those a while.

Wait, let’s make it about capacity! What we sold 3 years ago is no longer all the rage! More bullets!

Do you think we can sell more if we put electronic optics (red dots) on em? They really do improve practical accuracy... Errr... hmmm, we don’t seem to be making money with optics...

Here is a shocker for ya- a solid .38 special revolver built almost 100 years ago is still an effective firearm. Is it “the best”? Best for what? Is a 32-20 revolver so hopelessly outdated as to be useless?

My latest favorite is 32 H&R Magnum in a long barrel revolver. It’s absolutely a joy to shoot although I confess to hot-rodding it considerably as I feel it’s safe to do in my Ruger (based on much reporting and experimentation as people attempted .327 level pressure with only rare failure and I am a country mile from those pressures)

Shootability is real. I have met only a few top competition shooters that could not improve their scores by using a .22.

Whatever happened to bullseye shooting? Is shooting at steel plates, spraying lead particles all over the range and dropping expensive magazines in the gravel more fun than slowly aiming and picking the antennae off of flies at 50 yards? Maybe, but it sure sells more guns and ammo.

Here is a secret: I used to own a Glock 22 long slide, all customized to race. At least 2 trigger jobs on it attempting to make something out of that sow’s ear. Two years fussing with it. Meh. Pointless. Because I had a nice 1911. I had the skills to handle the recoil and I shot so much better with the 1911. But if you want a big boom, big bore revolvers are a much bigger boom. The Glock is long gone, I never regret trading it. The 1911 is gone, sometimes I think about getting another, easy to get another. The Freedom Arms .454? That was a real beauty but not quite as nice as a custom Ruger Blackhawk... which can not be replaced. Bowen doesn’t do mundane .44 magnums any longer.

Then I stumbled on a pristine Single Six in .32 H&R magnum. The only thing I could imagine better is the one with the conversion cylinder to .32-20 but really... that’s just snobbery. What if you could have a center fire pistol that shot like a .22? They should sell like hot cakes, right??

Nope. Because marketing works and what we buy is based much on fantasy and little on reality.
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Old September 25, 2020, 01:13 PM   #67
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10mm Glock 20SF is the answer. (15 + 1)
If under a 10 round limit, then a 1911 in 10mm or Glock 29SF

However, a Glock 21SF (13 + 1) is also not a bad choice.
And if under a 10 round limit, then the 30SF or 1911 in 45 acp.
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Old September 25, 2020, 04:04 PM   #68
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"10mm Glock 20SF is the answer. (15 + 1)"

As much as I love my various big bore revolvers and my Sig 220 .45... the above statement actually makes allot of sense. Reliable gun and a wicked potent caliber advocated by the guru himself! Grew up reading Cooper... LOVE the guy!
Now I suppose I'll have to get one... a Glock 20!!! Just what I need... another damn gun!
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Old September 25, 2020, 09:45 PM   #69
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Yes, but getting back to the original question, is the 9mm inadequate for the rural folks if the options are 9mm and .45. Maybe the choice of bullets helps. I think that the Speer expands well in a water medium and probably good for soft skin things like people while the XTP might be better for thicker skin things like animals.
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Old September 26, 2020, 05:27 AM   #70
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It comes down to RECOIL sensitivity (FLINCHING!!). Most people can be trained to shoot 9mm easier than larger, more powerful and effective weapons as it has less recoil. Larger Departments have to worry about pushing people through yearly qualifications and since many new recruits of both genders have ZERO experience with firearms, the 9mm is more user friendly. Officers are often hired now based on education and equal opportunity requirements / quotas set forth by Personel department rules and NOT hired as in the past, on physical size, strength, personality and experience. Not saying some of the "new" hires don't turn out well over time, as many do. I know a few personally.
But generally speaking... hiring a 5'1", 145 pound 43 year old female with a Master's degree and a background in social work, INSTEAD of a muscular 25 year old 6', 195 pound male who did 6 years in the Marines... to patrol the streets and enforce the law, often without immediate backup... well, as a Taxpayer and active observer... I seriously question that logic.
That is another subject altogether, but does play into the topic of discussion as it is THE reason the 9mm has been adopted by so many agency's. And what is popular and utilized by Police Departments usually is depicted in the news and entertainment industry and quickly becomes entrenched in the popular culture.
.40 (or .45, etc.), caliber bullets fired out of a polymer frame weapon recoil FAR more than a 9mm out of a similar weapon.
With the improved 9mm bonded ammo available in recent years, such as Speer Gold DOT 124 HP'S (which most Departments, including mine, issue), the 9mm has become the logical choice for Administrators. Almost everyone qualifies, no complaints of discrimination, no grievances. Politics at play.
It's why the FBI moved away from the potent 10mm years ago... less recoil and better qual scores. Some Agents just couldn't handle the recoil of the powerful cartridge.
Rural folks who may be worried about aggressive animals on 4 legs as well as self defense against 2 legged predators,
should pick whatever caliber they can shoot accurately. Shot placement is the secret. If they can handle recoil and shoot well, then there are bigger and far more effective calibers to chose from than just the 9mm. The .45 acp is still one of those options.

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Old September 26, 2020, 01:49 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COSteve:
I mentioned I had a Grip Force Adapter on my G20/21L. The reason I use one is not for 'slide bite' but rather I noticed that when switching between my 1911s and Glocks, that I'd present muzzle high with the Glock after shooting my 1911s.

I compared the grips and found that while they are the same angle on the front, the Glocks have a much deeper taper at the top backstrap than do the 1911s so by adding a Grip Force Adapter under my Hogue Handal, I've filled in the taper so the Glock's grip now closely matches my 1911s.

You can see the difference in the backstrap angle between my G20/21L with the Grip Force Adapter and my G23 without one.
I have the Grip Force Adapters on my Gen3 17 and 19, and I use the large beavertail backstraps that came in the box with my 19X and my Gen4 21. I had a problem with slide bite with the Gen3’s and the Gen4, I put the BT backstrap on the 19X when I first got it. I have Hogue Handall grip sleeves on the Gen3 17 and the 19X, and Pachmayr Grip Gloves on the Gen3 19 and the Gen4 21.

After a lot of trial & error and range time, I have no doubt in my mind that these guns set up this way point better to a target. For me at least. I’ve definitely “uglied up” these guns but I don’t care, if I decide to sell off any of these, I can switch them back to stock, but as long as I keep & shoot these, they will stay this way. Anybody else’s mileage may vary, and that is also fine.
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Old September 27, 2020, 12:21 PM   #72
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the 9mm has become the logical choice for Administrators. Almost everyone qualifies, no complaints of discrimination, no grievances. Politics at play.
Quote:
It’s all about selling guns.
I think these two ideas go a long way in explaining the popularity of the 9mm Luger today.

Also explains why so much work has been put into improving the "street performance" of the 9mm round.

Also covers the downloading of the .357 Magnum, but that's a topic for its own thread, I think.

Point is, the "pressure" to use the 9mm, because MOST people do better or are more easily trained with it than other calibers is a factor, if you are arming a group of people. Particularly a diverse group of people.

SO, yes, by the numbers, the 9mm is a better choice for organizations. This does not mean it is the best choice possible for use, only that it works well enough for more people.

It doesn't mean it is the best choice for any specific individual. What the cops choose (or more realistically, what gets chosen for them..) and what the military does, for their own good reasons does not mean that is the best choice for ME, or perhaps for you.

I'm not a cop, never was, and not going to be, and long past my military days. My requirements for performance, both of the cartridge and he gun, are mine, and no one else's.

How things work for me, in my hands are what determines, for me, whether or not something is "relevant".

I'm perfectly happy to be the last lemming on the cliff, waving goodbye to all those who jumped, without feeling any need to follow them...
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Old September 27, 2020, 03:17 PM   #73
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Agree with Steve. Fit is important. Told my female cousin that (she's petite but able to qualify with the M9 in service). Don't buy a gun unless it fits and is comfortable to handle. It does no good if it's the best gun in a movie or recommendation of a gunwriter or counter-commando if it doesn't work for the individual.
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Old September 27, 2020, 03:53 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shurshot View Post
... Most people can be trained to shoot 9mm easier than larger, more powerful and effective weapons as it has less recoil. Larger Departments have to worry about ...
This mirrors what I hear from friends in law enforcement.

I think at the end of the day, 9mm is at least "okay" for most of our emergency defensive needs around town. Having mostly lived in rural and semi-rural edge-of-town places, I've put a lot of thought into animal needs. My defensive ammo in 9mm should be fine for coyotes, which are the most likely aggressors.

I don't see much in the way of black bear or moose but I don't get out to the woods like I used to. The biggest animals I see every day are deer. They have very little fear of humans and get closer than they should but I can't imagine one attacking. The only time I imagine myself shooting one of our yard deer is if they are severely injured and need putting down or the grocery store runs out of food.

Overall, I feel better with .40 S&W but 9mm is probably okay.
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Old September 27, 2020, 07:42 PM   #75
burbank_jung
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Join Date: December 5, 2019
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Possibly a snap cap can be loaded in a magazine of .40s or .45s with factory loads. I introduce my .357 with dry firing, .38s, .38s with an empty chamber, .38 with a .357, .357, and .357 to .38. All of this is to remind the shooter to relax and not anticipate the recoil. Seeing the front sight jerk down upon pulling the trigger on an empty chamber is an unspoken reminder to the shooter to do so.
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