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Old September 2, 2020, 05:45 PM   #1
tomthecat
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Recoil enabled training gun

I want to dry fire at home, and setup my own "electronic" range. I got a projector and use it with this one: dryfireonline.com. Works fine.

Now, I don't want a laser bullet, I want something with recoil. I found this one from Laser Ammo, but as they write "and recoil that simulates about 30%-40% of live ammo training."

Are there any training guns, that can simulate 100% recoil of a 9mm?
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Old September 2, 2020, 11:03 PM   #2
dyl
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To use the words of the website, I have what might be considered a "quality" airsoft pistol by some. Not necessarily by expense but externally with dimensions, markings, control position and function, external trigger operation are exactly the same as an S&W M&P9c. It fits in my holster the same as the centerfire version I own, and the sight picture upon presentation is nearly the same.

But if it started life as an airsoft pistol there is no way to my knowledge that you can replicate the recoil forces. If somehow you did the airsoft pistol wouldn't last for long. The slide on mine while externally looks like the real thing, is made of thin lightweight zinc alloy. The recoil spring is super light so that it will still reciprocate under the pressure of the propane that I send through it. The spring and slide material, locking block, pins, are inadequate if I were to subject it to recoil forces that actually lift the pistol off target.

So I would say no to my knowledge. The good news, is that you don't have to replicate the recoil to have benefits. Because a huge component of shooting is training your eyes and presentation. With a good grip, the pistol will return to the target. Here's a gentleman from Japan that had only shot Airsoft his whole life but someone took him the range to see if it translated to real firearms skill . It does. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQDf...lq&app=desktop
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Old September 3, 2020, 01:14 PM   #3
tomthecat
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Thanks for the link, cool video.
My problem is, I would like to improve specifically my recoil management, without going to the range. Now I'm not sure if that is possible, since the pressure required to operate a real gun, is the pressure created by actual live rounds, then again, I should go to the range.
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Old September 3, 2020, 04:18 PM   #4
dyl
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If you find a way to simulate full recoil energy using something less than centerfire rounds, please tell us all.

I think recoil management is a significant part of the barrier for shooters that either don't have the funds or access to a convenient range, compared to the casual occasional shooter. Ammo costs money especially these days. That's why I started reloading years ago. I just couldn't take the internal cringe I felt when I'd have to shell out 25-30 bucks every single time I wanted to shoot. When you (I) only have 2-3 boxes of ammo at your disposal, it's hard to let yourself speed up with an acceptable decline in precision. The temptation is to "make every shot count", which for the penny pincher is interpreted as trying for small pretty looking groups.
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Old September 3, 2020, 04:39 PM   #5
dyl
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Found this: https://coolfiretrainer.com/that looks like it has more recoil than airsoft. It's pricey but if you know what pistol you'll be using long term, it might work.
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Old September 3, 2020, 08:09 PM   #6
SIGSHR
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Only training device I have heard of that simulates recoil is the original Colt Ace, Carbine Williams designed a floating chamber for that effect.
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Old September 4, 2020, 03:04 PM   #7
Slopemeno
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Years ago- like 30 years ago- there was a C02 powered recoil simulator for 1911's- our shop had one as a training aid for classes. It ran off a 5# co2 cylinder. I can't recall how it worked offhand, but you replaced your slide and it would cycle the dummy slide on each trigger pull.

I did a ton of dry fire during years in our action shooting league. I'd say dry fire probably did more for my skill development than any other factor, since I could do it anytime, day, night, whenever. A friend of mine and I came up with some drills where we didn't even actually dry-fire, just pressed the trigger with the hammer down in order to shoot a simulated course of fire, and I believe it helped.

Spring-piston air pistols like a Beeman/Webley Tempest and Hurricane or the Weirauch P-1 works, though the recoil is actually kind of backwards. I have a Hurricane that has just about been work out from all the use.
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Old September 5, 2020, 05:16 PM   #8
dyl
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Slopemo, was it this? https://www.dvorakinstruments.com/products.asp They say there's a tethered version, can't see pricing on there which probably means.... expensive.
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Old September 5, 2020, 06:05 PM   #9
reteach
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This Dvorak inseert is an interesting doohickey. Don't think I'll be buying one, but if I were a firearms instructor, training new shooters, it might be worth having one of these.

Here's a video that shows the Dvorak system in use:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ewl0iOSm9_g

And here's an article that mentions prices from a couple of years ago:

https://www.recoilweb.com/enhanced-d...ak-133767.html
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Old September 6, 2020, 08:28 AM   #10
Warhammer
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Car guys say "there's no replacement for displacement." For training yourself to manage recoil and noise, there's no replacement for live fire training. Typically, people who are "recoil sensitive" aren't just sensitive to the recoil. It's also the muzzle flash and the noise that gets to them. None of the gas driven simulators will help with that, plus they only produce a fraction of the felt recoil. Dry fire practice has a very real place in your training regimen. As can airsoft, if you can find a good replica of the gun you shoot. But putting real rounds down range is the best training, especially for learning to handle recoil/blast/noise.
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Old September 7, 2020, 01:33 PM   #11
dyl
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I think the tethered version of the Dvorak might be able to fully replicate recoil if they designed it right (don't know, never tried it, but with a big tank of air it could happen).

What it would need would be a piston, that your firing pin would open up a valve to drive that piston back against the breech face of the pistol for sustained thrust. The valve would need to close a little before the slide reaches the end of travel. It should be powerful enough to use your native recoil spring. It would therefore be loud enough to need hearing protection.
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Old September 8, 2020, 02:23 PM   #12
Slopemeno
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It was *significantly* clunkier than that one. It had a 3' line that ran from the muzzle to a 5# co2 tank. It cycled the slide with about the same recoil as an Ace, or lightly loaded 9mm might. We had a slide with Wichita Sights mounted on it, which was sorta cool, but with the hose coming out of the muzzle you couldn't holster it.

It was a good tool for letting someone who'd never shot any centerfire gun before try a bit of recoil in the classroom, but we were heavy on dry-firing, and I'm a believer. I hear lots of folks bemoan the lack of ammo these days, yet nearly none of them say "..but I'm working on my front sight focus".
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Old September 9, 2020, 01:11 PM   #13
T. O'Heir
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Dry fire practice is more about practicing trigger control, breathing and sight picture not recoil.
Air soft guns are toys. Air powered target pistols are not. A Feinwerkbau pistol can run 2 grand. I was afraid to look about which currency. snicker.
And there's no bullet with a laser. Lasers are lights.
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Old September 10, 2020, 07:34 AM   #14
AK103K
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. O'Heir View Post
Dry fire practice is more about practicing trigger control, breathing and sight picture not recoil.
Air soft guns are toys. Air powered target pistols are not. A Feinwerkbau pistol can run 2 grand. I was afraid to look about which currency. snicker.
And there's no bullet with a laser. Lasers are lights.
Dry fire is, or can be, much more complicated than just trigger control, breathing and sight picture. Those are just the basics.

Recoil and sight picture are very much connected too.

Having a practice gun that will cycle and allow you to work on more realistic things, is a big plus, even if you dont get a full recoil impulse. Those airsoft "toys" are a cheap(er) way of getting that.

They also let you practice things you normally couldnt with a loaded gun, like shooting each other in drills.

No doubt, regular live fire is the way to go, but dry fire is, at the very least, an equal necessity to it, if you want to get good and maintain your skills.
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Old September 11, 2020, 04:56 PM   #15
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Forgive me Brother but this sounds like silly business. If you need to train.. go train. All this pretend which utilizes tech has very limited benefits regarding live fire skills(in my opinion). If you are teaching concepts ( shoot dont shoot) and other decision oriented methodology, I think tech is great. I you need to learn to run a gun.. you should probably put in the work, thats just my take on it. I have nothing against tech as a training aid, I just wouldnt try to make it into something that its not.
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