Pentagon Confirms Move to 6.8mm

[joed]

Originally Posted by agtman

To hear the 6.5 guys talk, those cartridges have made the 6.8 superfluous to the point of obsolescence.

Does my heart good to hear the 6.5 bunch whine. They have a high percentage of obnoxious fans that I have never seen for any other cartridge.

[ed308]

Wow, finally get to see one of the prototypes in use. The lack of recoil and low weight is impressive.

[stagpanther]

Lack of recoil? That's not what I saw. I saw distinct signs of the shooter taking the recoil. But no muzzle rise and super lightweight, plus bigger bullet at higher velocity--that's a winning combination.

What interests me is the whole concept of delivery of powder and projectile into a chamber for firing in a capsule, sorta like a return to the old days of musket loading with a modern twist. This removes the brass case tolerance altogether from the pressure rating equation.

[Double Naught Spy]

I liked in the video how the guy kept going on and on about how everything is muscle memory compatible with the SAW and AR platforms, then had to ask how to load the weapon. I am also 100% certain that breakdown and cleaning are going to be very different as well.

The telescoping ammo is interesting. I appreciate the reduced weight, but that does seem to come at the cost of increased bulk.

[rickyrick]

I hate to be the one to drag this one out of the dust pile...

But are there any updates to this. I was pretty adamant that this would fail to become a weapon in widespread use across the Army, but I’ve been wrong before.

[Double Naught Spy]

Yeah, new frontrunner in the rifles/ammo...

https://soldiersystems.net/2021/09/0...uture-weapons/

[stagpanther]

It also seems like the 338 Norma Mag is fast evolving into a caliber of choice.

[taylorce1]

Does anyone remember the XM8? I'm still betting we're a long ways off from wholesale replacement of the M4 as the primary weapon system in the military. However, like withe the XM8 program the military will incorporate some if tbe new technologies into existing systems. The XM8 program showed how modularity in firearms could work and gave the military a new grenade launcher the M320.

[Jim Watson]

I wonder if Lonestar has the manufacturing capacity to replace a huge industry like Gendye.

[44 AMP]

It also seems like the 338 Norma Mag is fast evolving into a caliber of choice.

I'd say it is fast evolving into a caliber of consideration, we're a long way from an actual choice.

[stagpanther]

we're a long way from an actual choice.

I believe Bryan Litz himself served as technical adviser in developing optimal ammo.

[Jim Watson]

All the 6.8 developers were required to use the same bullet. Presumably Mr Litz had a hand in its design. The cartridges are wildly different, he didn't likely have a say in that.

[stagpanther]

Presumably Mr Litz had a hand in its design. The cartridges are wildly different, he didn't likely have a say in that.

I was talking about the 338 (and the 300) Norma magnums--I believe they were designed from the ground up--including the cartridges--to be superior sniper systems. I lost track of it--but there's a video review someplace of the new weapons.

[Pumpkin]

Originally Posted by joed

Does my heart good to hear the 6.5 bunch whine. They have a high percentage of obnoxious fans that I have never seen for any other cartridge.

Except for maybe the Mighty 10mm.

[stagpanther]

Except for maybe the Mighty 10mm.

You mean the almighty 10mm? I have several of them. I was once hunting with my G20 and spotted a nice buck at about 400 yds in thick cover but I wasn't confident that I could dope the trajectory with just the factory iron sights. I then popped the magazine and removed one of the cartridges, and holding it high above my head I waved it back forth and made a doe bleat at the same time. When the buck saw I was holding a 10mm cartridge, it had a heart attack and fell over dead right there!

[stagpanther]

Here's another article on the development of the 338 NM light machine gun--initially for socom. Read it closely and you can get an idea of how unique and potent it's development really is.

[Jim Watson]

Interesting,
Says: "The LWMMG weighs 22 pounds, placing it well within the weight class of the 27-pound M240 machine gun"
Lighter weight but more powerful, it is lighter to hump but will kick more.

[stagpanther]

Interesting,
Says: "The LWMMG weighs 22 pounds, placing it well within the weight class of the 27-pound M240 machine gun"
Lighter weight but more powerful, it is lighter to hump but will kick more.

Should be a clear overmatch to the dragunov--but most impressive is the performance and the cartridges it will replace. Well-timed to a "new crop" of high performance .338 bullets, some of which I've used in my .338 LM.

[Lima Oscar 7]

Originally Posted by Ben Dover

We know that big, heavy bullets are good man-stoppers.

Heck, just ask George Custer!

The last war we won, we dictated what small arms would be used based in large part upon their killing capability; not their wounding capability. We called the shots and the world followed.

[JohnKSa]

If you're talking about WWII, the U.S. picked their calibers for that war by basically sticking with the calibers they were already using and justified that decision by the logistics savings.

Otherwise the M1 Garand would have been a 10 shot 7mm--which, by the way, would have likely had just about zero impact on the outcome of the war since it was won primarily by superior manpower, massively superior production volume capabilities, air power and ultimately nuclear weapons in the Pacific.

[Mike Irwin]

"Otherwise the M1 Garand would have been a 10 shot 7mm--which, by the way, would have likely had just about zero impact on the outcome of the war since it was won primarily by superior manpower, massively superior production volume capabilities, air power and ultimately nuclear weapons in the Pacific."

Actually the most likely scenario would have been that the United States would have gone to war not with a Garand in any caliber, with with the M1903 rifle.

Had the cartridge switch-over been greenlighted by MacArthur -- in the middle of the Great Depression -- it's virtually certain that the whole project would have been rejected by Congress due to overall cost consideration.

Overall it might not have had much effect on the outcome of the war, but it likely would have had a lot of negative consequences in the Pacific War where the Garand's firepower proved its value numerous times during massed Japanese attacks.

[jetinteriorguy]

WW2 was won by the GMC 2 1/2 ton truck. At least that’s what a lot of historians say, I agree. The ability to keep a fast moving front supplied in overwhelming fashion made the difference.

[Radny97]

After learning more about this, and seeing how long the military is into this process, I don’t think we are going to see any large scale swap to any of these proposed platforms anytime soon. More likely only small scale stuff for the next several years, if that.

The military has a long and storied history of putting out RFPs like this with the intent of injecting money into firearm R&D in the industry to see if they can motivate and push innovation in certain directions that interest them. If breakthroughs happen, you might see large scale adoption. More often small improvements are developed that eventually push small arms into new and important directions that eventually trickle into military usage. In this case, it looks like the military wants to see what can be done if we push the envelope of the pressures allowable in traditional rifle cartridges, and traditional brass cased cartridge design.

Here we see many different approaches to figuring out how to achieve pressures and velocities that normal brass cased ammo can’t accomplish because the brass case head and primer will occasionally blow once you get much above 64k psi. So we see Sig attempting a steel case head, or Textron trying telescoped ammo, and another trying polymer cased ammo. They are also trying different ways of mitigating the recoil of such a high pressure/high energy round. Sig is trying a reciprocating barrel, for example.

So, although I’m a huge fan of 6.8/.277 caliber cartridges, I suspect that the requirement of a particular caliber (6.8 mm) and a particular weight and dimension of bullet (140 gr boat tail) had less to do with the desirability of the caliber and bullet weight and more to do with trying to ensure that the R&D of the contract competitors is focused on pressure issues, case design and recoil mitigation rather than spending R&D time running down the rabbit hole of a caliber war or chasing ballistic co-efficients in bullet design.

We’ll see what comes of all this work. If they really do figure out how to develop a rifle that can operate consistently and reliably at above 90k psi in a rough battle environment and still be light enough for an infrantryman to use, then that truly will be a breakthrough. So far, I’m not seeing signs that such a true breakthrough has occurred or will occur. But only time will tell.


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[davidsog]

Shooting farther with more punch: The Army finally found an M4 and SAW replacement

https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-...w-replacement/

The XM157 is a magnified, direct-view optic with an integrated laser-range finder, digital compass, environmental sensors, visible and infrared aiming lasers, ballistics solver, and digital display overlay with wireless communication, according to PEO Soldier. The device can be loaded with any ballistics configuration in the Army’s arsenal or future ballistics data to provide the same capabilities on other small caliber weapons systems, officials said.

https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-...tomatic-rifle/

[44 AMP]

Looking through the linked articles makes me wonder about some things...

why are medics on the priority list to get the new rifles??

How is adding 5lbs and giving up 70 rnds to the basic grunt's load going to be a significant improvement?

Where are the "emergency use" (iron) sights? Are there any??

"The trigger requires an extra pull for firing - a safety feature"
Just what is that about?? NO explanation was given.

The optic runs on two (2) batteries and apparently does everything but make the GI's breakfast in bed. Which, and how many of those features are likely to be used, or the GI can remember to use when they are being shot at??

How did the writer(s) miss the obvious selling point of the many holes in the forearm being able to "automatically" pick up local vegetation adding to the camouflage ??

So, we're going to spend billions of dollars for new high tech stuff that will take a decade (if current projections hold) to be a general issue weapon system, no mention of spending anything on improving marksmanship training beyond familiarization with the new gadgets, when they become available.

And, there's also the point about "NATO compatibility" is that concept now being abandoned??

Right now, to me it looks like it will make the bean counters happy, might make the brass happy, will definitely make the folks who make the guns, optics, spare parts, and ammo happy, will add another level of complexity to supply and maint support functions (which won't make them happy), will add weight and reduce ammo carried for the line troops (with the promise of more hits and greater down range effectiveness) which won't make them happy, at least at first, and cost us a buttload of money, effort and time, and might also tick off our allies.

What's not to love??