When to worry about copper fouling?

baddarryl · August 26, 2013, 10:15 PM

When do you worry about fouling? I have an AR with maybe 200 rounds through it and a .270 with maybe 50 and both have evidence of copper. When is it enough to worry about? Neither do I use as serious target rifles. Thank you.

**JohnKSa** · August 26, 2013, 10:25 PM

Approach 1:
Don't worry about it until you notice the accuracy degrading. That may never happen if your guns don't foul much.

Approach 2:
Get a good foaming bore cleaner and use it when you clean. The good ones (Breakfree for one) remove copper pretty effectively and with very little effort.

JD0x0 · August 27, 2013, 11:10 AM

I worry about fouling right after I shoot and try to get it out ASAP. It's not that necessary, but I am not hurting anything.
You can worry about copper fouling when accuracy degrades. I like to get to it way before that happens.

Bart B. · August 28, 2013, 08:31 AM

I think most commercial factory barrels need a bit of copper wash left in their bores. Most are rough enough that when all the copper's removed, more has to be scraped off bullet jackets and deposited in the micro-pits in the lands and grooves until bullets leave unscraped. Leaving a bit of copper in the bore does no harm as long as there's a thin film of oil on it. Just dry swab that oil out before shooting it.

This has been my experience with Remington and Winchester factory barrels.

CharlieDeltaJuliet · August 28, 2013, 09:01 AM

Like John says don't mess with it until it affects accuracy. I have seen a 1/3 MOA rifle get cleaned and shoot over 1 MOA until it has a few shots through it. Todd Hodnett (a trusted nstructor in long range shooting, also in Magpul's Art of the Precision Rifle) told me to think of the copper as a bearing in a car motor. It works the same. The copper not only cushions the bullet, but reduces wear on the barrel. It fills imperfections in the barrel and up until the point of causing flyers and then inaccuracy will help the rifles accuracy.

I usually get a couple hundred shots before I have to break out the Butch's bore shine in my usual range rifle. It varies for each rifle. Find out what round count your rifle performs best to, and clean.

James K · August 28, 2013, 09:48 AM

In my small experience, more barrels have been damaged by excess cleaning to remove that copper wash than were ever hurt by its presence. I even heard of a guy who used valve grinding compound on a patch to get that ugly "rust" out of his barrels. And I have a friend who used Gleem toothpaste to do the same. (I don't think the toothpaste - a mild abrasive - would do any harm, but Gleem is off the market so I don't know what he is using now.)

Jim

CowTowner · August 29, 2013, 07:53 AM

Quote:

but Gleem is off the market so I don't know what he is using now.)

Sorry James, I just couldn't resist. Get your Gleem here and other interweb retailers:
http://www.drugstore.com/gleem-sodiu...paste/qxp15416

James K · August 29, 2013, 05:35 PM

I'll let him know. He swore it helped him win a batch of hardware at the National Matches.

Jim

Bart B. · August 30, 2013, 04:28 PM

Go to your dentist then ask where he gets finer grades of dental pumice (what's used to clean and polish your teeth). Maybe he'll order a quart can of it for you. Mix it with a light machine oil into a paste. It'll work fine.

JD0x0 · August 30, 2013, 06:34 PM

Abrasives in a bore? No thank you. I wouldn't even want a mild one, unless I was trying to smooth out pitting or some sort of imperfection.

For copper removal, I don't think a good application of an Ammonia-free copper chelate has ever hurt anyone's bore. Proper cleaning will not hurt a gun.

Clark · August 31, 2013, 01:54 AM

I have been using Flitz as an abrasive to get out the Copper.

I think it is finer than what was used to make the barrel.

I use Kroil, bronze brush, and KG-12.

I do not use Ammonia based solvents any more. Too much damage to the barrel and not enough damage to the Copper.

August 26, 2013, 10:15 PM	#1
baddarryl Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2011 Location: Cape Fear! Posts: 1,683	When to worry about copper fouling? When do you worry about fouling? I have an AR with maybe 200 rounds through it and a .270 with maybe 50 and both have evidence of copper. When is it enough to worry about? Neither do I use as serious target rifles. Thank you.

August 26, 2013, 10:25 PM	#2
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,993	Approach 1: Don't worry about it until you notice the accuracy degrading. That may never happen if your guns don't foul much. Approach 2: Get a good foaming bore cleaner and use it when you clean. The good ones (Breakfree for one) remove copper pretty effectively and with very little effort. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

August 28, 2013, 09:01 AM	#5
CharlieDeltaJuliet Senior Member Join Date: July 25, 2012 Posts: 755	Like John says don't mess with it until it affects accuracy. I have seen a 1/3 MOA rifle get cleaned and shoot over 1 MOA until it has a few shots through it. Todd Hodnett (a trusted nstructor in long range shooting, also in Magpul's Art of the Precision Rifle) told me to think of the copper as a bearing in a car motor. It works the same. The copper not only cushions the bullet, but reduces wear on the barrel. It fills imperfections in the barrel and up until the point of causing flyers and then inaccuracy will help the rifles accuracy. I usually get a couple hundred shots before I have to break out the Butch's bore shine in my usual range rifle. It varies for each rifle. Find out what round count your rifle performs best to, and clean. __________________ " The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in Government...." - Thomas Jefferson

August 31, 2013, 01:54 AM	#11
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	I have been using Flitz as an abrasive to get out the Copper. I think it is finer than what was used to make the barrel. I use Kroil, bronze brush, and KG-12. I do not use Ammonia based solvents any more. Too much damage to the barrel and not enough damage to the Copper. __________________ The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?

August 27, 2013, 11:10 AM	#3
JD0x0 Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2013 Posts: 1,037	I worry about fouling right after I shoot and try to get it out ASAP. It's not that necessary, but I am not hurting anything. You can worry about copper fouling when accuracy degrades. I like to get to it way before that happens.

August 28, 2013, 08:31 AM	#4
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	I think most commercial factory barrels need a bit of copper wash left in their bores. Most are rough enough that when all the copper's removed, more has to be scraped off bullet jackets and deposited in the micro-pits in the lands and grooves until bullets leave unscraped. Leaving a bit of copper in the bore does no harm as long as there's a thin film of oil on it. Just dry swab that oil out before shooting it. This has been my experience with Remington and Winchester factory barrels.

August 28, 2013, 09:48 AM	#6
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	In my small experience, more barrels have been damaged by excess cleaning to remove that copper wash than were ever hurt by its presence. I even heard of a guy who used valve grinding compound on a patch to get that ugly "rust" out of his barrels. And I have a friend who used Gleem toothpaste to do the same. (I don't think the toothpaste - a mild abrasive - would do any harm, but Gleem is off the market so I don't know what he is using now.) Jim

August 29, 2013, 05:35 PM	#8
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I'll let him know. He swore it helped him win a batch of hardware at the National Matches. Jim

August 30, 2013, 04:28 PM	#9
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Go to your dentist then ask where he gets finer grades of dental pumice (what's used to clean and polish your teeth). Maybe he'll order a quart can of it for you. Mix it with a light machine oil into a paste. It'll work fine.

August 30, 2013, 06:34 PM	#10
JD0x0 Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2013 Posts: 1,037	Abrasives in a bore? No thank you. I wouldn't even want a mild one, unless I was trying to smooth out pitting or some sort of imperfection. For copper removal, I don't think a good application of an Ammonia-free copper chelate has ever hurt anyone's bore. Proper cleaning will not hurt a gun.