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Old December 16, 2019, 07:59 PM   #1
HighValleyRanch
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Buffalobore .45 acp +P Outdoorsmand chronoed

Did a couple of tests with the BB Outdoorsman .45 acp +P in my Kahr P45 and my Glock 21C with a stormlake barrel.
255 grain flatnose keith hardcast

Glock got consistent 921 fps for 480 foot pounds ME
Kahr p45 got only 892, 907 and 850 for around 435 foot pounds ME

Glock ate them up, but the Kahr has a tighter chamber, and some were too tight so had to plunk test the whole box and got 10 that would fit.
In the Kahr, one round had a problem going in, but released the slide to get it home and it fired fine.

If the purpose for woods carry is penetration, I will get some of the Lehigh Penetrators to try out also. They might feed better in the Kahr than the BB hardcast. The +P factor was not a biggy in either gun.
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Old December 16, 2019, 08:08 PM   #2
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My 21 fired those without any issues. They consistently jammed up in my HK USP. I did a drop test after a few and the rounds did not seat in the chamber properly.
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Old December 16, 2019, 09:54 PM   #3
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Not being rude, but does that mean the BB load has issues?

I mean, if an HK and Kahr can't plunk test, an ammo should feed all manufactures and only not feed in random variation within all manufactures?

What's the issue with the BB round?
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Old December 16, 2019, 11:14 PM   #4
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There is no issues with the round. Some barrel chambers have issues with some projectiles. These HC projectiles are big. BB also makes a +P FMJ FN that works well and serve the same purpose as the HC... penetration without breaking apart.
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Old December 18, 2019, 05:50 PM   #5
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Whatever the manufacturer, chamber dimensions vary, as do ammo dimensions. Both may be "in spec" but incompatible. Just an example, we had problems with commercially loaded 9MM ammo. It routinely caused malfunctions in SIG pistols and HK MP5 SMGs. The Glocks, with their more generous chamber dimensions, functioned reliably with the same ammo. Changing to economy factory ammo like WWB, Rem-UMC,etc. produced reliable function in all 9MM firearms we used. All manufactured items have tolerances...
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Old December 18, 2019, 06:25 PM   #6
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My Smith M&P 45 wouldn't shoot them. No issues in the Glock or 1911's. They would chamber, but I had feeding issues. I'm thinking a stronger recoil spring might have solved the issue, but I didn't like the Smith all that much anyway and let it go.
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Old December 18, 2019, 08:52 PM   #7
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Quote:
Did a couple of tests with the BB Outdoorsman .45 acp +P in my Kahr P45 and my Glock 21C with a stormlake barrel.
255 grain flatnose keith hardcast

Glock got consistent 921 fps for 480 foot pounds ME
Kahr p45 got only 892, 907 and 850 for around 435 foot pounds ME
So if a person cared about this test I see that you don't issue the length of the barrels. So I guess you want them to go look that up.

Quote:
Glock ate them up, but the Kahr has a tighter chamber, and some were too tight so had to pluck test the whole box and got 10 that would fit.
In the Kahr, one round had a problem going in, but released the slide to get it home and it fired fine.
What's a "pluck test"? I read it that out of "a whole box" (how many is that? 20 rounds? 50 rounds?) only 10 rounds would fit in the chamber. Of these 10 only one fit when you "released the slide to get it home and it fired fine". Didn't you release the slide for the others? Didn't they feed from the mag?

Sounds like you had a bad box of BB ammo, which is rare. I don't know what to think about this.

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Old December 18, 2019, 09:56 PM   #8
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There, I corrected it....spellcheck you know which changes the word you want to what the computer thinks is smarter than you!LOL. Plunk not pluck.
Barrel is out for the plunk test and just making sure that each round drops down far enough so that the rim is even with the hood so that the slide will close all the way.

On the ones that did not chamber correctly, the slide close all the way. I had four boxes of 20 and checked all the boxes, and got about 50 percent of all the boxes to chamber correctly into the kahr, but they ALL dropped fully into the glock.

Glock 21 is 4.6 inches and the Kahr P45 barrel is 3.54" polygonal Lothar walther.
The Kahr has a tighter chamber tolerances than the glock, that's all.

Testing the day before I chronographed:
I shot two rounds of PMC FMJ then 4 rounds of the BB so that I could gage the recoil difference the night before I set up the chronograph. All functioned fine in the glock and recoil of the BB was not that big a deal.

I loaded one remington JHP that the kahr likes and then thee rounds of BB to test out functioning and recoil in the Kahr. After the first remington JHP round, the gun jammed badly. The slide did not close, and I could not rack the slide back to eject. I dropped the magazine and it had two left so I knew that the first BB round was stuck in the chamber. No matter what I did, I could not get the slide to budge. So i had to pushe the front of the slide against a door jam and hit the back of the frame to get it to budge and was finally able to get the round out. So that is when I decided to "plunk" test all the rounds for fit in the chamber.
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Old December 19, 2019, 07:07 AM   #9
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HighValleyRanch-Thanks for the info. Looks like the 255 lrnfp round gets close to the advertised velocity, and could be very useful. Have loaded 255 lrnfp for 45 acp, and not all pistols will feed/work with them. Alot depends on the actual bullet dia and col. For the ones that do, you get old time 45 LC power out of a semi 45 acp.

If you have any left, could u measure the col and dia of bullet right in front of case mouth? Thanks
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Old December 19, 2019, 08:15 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighValleyRanch View Post
There, I corrected it....spellcheck you know which changes the word you want to what the computer thinks is smarter than you!LOL. Plunk not pluck.
Barrel is out for the plunk test and just making sure that each round drops down far enough so that the rim is even with the hood so that the slide will close all the way.

On the ones that did not chamber correctly, the slide close all the way. I had four boxes of 20 and checked all the boxes, and got about 50 percent of all the boxes to chamber correctly into the kahr, but they ALL dropped fully into the glock.

Glock 21 is 4.6 inches and the Kahr P45 barrel is 3.54" polygonal Lothar walther.
The Kahr has a tighter chamber tolerances than the glock, that's all.

Testing the day before I chronographed:
I shot two rounds of PMC FMJ then 4 rounds of the BB so that I could gage the recoil difference the night before I set up the chronograph. All functioned fine in the glock and recoil of the BB was not that big a deal.

I loaded one remington JHP that the kahr likes and then thee rounds of BB to test out functioning and recoil in the Kahr. After the first remington JHP round, the gun jammed badly. The slide did not close, and I could not rack the slide back to eject. I dropped the magazine and it had two left so I knew that the first BB round was stuck in the chamber. No matter what I did, I could not get the slide to budge. So i had to pushe the front of the slide against a door jam and hit the back of the frame to get it to budge and was finally able to get the round out. So that is when I decided to "plunk" test all the rounds for fit in the chamber.
I actually did look up the Kahr barrel legnth all on my own... no help... it wasn't that hard. Seems like some people are evaluating the info you are passing on as if it is some book report or thesis. Look forward to your update with the solid coppers.
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Old December 19, 2019, 08:15 AM   #11
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Thanks for the info.

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Old December 19, 2019, 11:59 AM   #12
tipoc
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Thanks High Valley ranch. I could not understand what you were trying to say in your first post. Your comments make it a bit clearer.

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Old December 26, 2019, 02:23 PM   #13
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Had the same problem as described by HighValley with Buf Bore 255gr Outdoorsman ammo in both Kahr CW45 and HK USP full size. I sent the CW45 bbl to Dougguy (facebook or post #43 in link below) to be "throated". No problems since. Here's a link relating to "throating" .45 ACPs.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...1911-Throating

FWIW,

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Old December 26, 2019, 03:18 PM   #14
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Could be that I misunderstand something here.

Most reloaders size their bullets to fit their guns for good operation and accuracy. In this case it seems folks are looking to altering their barrel chambers to fit one brand of commercial ammo. Or resizing the chamber to fit a particular store bought lead bullet rather than resizing the bullet to operate in that barrel. This will also alter, or can alter, how the guns operates with other ammo. I'm assuming here that the barrel is not undersized to begin with but is a normal factory barrel.

It seems, if I'm reading correctly, opposite of the goal of most handloaders. Or maybe it's viewed as a short cut around handloading.

If X commercial bullet does not work in your gun there are two normal possible roads to go. One don't use that bullet and case but select another with the same capabilities or close to it. Or 2. get into reloading where you can develop your own load that works well in the gun you want to use it from.

The video that was posted earlier was about throating 1911 barrels. But most commercially made 1911 barrels for the past 30 years or so have been properly throated. It's generally older barrels that need throating. In some cases a barrel may need some throating to use lead bullets with a very wide meplat. This to avoid the meplat from hanging up on the edge of a non ramped barrel.

The op's problem was the diameter of the bullet case due to BB selling over sized bullets in some cases across that dimension.

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Last edited by tipoc; December 26, 2019 at 03:29 PM.
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Old December 26, 2019, 03:26 PM   #15
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I bought some Buffalo Bore 45 LC rounds years ago. About 1/3 were too long overall,.they stuck out the cylinder far enough that it wasn't able to rotate. That was the first and only time I bought from them. Would not buy ammo again from them, heard more than one person having issues with their products.
Google:. Buffalo bore ammo issues
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Old December 26, 2019, 07:20 PM   #16
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Most commercial cast 255 gn lrnfp come with a cannelure and have a full diameter in front of the cannelure, unlike the 200 gn lrnfps. They don't all have the same nose profile however, and the keith styles are even more proplematic in 45 acp semi's. It would appear most 45 acp semi barrels are not designed to have the full dia much past the case mouth, and this can present a problem with balancing the col of a 255 lrnfp between feeding, crimping and chambering. Especially if they are sized .452. And yes you can size down a 255 lrnfp lead bullet, but still have the problem. And yes i have done all this, not just read about it on internet. This is one reason BD (brother) had a custom mold made for a 230 lrnfp, without a cannulure.

Some may find some advantage to using a 255 gn lrnfp out of a 45, and am another one with a throated 45 acp barrel. There can also be some concern with the bullet hitting the slide stop, and this might be remedied. My preference for 255 lrnfp out of 45 acp is the Lee version, for it's weight and wide meplat.
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Old December 26, 2019, 07:31 PM   #17
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is this suppose to be a hunting round?
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Old December 26, 2019, 09:58 PM   #18
HighValleyRanch
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I live in the woods.
Not hunting, just woods carry protection for four legged critters.
Lots of cougars, boars and black bears in this area.
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Old December 26, 2019, 10:07 PM   #19
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Quote:
Not being rude, but does that mean the BB load has issues?
I don think you are being rude one bit. But then I'm not a boutique ammo maker's fan boy.
If it isn't reliable in everything you own, it isn't reliable, and therefore has issues.
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Old December 26, 2019, 10:32 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by JERRYS. View Post
is this suppose to be a hunting round?
It was designed as a woods defense round. It works flawlessly in my G21, stock barrel and KKM barrel, but does not fit in my HK USP 45 Chamber. It is a very reliable round, but not for every 45.
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Old December 26, 2019, 10:41 PM   #21
wild cat mccane
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Exactly. I wouldn't call the HK throats small.

So...
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Old December 26, 2019, 11:33 PM   #22
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On the HKPro forums the prevailing wisdom was to avoid BuffaloBore in 45 ACP given a number of users encountering the issues mentioned here.

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Old December 29, 2019, 03:30 PM   #23
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This is the ammo under discussion.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=395

Quote:
45ACP +P ammo is externally/dimensionally identical to 45 ACP ammo and can be fired in any 45 ACP firearm that is in normal operating condition...

...The three JHP loads are designed for defense against humans, while the two non-expanding loads are designed to shoot through large shoulder bones or the skull on a black bear. These non-expanding bullets also work well if you need to shoot through cover like car doors or stick frame walls.
Folks can read the specifics there.

It's the latter hard cast loads that are under discussion in particular here.

Over the years I've found that BB loads, particularly the +P and +P+ loads can leave the factory with bulged cases. That is cases that are bulged over factory standards for loaded ammo or handloads and will not fit in all guns chambered for the round intended.

Over a decade ago I returned an box of 357 ammo to them with a 180 gr bullet in them because the ammo would not load properly in a S&W Model 27. To get the rounds in would have required a push or a tap to drive the rounds into the cylinder. This is not something you want to do as it almost always means an issue with extraction or ejection at the least.

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Old December 29, 2019, 04:22 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tipoc View Post
This is the ammo under discussion.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=395

Over the years I've found that BB loads, particularly the +P and +P+ loads can leave the factory with bulged cases. That is cases that are bulged over factory standards for loaded ammo or handloads and will not fit in all guns chambered for the round
Was the brass bulged or the bullet a little to big? The brass they use should all be the same dimension whether regular loads, +p or +p+. The problem with the rounds in this thread appear to be because the throat/leade wasn’t large enough.

If the rounds work in some guns but not others it’s quite possible the barrel manufacturer just took the cheap way out and didn’t cut a decent throat on the gun. Any handloader shooting cast bullets will benefit from a smooth transition into the rifling. Having the throat cut appropriately isn’t taking a shortcut, it’s fixing what the manufacturer should have done in the first place.
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Old December 29, 2019, 04:43 PM   #25
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No one who makes 1911's for the past 30+ years has produced bad throats on barrels. Throats are not the issue here at any rate.

The op pointed out that some (not all) BB bullets would not chamber all the way in his Kahr and it was reported the same for other makes of 45s. The issue was not a jam where the bullet would hang up on the meplat. The issue was the bullets would enter the chamber but not completely. This was also seen when dropped manually into the chamber. This means that the case was bulged and oversized in diameter at some point along the length of the case. Myself and others have seen this in some BB products.

In a semi this means the round would not reliably go into battery due to an oversized case that was bulged due to poor loading practice.

That the bullets function is Glocks should be no surprise as Glocks use chambers that are larger by about .003 than standard barrel chambers used by other manufacturers.

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