B.P. legal question

[OutlawJoseyWales]

I'm sure this was been talked about many times. My question is about B.P. revolvers and the law.
Since they are not considered firearms by BATF, as least my understanding is they are not. I could be way wrong there.
But I do know you can receive them without an FFL, at least I got that part right.

Is my B.P. revolver considered a handgun by the cops if it is in my car and unloaded?

I would think that it would be and all regulations should be followed like a "ca-trige" firearm.
Thanks, OJW

[Hardy]

In most states, no. In SC it can be loaded if it is non-conceiled. Of course you can't carry it into a bank or bar.

[Hawg]

I don't think there would be a problem transporting it unloaded. In most states it's not loaded until it's capped but check local laws to be sure.

[Bill Akins]

OutlawJoseyWales wrote:
My question is about B.P. revolvers and the law.
Since they are not considered firearms by BATF, as least my understanding is they are not. I could be way wrong there.
But I do know you can receive them without an FFL, at least I got that part right.

Is my B.P. revolver considered a handgun by the cops if it is in my car and unloaded?

I would think that it would be and all regulations should be followed like a "ca-trige" firearm.
Thanks, OJW

Hi Josey. I highlighted your question in blue so it would be easy to re-refer to.

A muzzleloading revolver that is designed to be held by one hand is still a handgun even if it isn't considered a firearm under federal law. I could be wrong and please correct me if I am, but I believe you may have meant to ask if it would be considered a "firearm" (not a handgun, which it IS muzzleloader or cartridge) by the cops.

The short answer is....it depends.

The long answer requires my book below Lol.

In the U.S. we have four different and separate forms of government. 1. Federal. 2. State. 3. County. 4. City/municipal.

In this case we can omit #1. (Federal law) because muzzleloading weapons are specifically exempted from the NFA and are not considered firearms by Federal law.

But that leaves....2. State law. 3. County law and 4. City/municipal law.

Many state laws mirror Federal law, but....state's rights (which are a joke considering the interstate commerce act wherein the Feds do whatever they want IF THEY WANT SOMETHING, regardless of state law if a judge rules in favor of the Feds in an interstate commerce case...but I digress).....

again....state's right (supposedly) allow a state to enact laws that are more restrictive than Federal law. Such as an example N.J. Where you cannot have a muzzleloading revolver mailed directly to you and must go through an FFL even though the Federal NFA specifically exempts muzzleloaders from being classified as firearms. That's an example of a state law being more restrictive than Federal law. So....it depends on your state law.

Then there are county and city/municipal ordinances. Many counties and cities enact ordinances that are in direct contradiction to their state law....but....they do it anyway and the county brings financial devastation (common tactic used by the Feds, state, county and cities) upon you if you try to sue them for violating state law. The financial devastation consists of your bail if you are arrested, your attorney costs, time lost from work, not to mention the emotional and physical toll on you. That is how anti-gun Federal, state, county and municipal forces operate against you if you have the audacity to exercise your constitutional or state's rights.

The "powers that be" of a county or city that want to violate your 2nd amendment or even your state law rights don't care about the law. They know they can USUALLY overwhelm an individual who is using their own funds for litigation while the "authorities" have unlimited tax dollars to quite simply in most cases out-money you. It is sad to say but that is the so called "justice" system we have in this country. It isn't really a system of justice, but a flawed legal system that gives high deference to the "authorities" while you are often viewed as an "upstart peasant" "rocking the boat" and allows whoever has the most money for best legal council to win.
Then whether you win or the "authorities" win....there is the expense of appeal. Either you appeal or the "authorities" appeal. Either way they continue to financially devastate you. And that is their goal. To destroy you financially to where you finally give up. And our "justice" system allows this and is actually set up to maintain this status quo. I didn't even touch on an anti-gun judge ruling directly in contradiction of Federal or state law. Which of course would engender an appeal (if you could afford it) and then you may go in front of an anti-gun appellate judge or judge panel which ALSO rules in contradiction of Federal and state law. And since SCOTUS only will grant cert to less than 5% of the cases submitted to them, if a district court and an appellate court actually rule in contradiction of the Federal or state law, then if you can't get cert from SCOTUS, those illegal and immoral rulings stand even though they violate Federal and or state law. And that is how precedents are set. It is also how injustice works.

That is the reality, trust me, I've had quite a bit of experience in this regard that I won't EVEN go into nor do I wish anyone else familiar with my experiences to go into those cases at this forum.

So not only does it depend on your state law, it also depends on how willing you are to sue the county and or city if they violate your state law with ordinances that conflict with your state law.

The bottom line is this....the Feds are SUPPOSED to follow congressional law.
They don't. The state is supposed to follow state law. They don't. The county and cities are supposed to not have any ordinances that contradict state law. They don't follow state law either.

If you fight any of them in litigation, their common tactic is to bring financial devastation upon you, destroy you so you will give up, and even if you win, you lose because it takes years off your life, causes divorces, empties out your bank account and mortgages your house and anything else you have to fight a long protracted legal battle. And frequently even if you win, the courts will rule that you have to eat your own attorney fees. After all, the nerve of you dirty unwashed peasant having the gall to not know your place and bring suit against the "authorities".

And that my friends is the "legal system" in America. Do not confuse it with a "justice system", because there is no such thing as a system of justice in this country anymore. What we have is a Federal, State, County and City/municipal system of government that is designed to maintain a certain status quo and keep the peasants in line even if it breaks our constitution and other laws to do so. It does this to maintain the necessary status quo which is necessary for the elites in power to CONTROL the peasantry and to maintain their positions of power, opulence and luxury....at our taxpayer dollar expense.

We are slaves who think, and have been propagandized to think that we are free when we are not. We have also been propagandized to think if our rights are violated we can take it to court for redress of grievances. But as you can see...the game is rigged and the cards are stacked. And the game riggers want to set examples of you whether you win or lose to deter others from following your example.

Ancient Rome would crucify a Spartacus occasionally to keep the peasants cowed and in line, today they financially, physically and emotionally devastate you. Or you go to jail over an unjust ruling.

Bottom line? There is no security in the law. You cannot count on it. If the "authorities" want to prosecute you even if you have broken no Federal or state law,...they will and you will be damned lucky if you win. Because the judges theirselves are part of this "legal system" that has nothing whatsoever to do with a "justice" system. We won't even go into an O.J. Simpson, Casey Anthony, soccer mom jury that if you get a jury trial your fate is in the hands of.

So to answer your question of...."Is my B.P. revolver considered a handgun (I think you may have meant "firearm" because it already IS a handgun) by the cops if it is in my car and unloaded?"....Number one, it depends on the individual officer, his supervisor, his police chief (and his political aspirations), the police commissioner (and his political aspirations),....or if in a county....the deputy, his supervisor, the actual sheriff (and his political aspirations), the local judge (and his political aspirations), the district judge (and his political aspirations), the appellate judge or judges (and his/their political aspirations), or the jury (and their political opinions which have nothing to do with law) and almost never SCOTUS unless it is a wide in scope case affecting thousands of people.

This is not the land of the free, it is the land of who has the most power, influence and money.

To answer your question....IT'S COMPLICATED and not easily answered and just DEPENDS on a whole host of things. With the actual law and your rights being of the least concern.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. All we can do is the best we can. After all, we live in a "legal system" (no justice system) that is based upon ancient Greek, Roman, English and Napoleonic law, all flawed systems, so just how "Just" can we expect it to be?

Everything the Nazis did was perfectly legal too....according to their nazi laws. And if it wasn't....they just made it up as they went along and devastated anyone who had the audacity to question them. Sound familiar?

Sorry for writing a book, but some things just cannot be easily answered in one paragraph.


.

[4V50 Gary]

Check your state laws for definition of firearm and then see if there are any exceptions for blackpowder muzzle loading firearms.

[zullo74]

The simple answer is YES if it's loaded and NO if it is not.

[Rifleman1776]

Law and logic are not part of the picture.
Whether the LEO is an intelligent, reasonable person or a jerk is all that matters.
Keep it packed away and out of sight. Say nothing.

[OutlawJoseyWales]

Wow Bill, thanks for all that, you would be a hoot to hang out with.
Yeah, I meant to say "firearm."

I don't transport my B.P. Revovlers loaded and particularly-capped.
But, I've read about all kind of problems that guys have because if ignorant or overzealous law informent types over the years.
Just didn't want to end-up being one of those stories.

Another question that is just as wierd as the first one.
I drive a pickup truck to the range.
I often take a number of B.P. revolvers in my cart box IN the truck bed and NOT in the cab.

Would this be a problem here in Florida is I get stopped?
It's not IN the cab, and NOT in the trunk?

Thanks

[Hawg]

I think the truck bed would qualify as a trunk.

[zullo74]

What Hawg said.

[OutlawJoseyWales]

Thanks guys.

So, let me get this straight.
It's a firearm IF it's loaded, but NOT a firearm if it's not?

That sounds "legally true" but I'm going to follow Rifleman 1776 advice and keep them out of sight and say nothing.

And, if the bed of my pickup is a trunk then I'm cool there too.

thanks,
OJW

[zullo74]

I think you've got it now.

[Lee McNelly]

My best advice would be talk to long standing sheriff and da or chief and see what they say

[zullo74]

Yeah, like they would know the law! Don't count on it. The best advice is to actually read the ordinances ones self.

[maillemaker]

My best advice would be talk to long standing sheriff and da or chief and see what they say

The State Attorney General would be a better place to ask.

[pohill]

As an ex-cop, I can tell you that in this day and age, with all the crap that a cop has to deal with, with all the laws that you must be on top of, black powder laws are pretty much near the bottom of the list. I would not expect the average cop to know what is legal in regards to BP - how often does it come up? - but I can tell you that if you carry a loaded BP revolver, concealed, it might not be a firearm, but it's most likely a dangerous weapon. And any cop will act to cover their butt if there is a question. It's not a matter of the cop being a jerk, or anti-2nd Amendment, or whatever, it's a matter of liability. When was the last time you heard of a person passing a field sobriety test? (I'll elaborate on that if you want).
Even if you're right, and the BP revolver is legal, it might cost you to prove it.
Seek out someone who knows the laws and until you find out for sure, err on the side of caution.
The laws in my state, Massachusetts, are so screwed up that a chief of police in a small central MA town is the one that even the State Police refer people to with obscure gun law questions - he has done the research.

[Bishop Creek]

According to the law in California I can legally carry a loaded cap and ball revolver in my vehicle while traveling. As long as it is uncapped, it is considered unloaded. Do I do this? No. I don’t want to be a test case in court so when I go to the range my revolver is in a locked case, unloaded, with the cylinder removed.

[Tuzo]

Mr. Akins has a great deal of experience with various government agencies while producing and marketing the "Akins Accelerator." Back peddling by the ATF plus how they interpret regulations has caused him to lose investment money and gain legal headaches.

Whether a single firearm, weapon, gun, black powder or not, etc., is legal will depend on the fuzzy aspects of non-precise laws, emotional viewpoints, friendly or hostile judges, and many other expected and unexpected factors. The best answer to your question is "it depends." Research and familiarity with regulations does not guarantee freedom from prosecution and arbitrary decisions by the law; but, it does give you an advantage.

After Hurricane Katrina many members of the New Orleans Police Department confiscated weapons, murdered innocents, looted, and behaved rather poorly. NOPD ignored and re-interpreted regulations to their own misconceived advantage. At least most if not all confiscated weapons were returned.

Here is my theory of the genesis of many regulations - regulogenesis. A single individual, wearing a sleeveless white shirt, reports to a windowless government office at precisely 8 AM. Boots up his word processor and writes regulations without benefit of research and common sense. At noon precisely a baloney on white bread sandwich is eaten for lunch. Toilet break followed by a return to the computer at precisely 12:30 PM. Work until precisely 5 PM and off to home, a single window apartment similar to a monk's cell. No tv, no radio, but a great amount of books, including the US tax code, containing laws and regulations. These books are light reading for our individual.

[OutlawJoseyWales]

Tuzo, thanks for the humor,
I actually know someone with a similar personality and similar (not exact) type job, it just happens to be with an insurance company.

Guys, these answers are awesome.
But, what I reading here says that there isn't a right answer to my question.
This is scary, especially since most of us drive around with guns in our cars and trucks.

BTW, what praytell is an "Akin's Excelerator?" I'm guessing it doesn't go on a car.

OJW

[zullo74]

This an Akins Accelerator...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P8AbTKvykE

[bedbugbilly]

If this is a concern, why not contact your local sheriff's dept. in the state you live in and have them tell you exactly what the law is. Seems like that would be the most sensible thing to do for your concerns.

I winter in AZ and summer in MI - the gun laws of both states vary as to what you can and can't do - whether it be a cartridge firearm or a BP - and if I'm not mistaken, the "game laws" of some states come in to play as well.

Regardless of whether it is a cartridge handgun or a BP handgun - which is not technically considered a "firearm" - I can guarantee you that if stopped by an LEO - "if it looks like a gun, then it's a gun" and he will approach it that way. Let's face it . . you can't blame the LEO for approaching it in that manner until the situation is clarified.

AZ has some of the most liberal gun laws in the country. They did away with the CCW requirement and anyone, who is of age and not a convicted felon, can carry concealed (or open). However, the state does still issue CCW licenses and requires an 8 hour course. To illustrate the differences in the law . . . I have a AZ CCW license. I can enter a bar carrying a concealed weapon BUT, I cannot consume alcohol. If a person carries CCW, but does NOT have the state CCW license - they cannot enter the establishment carrying a concealed weapon.

The best thing to do is check with your local, county or state LE agencies and I'm sure that they will be more than happy to answer and clear up any questions you may have.

I would strongly advise against the advice to keep it covered in the car and not say anything. If you are stopped by LE and they ask if you have any weapons in the car and you answer no . . . and then they have probable cause to search your vehicle and find s=your weapon, even though it is BP and technically not a "firearm". . . I guarantee you that you will be in hot water and they are not going to be very pleased with you.

Just my 2 cents worth . . . .