Difference between 8mm Mauser ammo

[FrankenMauser]

The so called, "wimpy", American loads are ballistically similar to the 32 Winchester Special. And, as we all know, that's little better than a spear anymore, since the game animals have built up their immune systems to resist such wimpy loads over the last century.

Speak the truth, dear sir! Speak it!
Share it with the world!

[zipspyder]

Why would some of you be OK with loads that don't let the caliber reach it's real performance level? For plinking those weaker loads are great, heck for deer they are probably fine, but that is not the point though is it? All some of want is a better selection of higher performance ammo.

[kraigwy]

Mannlicker made the 8X51 Kurz, a short action 8mm using the .318 bullet. It was designed for the carbine lenght hunting rifles.

Not a real impressive round but I picked up a Mannlicker that had been bubbaed. The Cal. is listed on the action so I thought I'd restore it to the origial caliber. I think the original loading of the 157.5 gr bullet had a velocity of 2156, and the 196 gr bullet had a velocity of 2056 fps.

Loading data is gonna be hard to find. The only loading I've found was 36.5 gr. Rottweiler 5, for the 157.5 gr.

But I have to get the gun put together before I worry about that. I got the reamer and head space gages from Clymer. Just haven't put it together yet.

[highpower3006]

Spelling Nazi alert! it is spelled "Mannlicher"

Turned 61 a week ago.

Still just a kid. Last month I turned 66 and I still have no idea how I managed to get this old. It certainly wasn't because I was trying to.....

I don't collect ammo, but I am a sucker for old or obscure cartridges if they are still in the original boxes. Last week I found some cool 8mm Mauser at a local store. I thought it was unusual in that it came from Ecuador. I always thought that most South American countries used 7mm with the notable exception of Argentina.

[Wyosmith]

KragWy, I found one load for 150 grain bullets. It's 41 Grains of 4064

Also I have one listed for a .318" 125 grain with 30 grains of 4198. But I know of no .318 or .323 bullet in 125 grain that you could use today.
A sizer die and ram-punch can make .318s from .323s but you still have to start with bullets to size down. I know of none available anymore. Speer used to make some, but that was a long time ago.

In the end, there is always a cast bullet. You could have a bullet mold made at around 200-210 grains and shoot the rifle at full power and it will still be well within the range that cast bullets work at.
And the last thing you can do (that I can think of) is to buy a 22-26 cal bullet mold and drill it to make a slug that you could paper patch up to about .319". I have done this kind of thing in the past and I have to say, it can be a delicate operation to find a combination that works well, but with patience I have been rewarded with very good accuracy using paper patched slugs in 308, 30-06 and one in 300 H&H. So your 8X51 may be a good one to try this with. what I don't like about Paper Patch rifles is that most of the worked best with very long throats so the patched bullet is supported in the barrel before it's fired. that means it usually ruins the barrel for any future use of jacketed bullets. So going to a cast bullet option is often a full commitment for a rifle. Unlike a pistol or revolver, a cast bullet rifle is nearly always dedicated to cast only if you want it to shoot very well. You can't go back and forth after you throat one out to accept the patch or the shank of a cast bullet.

[Pathfinder45]

To respond to this:
[QUOTE]Why would some of you be OK with loads that don't let the caliber reach it's real performance level? For plinking those weaker loads are great, heck for deer they are probably fine, but that is not the point though is it? All some of want is a better selection of higher perfromance ammo. [QUOTE]

First of all, I have come to the point where I simply don't expect the same level of excellence from any factory ammo as I do from my handloads.
Those weaker loads are fine for deer, and having less recoil, perhaps they are easier on the shooter. Managed Recoil, anyone?
Wanting a better selection of higher performance ammo in one of the reasons that many took up reloading. If you don't want to reload, you would be much better served by a 30-'06, even though it too, is also loaded well below its potential.
Maybe some folks like the milder ammo because their kids can get their first deer with Grandpa's old rifle and they like the brass to reload with something a little stronger for moose, perhaps.
If you want premium ammo, you can find it online, but don't expect it to be cheap. For that, you simply must reload.

[emcon5]

Originally Posted by Pathfinder45

Those weaker loads are fine for deer, and having less recoil, perhaps they are easier on the shooter. Managed Recoil, anyone?

Yeah, the wimpy loads should still kill anything in North America aside from maybe big bears, but compared to the original specifications, they are underpowered.

And if you use military rifles the numbers on the rear sight won't match the ammo.

[jimbob86]

Why would some of you be OK with loads that don't let the caliber reach it's real performance level?

..... maybe because the older rifles we are shooting them in won't handle full house 8x57 JS loads without stretching the receiver? ..... and we like the gun , and we like our pink and soft selves intact and not leaking fluids?

Case head separations and pierced primers are in fact exciting .... some us have had enough of that sort of excitement at this point in our lives ..... here's hoping you get to that point without any permanent damage to yourself or others..... Cheers!

[zipspyder]

First of all, I have come to the point where I simply don't expect the same level of excellence from any factory ammo as I do from my handloads.
Those weaker loads are fine for deer, and having less recoil, perhaps they are easier on the shooter. Managed Recoil, anyone?
Wanting a better selection of higher performance ammo in one of the reasons that many took up reloading. If you don't want to reload, you would be much better served by a 30-'06, even though it too, is also loaded well below its potential.
Maybe some folks like the milder ammo because their kids can get their first deer with Grandpa's old rifle and they like the brass to reload with something a little stronger for moose, perhaps. If you want premium ammo, you can find it online, but don't expect it to be cheap. For that, you simply must reload.

I don't want to take up reloading for it. Some people want more performance choice in available off the shelf ammunition that is semi reasonable priced. Not sure why that is so hard to understand? Seriously it's the same people over and over again arguing against choice? You like lower performance, fine plenty out there but why not let the non plinker's enjoy more? If you don't know what your rifle can handle that is on you. This is one weird forum.

[jimbob86]

I don't want to take up reloading for it. Some people want more performance choice in available off the shelf ammunition that is semi reasonable priced. Not sure why that is so hard to understand? Seriously it's the same people over and over again arguing against choice? You like lower performance, fine plenty out there but why not let the non plinker's enjoy more? If you don't know what your rifle can handle that is on you. This is one weird forum.

You are free to run whatever you want in your gun, Zip.

I'm not sure that I understand what your complaint is .... do you want to require major domestic ammo makers to offer " more performance choice in available off the shelf ammunition that is semi reasonable priced."

.... or is it that you object that others are free to not want what you want?

Elaborate, Sir.

[kraigwy]

Wyosmith. Thanks for the info. After the last post I got to playing with quick load and found lots of options.

But I'm a huge fan of cast bullets in rifles, and as you said, there are plenty of 323 cast bullets that can easily be sized down to 319 or .320 which should work quite well.

[zipspyder]

You are free to run whatever you want in your gun, Zip.

I'm not sure that I understand what your complaint is .... do you want to require major domestic ammo makers to offer " more performance choice in available off the shelf ammunition that is semi reasonable priced."

.... or is it that you object that others are free to not want what you want?

"Why would some of you be OK with loads that don't let the caliber reach it's real performance level?"

If that is what you are referring to what I meant is if you are satisfied with lower power loads fine with me but those of us wishing for more commercial higher performance ammo be available get frowned upon. Just because those lower power loads are not really all that wimpy so what? I want to shoot the loads my Yugo is capable of handling. Can't make it any plainer than that. Like I said some weird replies in this thread.

This is what I shoot right now: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/43...cket-box-of-20

[jimbob86]

I want to shoot the loads my Yugo is capable of handling. Can't make it any plainer than that.

Who's stopping you from doing so?

[zipspyder]

I never said anybody was stopping me but have no idea what you mean by that? I'm not an ammunition manufacturer. Nice reply btw.

[jimbob86]

You are talking in circles, Zip.

[zipspyder]

I can see that you think that jimbo...

[FrankenMauser]

Yeah, the wimpy loads should still kill anything in North America aside from maybe big bears, but compared to the original specifications, they are underpowered.

And if you use military rifles the numbers on the rear sight won't match the ammo.

That's definitely a big deal.
I'll never be able to test the 6,000 meter setting on my Spanish Mauser, or the 2,000 meter (yard?) setting on my Yugo 1924.
My life will be empty and worthless.



Or, I could just do what I already do, and load my own...

[GarandTd]

I think if you're looking for ample choices of full power commercial ammo, you'd probably be better off shooting a more contemporary round/rifle. Otherwise, reloading or jumping through hoops for expensive ammo is the reality we must face. Same thing I have to deal with with my 35 Remington rifles.

[emcon5]

That's definitely a big deal.
I'll never be able to test the 6,000 meter setting on my Spanish Mauser, or the 2,000 meter (yard?) setting on my Yugo 1924.
My life will be empty and worthless.

Some people are perfectly happy shooting 50 yards off sandbags. I am not.

[Archie]

Franken- I collect WWI military rifles. Having the ammunition 'match' the sight settings IS a big deal to me. Evaluating the rifles is rather sketchy otherwise.

So I cheat. I reload as close as I can to the original weights and velocities.

F'rinstance, I have a Model 1888 Commission Rifle. Originally chambered for M1888 8x57mm Commission Rifle (or some thing). The original loading was a 226 (more or less; it was specified 14.8 grams and comes out goofy in grains) grain bullet with nearly straight sides and a very round nose. FMJ, of course. Muzzle velocity was a snappy 2,093 fps. That was the "J Patrone" (cartridge) and had a .318" bullet.

Bullets are impossible to find for this round to do any 'replication'. However, in 1905 the German Empire government finally figured out the superiority of smokeless powder and changed over to the same case (8x57mm) but with a bullet of 154 grains (9.9 gram) pointy (spitzer) bullet, also FMJ, at the velocity of 2880 fps (from a roughly 30 inch barrel). This bullet was made with a bullet diameter of .323" inch. By this time, the German Empire was using the '98 Mauser of some fame; but the M1888 was still used by second line troops and such. So the M1888's were rechambered to allow the 'new' loading to fit (reaming out the neck of the chamber to allow the new loading to fit) and the 'updated' rifles marked with an "S". They used the same ammo as the '98s.

Between the world wars this loading was changed again to a 196 grain bullet to accommodate long range machine gun fire. The NAZI government (by this time) decided to use the same ammo for all rifles to make supply simpler. This is after my time of interest. But it does explain the bullet weight in current offerings.

By the way, there is no documentary evidence of the bore diameter being changed in the M1888 rifles. Makers since then have made sporting rifles in both calibers.

Oh. The excessive range markings on the early sights was for volley fire, not individual shooters.

[FrankenMauser]

Some people are perfectly happy shooting 50 yards off sandbags. I am not.

You keep sweating it.
I'll keep doing what I do.

On Monday, I was smacking steel at 275, 320, and 400 yards with the 'battle' setting (300 meters) on one of my 1916 Spanish Mausers and "anemic" 7x57mm PPU 139 gr ammo.

The "underpowered" ammo was such a big deal that we had to hold an entire 12 INCHES high to hit the 400 yard gong.
The humanity!!...

[amd6547]

I buy milsurp rifles because of my interest in historical weapons.
I didn’t buy a Yugoslav refurb kar98k in like new condition to shoot saami-neutered commercial ammo, regardless of whether of not that underpowered ammo shoots “OK”.

The only commercial 8mm ammo which meets full power spec is S&B.

[GarandTd]

What about Hornady 8x57 vintage match 196 grain? I believe that's full power, isn't it?

[emcon5]

You keep sweating it.
I'll keep doing what I do.

On Monday, I was smacking steel at 275, 320, and 400 yards with the 'battle' setting (300 meters) on one of my 1916 Spanish Mausers and "anemic" 7x57mm PPU 139 gr ammo.

The "underpowered" ammo was such a big deal that we had to hold an entire 12 INCHES high to hit the 400 yard gong.
The humanity!!...

And your 7mm Mauser is relevant to 8X57 how exactly?

We are not talking about 7X57, we are talking about 8X57. There is not a huge difference between SAMMI and CIP specs for 7mm Mauser ammo. Max C.I.P. ~56Kpsi, SAAMI ~51K psi) Prvi Partisan lists both 7mm Mauser and 7X57 on their web site, assumingly for US and other markets, but if you look the specifications are the same for both, (139gr SP @ 810 M/S or 173gr @ 750 M/S).

CIP specs for both are the same, because the rounds are contemporaries made to shoot in the same rifles.

There is a huge difference in SAMMI vs CIP specs for 8mm Mauser, as I mentioned above.

Originally Posted by me

US SAMMI spec "8MM Mauser", which has a max pressure of 35K psi, and the CIP "8x57 IS" which has a max pressure of ~56K psi

In the Prvi ammo the US Spec stuff is ~250 FPS slower with the same bullet.

So yes, underpowered.

Originally Posted by GarandTd

What about Hornady 8x57 vintage match 196 grain? I believe that's full power, isn't it?

Hornady and Nosler seem to be the only US folks making "real" 8x57 ammo, Hornady has two options, a 195 hunting bullet and a 196 gr match, both @ 2500 FPS, which is pretty close to the 1933 s.S. Patrone military load.

Nosler has a 200gr AccuBond or Partition at 2475 fps, and a 180gr Ballistic tip at 2600 FPS, but they are really proud of them, at about $2.50 per round.

[GarandTd]

The Hornady Vintage Match is the only commercial 8mm ammo I can find locally and boxes of it are few and far between. If I want anything else, I have to call around and travel or order it online.