Real Life - Boxed in.

[OldMarksman]

Someone claiming to have "just seen" the "big back yard" in the evening would seem to be an danger signal.

Someone walking onto the property uninvited in the dark and coming within "Tueller" distance when I am cornered would worry me. Might well justify producing a weapon, too (lay opinion).

[Kyo]

awareness is something you can decide to have and not to have. From my own experiences and common sense, there should be NO one trying to give you a sales pitch in a parking lot in the middle of the night. A weak one at that. I have had guys come up to me to try while I was with someone and then realize that I was the wrong mark because I was aware. Good for you cause you were.
I have to work on my verbal skills in situations like that because I haven't really told anyone to stop or back up before. More like they see my face and figure it out.
I don't walk around with a gun on my hip wondering who I am going to shoot today. that is ridiculous. And I don't think I am going to be a superhero or anything either. And I don't think the OP is one for doing what he thought was best at the time. The best way to figure out why people carry is to get into a situation like that(god forbid) and be helpless.

[hogdogs]

without first waving and saying something to make me aware of their presence while they were still off my property and at a socially acceptable distance.

Even the requisite minimum... "AHEM" throat clear is an accepted method of making a civilized approach up to someone... especially on THEIR PROPERTY...
Brent

[Coyote Hitman]

... ZeSpectre is too polite to say it, so I will:

Go someplace else to fling insults. Critiques are welcome. Name-calling isn't.

MLeake, read much?

NOW before anyone gets on a high horse or soap box and mounts a tinfoil hat wearing attack...I am only doing what any prosecutor or civil attorney would do

There were no insults or name calling intended(although I can see how a fellow who overreacts to normal everyday things might see it differently), I simply disected his statements and took a line of questioning any prosecutor or litigator would use. Rambo, etc. was not directed at him as an insult. I can see how you might not understand that, though.

[koolminx]

You guy's are not supposed to be taking polite pot shots at each other... It's petty and a little rude to the rest of us.

[Pyzon]

BUT-

What could have been the result if ZeSpectre would have incorrectly assumed that this guy's intent was totally harmless, to include all the most horrible consequences we read about every day, always in some other city, always to a total stranger ?

What would all you that criticize his successful and peaceful resolution to a very scary scenario have to say if he would have guessed wrong ?

He did not draw, he did not brandish, situation resolved, end of story.

Good job, ZeSpectre. I hope if I ever face such a scene that I can be as cool and professional and enjoy the same opportunity to ask for a critique of my methods.

[pax]

Coyote Hitman,

Check your PMs.

Everyone,

Take two deep breaths and think twice before posting. A quick re-read of the Forum Rules might be in order here too. Pay special attention to Rule #3, esp the bit about "acrimonious or veiled in humor."

Disagree as vehemently as you wish about the subject at hand, but no more personal remarks will be tolerated.

pax

[cougar gt-e]

What if....

Instead of the OP being armed and aware, picture YOUR grandmother, mother, wife/GF, sister or daughter boxed in between the jeep and wall. And remember it's after dark, and a 6+ft tall scruffy looking man silently crept into the garage behind her to within 8ft before being noticed. (Note: he didn't draw attention to himself - he was noticed).

Would you all have the same feelings of good will and joy about the said scruffian?

Or would you be crying about finding a pool of blood, semen, a missing car, a ransacked house and no sign of your loved one?


Reminds me of a time I reconnected with a school buddy. He is a LEO and had 12-15 years experience at that time. He was looking at everybody, everywhere --> all the time. He would walk around corners 6' from the corner, would avoid bushes and alleys, walked down the center of the parking lot rows (where the cars drive) to maximize distance to parked cars. He even went PAST his own car and looked at it from both sides. That's when I laughed and asked why he was so paranoid. He said it's not paranoia, he sees the results of oblivious/trusting people getting robbed, stabbed, raped, beaten and killed every single day. We drove around and he pointed out 10-12 places in a couple miles where just that happened. And this is a nice area. He even said that if you asked the people in those neighborhoods about crime, they would say there was none to very little and yet...

Personally, I would have had the gun out. It's my property. I own guns and have them out and about with me - it's a constitutional right. Wouldn't have pointed it unless he violated my sphere of personal safety. By the way, 8' is a short distance and a knife wielding criminal can easily kill a person even if they have their hand on a gun in a holster. It's one step and a lunge to bury the knife in your chest/guts. Try it sometime with a dummy gun dummy knife.

To each his own. Some will live to be ridiculed here others to be mourned at the funeral.

[MLeake]

... are one of the main reasons why at least SOME MA training is a good idea. Will it make you Chuck Norris, or Chuck Liddell? No. Will it give you better odds of sidestepping an initial attack while you draw? Yes. If a side-step is impossible, could it train another viable redirect for the immediate attack? Possibly.

In other words, some training is likely to yield a small benefit, but sometimes a small benefit is all you need.

Let's say that in this particular case the scruffy guy did intend a mugging, and did have a knife.

ZeSpectre would have had a hard time side-stepping, since he was blocked in by the Jeep, its open door, and the carport wall. Side-stepping may not have been an option.

Fending the knife thrust with the offhand (ideally targeting wrist or forearm, not blade) could both unbalance the attacker just enough, and buy just enough time, to draw and fire.

Of course, ZeSpectre would have high odds of taking a nasty stab or slash to the arm. This beats having the blade meet his torso.

Any time the attacker has a knife, the odds of getting cut or stabbed are high. Any time the attacker has a gun, the odds of getting shot are high. The odds of the initial attack hitting something vital are smaller if you don't freeze in position at point of aim.

Just a thought.

[ZeSpectre]

Respectfully,
Folks, can you ease up on Coyote Hitman? While his writing style is somewhat confrontational he did bring up some valid points which I had no problem with addressing.

If, in the end, he is of the opinion that I am fearful or paranoid, he is fully entitled to his opinion and I find it informative to understand how that perception comes into being.

I think the disagreement is IMPORTANT lest we all (especially myself) get locked into a "box" in our thinking.

[MLeake]

Point taken, and it's a very good point.

My own point is that it should be possible to debate a point from either side without calling names. Doing so in an organized HS or collegiate debate would risk disqualification.

If we simply accept name calling and ridicule to take the place of debate, then we will function less like an enthusiast's forum and more like, er, Congress...

Cheers,

M

[Glenn E. Meyer]

We are watching.

So some reasonable points have been raised - let the discussion continue but with no comment that a person did wrong. Stay with a theoretical analysis.

If you don't like a person's tone - use the report, etc. No need to back and forth - we will look at it.

Glenn

[Yankee Traveler]

A little Paranoid...???

Maybe yes, maybe no...

Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean there isn't anybody out to get me. Paranoia can save your life. Better to be a paranoia statistic then a victimized statistic.

If he's crossing the street and loadly saying "Pardon me..." I'm answering with "Yeh, what can I do you out of..?" If he is less then 10 feet, and not announcing his presense, I'm telling him too back the bleep off and I'm reaching.

[comn-cents]

Yankee Traveler "Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean there isn't anybody out to get me. Paranoia can save your life."

Paranoid works in your statement but I like to say "being aware" and that's all it is. I say tomato they say tomato.

[pax]

Deleted a few off-topic comments.

Please keep your posts to discussing what was done, or how it might have been done differently. That would be on topic for strategies and tactics!

Thanks.

pax

[markj]

I am sure we all agree that it is a good thing no one was harmed in any way.

I guess that some of you do NOT understand that the OP was very likely a few seconds from grievous injury or even death.

Sounds to me that both parties were a bit startled maybe so? Doesnt sound like he was close to death as the other guy had no visible weapon.

Try this scenerio out. It is just starting to get dark out, you turn around and there is a strange man(ordinary or disheveled) 5 ft away and still moving towards you. He gives you a BS line about wanting to clean your gutters. What do you do? Even the skeptics on here would probably draw your gun.

OK, I will play along. I would have walked towards him right hand outstretched to give a shake, offer my name, listen to him attentivly. If he did anything other than shake the hand well we would shift to option 2, no body likes option 2 tho.

I still say a bit paranoid, but if it keeps you alive then go for it but I am not gonna say good job man. I would rather ask what was ya thinking letting someone get that close to ya in the first place?

[MLeake]

... for those who find ZeSpectre's response to have been "a bit paranoid," please explain why you would NOT find it unusual to have a stranger approach, silently, from behind, after dark, on your property?

No funny comments, please, just explain why you think it was an overreaction, in light of the specific situation.

Thanks.

[TailGator]

please explain why you would NOT find it unusual to have a stranger approach, silently, from behind, after dark, on your property?

That's a biggie that none of the critics have answered.

I would have walked towards him right hand outstretched to give a shake, offer my name

With the situation from the first quote, you would have closed the distance for him, and then taken one of your hands out of action, with no sense of suspicion? Honest?

[Powderman]

Something I'd like to comment on...

First, (and I must say this with overwhelming sadness) there is no such place as a safe or nice area anymore. Sometimes while on duty, I will find a nice quiet corner of the reservation, outside of the city and away from the main roads. I'll step outside and look at the absolutely gorgeous scenery; listen to the sounds of the birds and the Puyallup River close by. Depending on the time of year and if it's a sunny day out, I can see Tacobet (also known as Tahkoma, or by the more common name of Mount Rainier) gleaming in the distance.

I sit and think that man cannot possibly spoil or disrupt a portrait of sublime beauty like this one.

Then, I glance down, look at my duty belt and the Colt in the holster, feel the body temperature increase from the body armor, catch a bit of heat coming off the engine of the still-running Crown Vic, and hear a radio call from our Dispatch, PCSO, WSP, or another agency about the latest incident where one human being managed to brutalize another.

And I realize that man can and has durned well spoiled the picture already.

Here's an idea for ZeSpectre, as well as those with dark driveways. Get some strong lights with motion sensors. These will give you an edge in seeing what might be happening. Also, if the outside of the house lights up, it tells you that there is something moving out there, and should post up the alert level.

[Capt. Charlie]

Excellent post Powderman!

And as an ex back-country ranger, I know exactly where you're coming from .

[IZZY]

Och, Most of the snide negative comments come from Northern "midwest" states where crime is still lower than VIRGINIA.

( Norfolk had 40% Americanized African unemployment back in the Clinton daze...and when they cant get a job, some will turn to crime....and when there a Felon, there is no forgiveness in VA, and then a 99.9% chance they will get no job. SO back to crime...)

Burglary attempts of my families home in Norfolk 5.

Burglary attempts in Va. Beach 2.

Incidents in parking lots / gas stations etc. 1 for me and 1 for my brother.

Attempted carjackings 1 ( was driving an old caddy)

At no time was any property or lives taken.... aware is not even the word, you really do have to be a bit "sensitive". I used to employ a felon to wash my car until he cheated me. I have given a lift to 2 large colored Americans who I saw had car trouble....You ALWAYS greet people first with "how's it goin'".....polite but firm and ready to back it up.
It does not help that I am short.

VA is a Polite yet VIOLENT place.

Now living in MN, I see how complacent people are....and yet my building ( not me) was burglarized last year, and this month the doors have been showing signs of crowbars and hammers!

WAKE UP PEOPLE ! Not everyone lives in a corn field.

[skoro]

I think the detractors in this thread are focusing too narrowly on the OP's strong reaction and dismissing the reality on the ground. In his situation, I think his action was entirely appropriate. A vagrant sneaks up on him from behind in the dark. Once exposed, the guy spits out a line about yard work. The OP reacts by showing he's ready for a confrontation. He didn't imagine this creep's presence a few feet from him, approaching silently.

Where's the "paranoia?"

Anyone assuming the bum's intentions were harmless is more than likely very naive.

[ZeSpectre]

I would rather ask what was ya thinking letting someone get that close to ya in the first place?

At some point one has to stop "scanning" if one is going to ever get anything done. I'm pretty sure that those who know me will testify that I'm usually pretty alert and aware of my surroundings but leaning into a vehicle to retrieve groceries blocks sight, hearing, and thus awareness and there's no way around that.

I hadn't thought about it consciously but now that it comes up, the fact that the subject covered 30 odd feet on a pretty sharp uphill grade to get right alongside my vehicle in the brief period I was getting bags off the floor of my vehicle is, to me, yet another signal that something wasn't right about the encounter.

Also, the "lights" suggestions several people have given me are appreciated and good but there are already motion sensor lights in the carport. Unfortunately I have had to turn the sensitivity down quite a bit because various critters (raccoons and possum) kept triggering the lights all the time and annoying the neighbors. So the lights don't always come on (I've messed with them a lot and still haven't found a "happy medium").

[taz1]

wouldn't of had to feed my dogs for a cupple days.

he definately would have got to see the fun end of my gun.

not my problem if your daddy didnt teach you any better than to just walk up on someones property.

[markj]

With the situation from the first quote, you would have closed the distance for him, and then taken one of your hands out of action, with no sense of suspicion? Honest?

Yep, as I posted, if he did anything other than shake my hand, well we go to plan B. Quote it all or nothing, out of context isnt my thing.

4 dogs on the ground makes it a bit uneven on my side, or does this not seem to be a deterrent for you? Most would think so.

I would not put my hand on my weapon, would not pull it, would not let someone get that close to me, the dogs barking will let me know that I am not alone. The screams from the bloody dude will lead me to him.

Last summer late at night the dogs go off, I hit the flood that lites up the parking area and see 2 young men by my truck, they run off and get into a car drive away. I got a brand new 5 gallon gas can and a newer rubber hose. Didnt take a weapon out, didnt feel like I was in any form of danger. We all lived to see another day. Well they may have needed clean undies.....