"special" loads in "magnum" cases (.38, .44)?

[sawdustdad]

What are the concerns with using .357 cases and .44 mag cases to create low power loads? Specifically, any reason you can't use .357 cases with .38 special load data? Same with .44 mag/special. I realize the case sizes are different and this might affect powder burn rate/pressures. Is this just not advisable or is it routinely done? If done, how would you go about it?

[Sevens]

I've found two genuine issues when you go to do this. First is that the increased, extra space absolutely affects the load and especially when used in combination with a light-for-caliber bullet, you end up with something that is often FAR too light even for whatever your goal might have been. Also been my experience that a revolver and it's flash-gap leave a serious pressure relief valve which is not a good thing when you're crafting light (or TOO light) loads because it gives that needed pressure an easy escape route... which leads to a stuck bullet.

The other issue I find often is the powder position sensitivity when running just about ANY load that simply doesn't use a lot of the gargantuan available interior combustion space. The loads run erratically depending on where the powder happens to be when you squeeze the trigger. You can stand there on the range and alter the way each shot discharges & feels simply by tipping the revolver muzzle up or muzzle down. This is obviously not what I'm ever going to want.

When Hodgdon Titegroup first hit the market, some gun writers did reviews of it and claimed that it was incredibly insensitive to powder position and while I'm not a fan of Titegroup so much, I do very much agree that it's awfully good in this regard. As such, it's what I use for the light .44 Mag load I use on steel plates, 240gr LSWC at 870. Not exactly a super-light load in the opinion of many I'm sure, but it's fun to shoot from a massive 7.5" Redhawk.

IMR Trail Boss is a popular powder to use for light loads... they came up with a propellent that is fast burning but the flakes are HUGE, it's very bulky and even when you just fill an entire case with it (taking care to -NOT- compress) then it gives decent results for low pressure, light loads that are consistent. But you do indeed fill a case, IMR has actually published the technique for developing loads with it as "fill the case to the bottom of the slug taking care not to compress, then weigh this charge and consider it your max load."

[buck460XVR]

I load "special" type loads in "magnum" cases all the time for my .357s and .44s. Both for use in the revolvers and in the carbines. I make sure I use a bulky powder that is not position sensitive like Unique. Not a problem.

[Pond, James Pond]

I'd understood that one quality of the .44Mag was that it could be loaded strong as well as weak. I'd understood that it was possible to approximate the upper end of the .44 Spl range, but I've not tried it. I have .44Spl cases for that.

.357 on the other hand I had clearly understood that this was a no-no.
I may of course be wrong the .44 part too...

[sawdustdad]

Sensitivity to position of the small amount of powder in the case is one issue that I've thought about. In fact, just last week as I was loading 3.3g of Nitro100NF in a .38 special case, it occurred to me that such a small amount of powder in that case might not ignite consistently. The range proved me wrong as that load grouped very well and was fun to shoot. (or at least it seemed that way, I don't have a chrono to confirm REAL results. So may be anecdotal)

So the thought process naturally progressed...if such a small charge works OK in the .38 case, it should still work OK in the .357 case... and maybe in the .44 as well.

My motive here is to try some plinking loads in my .44 super blackhawk--so thinking I could use some .44 special data in my .44 mag cases. The alternative, of course, and perfectly acceptable, is to buy .44 special brass. But I so hate to sort .38 from .357 that I thought I could avoid the same drill with .44 brass by just using .44 mag brass for both loads... tinkering around a bit...

[FlyFish]

I've been loading the equivalent of .38 Special loads in .357 cases and the equivalent of .44 Special loads in .44 Mag cases for about 35 years, using a variety of powders and bullets. I haven't experienced any problems, and accuracy, which (as expected) is variable depending on the actual load recipe, doesn't appear to be any more variable than with full-power magnum loads. I'm told that if you really want to duplicate the velocity when using the larger case you should bump the load up by 10% or so. I'll have to try that some time.

[TimSr]

Like Flyfish, but I've only been doing it 30 years in .357 and .44. Use a fast powder made for light target loads, and you won't see much difference. Powder position is really only an issue with slow powders that are harder to ignite. The empty case space is usally only an issue with powders that like a full case, which tend to be slower powders. Bullseye was always my preferred powder for light lead loads, but Unique works well also. Even Red Dot works well. I've not much played with all these new powders though.

[Nick_C_S]

Lots of good answers already. But I'll chime in - pardoning any redundance.

What are the concerns with using .357 cases and .44 mag cases to create low power loads?

The primary concern is excessive case space internal volume. It creates a condition inherent to inconsistent ignitions and burn rates. Notice I said "inherent," I did not to say it "will;" but it does set the stage for a condition that would lend itself so. But not likely to be dangerous.

Specifically, any reason you can't use .357 cases with .38 special load data? (Same with .44 mag/special.)

Yes. To simply "move over" a 38 recipe into a 357 case will only exacerbate the aforementioned inherent problems as stated above. Results will likely be less than satisfactory. I would not recommend this.

You would need to compensate the recipe (slightly increase the powder charge) to bring the ballistic results back to the original 38-case recipe.

I realize the case sizes are different and this might affect powder burn rate/pressures.

It does. It has the net effect of slowing the powder burn rate. It would be a bit like switching Bullseye with Unique - for lack of a more technical explanation.

Is this just not advisable or is it routinely done?

Yes. And yes .

It's generally discouraged (I don't do it), but many people do it. It appears that buck460XVR does. I've read enough of his posts to know he is a thoughtful and experienced loader; so I have no doubt it works for him.

If done, how would you go about it?

I'm of the school of thought that you want to minimize superfluous case space - not increase it. So it's a practice in which I do not endeavor. IMO 38/44 Spl cases are excessively cavernous as it is. I choose not to add even more case space. In fact, I've gone in the other direction by tinkering with 38 Long Colt & 38 Short Colt cases for target loads. Let's just say it's a "work in progress" - and leave it at that; for the sake of keeping this thread pointed in the right direction.

[reloader28]

I load upper end special loads all the time in mags.
Not much recoil, accurate and more fun to shoot than heavy loads.
These are my target plinking loads.

[rclark]

With Unique at least just load a grain more. So to duplicate the .44 Special skeeter load, just load 8.5g or Unique. Works for me. I have really no reason to load 'magnum' loads in my magnums, so always downloading them to 'fun' loads. Tis the beauty of reloading!!! Load what you 'like' to shoot.

[ballardw]

Is there some reason no one is recommending to look at the low end of the loads for .357 and .44 mag? If you meet those you should be good to go.

[rclark]

low end of the loads for .357 and .44 mag?

Usually they are hotter than you want 'em to be. I like to be around 900-1000fps for .357 for example for my loads. There is absolutely no problem in loading down to say 700fps though. None what so ever. Try some Trail Boss for example to get you there, or other fast powders with lead bullets.

[sawdustdad]

That's where I am now, trying the starting loads for .44mag. The .44sp loads are lower still, so was just wondering "how low can I go?"

Thanks for all the comments and ideas. I'm going to do some more testing over the next couple weeks. I've got a variety of suitable powders (though maybe not ideal powders) and will see how it goes.

I plan to take a "work down the loads" approach.

[SSA]

A lot of this depends on the specific powder and bullet, and how light you want to go.

[sawdustdad]

Right now I only have 240g jacketed HP bullets on hand. But I have various amounts of Nitro100NF, 700x, HP-38, Unique, 800x, Autocomp, AA#7, 2400, 296, IMR4227. I need to get some lighter bullets--thinking 200g.

I normally run 296 or 2400 in my full house .44 mag rounds. After 50 rounds, my hand feels a little rubbery, and it's difficult to hold a pen and write something for an hour or so.

I'd like to be able to shoot 100 rounds or more, without this effect.

[rclark]

You can stick with 240s, just go lighter on the powder. Since you have Unique (in your above list) try the 8.5g load under 240g SWC (or your hollow points) and see what you think. It's a nice accurate load. You can go all the way down to 7.0g too if not light enough. I would think about using lead SWC bullets also as jacketed is just a waste of money (in my mind). But that is your call. HP-38/W231 is another good powder for this too on you list. 7.5g (970fps) or 8.0g (1004fps) under 240g SWC isn't bad either.

2400, 296, 4227 are really to slow for good results on the low pressure loads.
No experience with 100NF, 700x, 800x, or Autocomp.

[Nick_C_S]

You can stick with 240s, just go lighter on the powder.

My thoughts exactly. The heavier slugs are going to help keep pressures up.

[Pathfinder45]

........with rclark's post. Any load appropriate to a 45 Colt can be duplicated in a 44 magnum with a very slight reduction in powder. I helped my buddy tame his 44 magnum by using 45 Colt data as a reference. Cured his flinch by taking the ouch out of the equation and made the game a lot more fun. Allow me to comment about this:

After 50 rounds, my hand feels a little rubbery, and it's difficult to hold a pen and write something for an hour or so.

I honestly believe this is a repetitive impact injury. If you keep doing it you could develop permanent damage. I don't know how old you are, but I am turning 59. If I hammer at things with my hands the way I did when was younger, it hurts more and takes a lot longer to stop hurting. I still run some pretty warm loads through my Vaquero; maybe 4 cylinders of 255's at 1,250 is plenty. The really hot stuff? No, thank you; every shot stings and 2 cylinders later a flinch begins to develop. My standard loads are 255 handcasts at 1,000-1,100 fps and, by golly, I run a lot more for practice between 850 and 900fps. Try 5.5 to 6 grains of Titegroup or Red Dot with 240 grainers in your 44 magnum. Limit the hot loads to one or two cylinders and stop injuring yourself. Your hands need to last the rest of your life.

[NWPilgrim]

The difference in case length of Special and magnum is pretty small compared to the empty volume so I don't think the magnum case is any different than a Special case for light loads. I like 5.5 gr unique with a 240 gr lead bullet for a very light load and great accuracy, or 7.5 gr Unique for a light-medium load. Even a very dense (small volume) like W231 gives great accuracy with 7 gr under a 240 gr lead bullet, though this is more of a medium load like the 10.0 gr of Unique.

[hartcreek]

DO NOT USE 296 AND TRY AND MAKE A REDUCED LOAD.

296 is one of those powders that requires full pressure loadings. If you try and use 296 it will give you bad pressure spikes when there is an air bubble in the case. There have been numerous warnings about 296. I had not heard the warnings years ago and I was using 296 for .44 Special and Magnum so I tried reducing loads with this powder.....and instead my primers got flatter and my empties would not eject.

I still use 296 for maximum loads for my .44 Special and Magnum but use Red Dot for cowboy loads for my buntline.

[TimSr]

The old Speer manuals(9 and 10) had very reduced loading date for soft lead Speer bullets. I don't know if they still do. They also used to warn against reduced loads in JHP bullets as it could leave shed jackets in the bore. This was when JHP mean semi-jacketed. I'm curius as to what your JHPs actually are, and if anybody aware of any similar warnings for today's jacketed bullets?

[sawdustdad]

Yeah, I understand about 296 and reduced loads. Most of the manuals note this as I recall.

Hodgdon has .44 special loads for 700x, 800x and Autocomp--4.3 to 6 grains--roughly--with 800-900 fps for a 240g bullet. Was trying to ration my Unique as I'm down to less than a pound.

My indoor range prohibits lead bullets (must be plated or jacketed). My stockpile of 1000 240g JHP (speer I think, they are partially jacketed) bullets is over 25 years old. So I am just working through that. I need to order some plated bullets as I want to be able to shoot them either indoors or out. Plated not much different in price than lead from what I've seen. (I don't cast).

As for the hand situation, I found my shooting glove, and used that one time this week, and it helped--it has a padded palm. (I'm 60).

I appreciate all the ideas, cautions and comments, guys.

I am still working but I'm lucky that my indoor range is about 3 blocks from my office. So a couple times a week, I'm over there at lunch for some stress relief...

[skizzums]

I load 158gr wadcutters with .8gr of powder. It's a fun round and always makes it outta the barrel of the carbine and the snubbie. Still has enough energy to go through 2x4's too. Sounds about like a .22. That's using titegroup and Hp38. I don't how low I would have to go to get a squib load, that's as low as my powder measure will allow.

As for the lead bullet situation, just tumble powdercoat. Small investment, and the range has no reason not to accept them, the have less exposed lead than a jacketed bullet.

[TimSr]

My stockpile of 1000 240g JHP (speer I think, they are partially jacketed) bullets is over 25 years old. So I am just working through that.

Yes, those are exactly the bullets they are talking about. I will double check the manual when I get home tonight, but I believe they warned against loading them under 900 or 1000 fps or something to that effect. I specifically remember they had no .38 loads that were not +P.

[Nick_C_S]

Yes, those are exactly the bullets they are talking about. I will double check the manual when I get home tonight, but I believe they warned against loading them under 900 or 1000 fps or something to that effect. I specifically remember they had no .38 loads that were not +P.

Good catch TimSr.

Yes, the Speer 240 JHP makes a lot of barrel-bullet contact; and thus, a lot of friction. You don't not want to underload these for concerns of a stuck bullet. If you're going for a very light, reduced loading, I would recommend using lead slugs. They have less barrel friction and are better suited for the application.

To the point TimSr touched on: This phenomenon is such a concern with Speer, that they don't recommend loading their 158 JHP's or JSP's for 38 Special at all. They no longer publish load data for the combination.