Buying a SXS....

[Dave McC]

While a lot of attention on this BB has been devoted to repeaters, SXS shotguns are just plain fun. And, the better examples come as close to reliable and durable as any of the multishot arms.

SXS shotguns range from fine examples of the gunmaker's art to junk,and oft it's hard to tell which is which. Lots of old shotguns out there were usable for a while, but their safe working life has been exceeded.

OTOH, some good but not highly expensive SXS shotguns have generation, not years, left in them.

Here's a quick checklist/tips for those that want to pick up a SXS and use it.

First, MAKE SURE IT'S UNLOADED. Then...

Look over the piece for wear and damage. Check the stock at the wrist where wood meeets metal and see how they meet. Is there a gap? Cracks? Any obvious inequality at the interface? Now check the forearm for same.

Now, dismount the forearm and bbls. Check inside the forearm for corrosion.Examine the bbls closely inside and out. Outside, look for dings and maybe even a bend.Inside, look for pitting, more dings, and wear at the forcting cone. Needless to say, Twist steel and Damascus bbls are wall hangers, not shooters. And, see if the bbls have been obviously shortened. Some fools think having a hacksaw makes them a gunsmith.

Also, check and see if there's a shell length listed. Lots of older shotguns are chambered for shells shorter than 2 3/4". Shooting standard shells in a short chamber is not good for either you or the shotgun.

Check the receiver and standing breech for rust and pitting. Look the breech face over and see if the firing pin holes are peened, or worn on one side more than the other. Check the hinge pin for damage,and the hook under the bbls. Now reassemble. Unless you're either a good gunsmith yourself or reconciled to having to furtively enter a gun shop with a shoebox full of parts you cannot put back together, leave the innards alone.Been there, done that. Try the triggers, too light or too heavy may be serious problems down the road.

Holding the shotgun up to the light can show a little light between the breech end of the bbls and the standing breech. This oft indicates headspace problems. With the bbls on and locked in but with the forearm off see if the bbls can be easily twisted side to side. If not,remount the forearm and try again.

Mount the shotgun and see if it FEELS good. You may also want to measure the stock and see if it's got the right length, drop, pitch,etc.

Let's assume this piece passes all the above and the price seems reasonable. Let's also assume the stock fits fairly well and you've some experience in shooting shotguns.

So, buy it with a short return policy and hie thyself to a gunsmith you can trust. Have him/her go over the piece and alert you to any safety issues or mechanical problems. Then, and only then, take it out and shoot it with mild loads.It may be perfectly safe and effective with barnburner loads, but with the milder ones you can pay attention better to what's happening.

As for brands.....

For every Parker and AH Fox out there, there's a hundred cheapos. Some were made in Belgium with poor QC, marked with a name similiar to a famous one like W Richards or WW Green and sold for a few dollars. In between the junk and jewels are servicable but not great SXSs like the Savage, Stevens, Winchester 23s and 24s, various ancient Remingtons and Ithacas, and a host of Europeans.Field grade major brands are out there too, tho costing ten times as much as they did back in the 60s.

Some Caveats....

Best to know the seller. And, posting a query here about a particular shotgun can bring in some mighty knowing folks.

Check on whether the piece can be returned w/o penalty after a short period of time. Sometimes, a shotgun and shooter just don't mesh well.

Also, while the price and quality may be acceptable, figure out just how much it would cost to make it fit both you and the shooting you're planning on doing with it. A grouse or quail gun is way different from a waterfowl shotgun.Figure on choke and stock work 50-90% of the time. Old time shooters liked more drop in the stock than most present folks.

Good luck and good shooting...

[mcshot]

Good info Dave, I've been searching for a resonably priced SxS but the one that fits me the best is a Brazilian Boito and it seems nicely made and snaps shut like a bank vault.
The Blue Book didn't have much nice to say about it though. Also looked at a Laurona and Ugarechea (sp?) and most recently an IGA turkey gun (Brazil) below dealer cost. I want it as an upland beater and the above are full and mod or Full/Full. Unfortunately I had a pair of Ithica/SKB 100s that I got rid off as I didn't use them and wanted an Italian Weatherby Regency more.
Also have friend with an Iberia but haven't seen it yet. This one looks like it comes from good heritage.
Any Comments?
Thanks
Mac

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"In my opinion, anyone pushing through anti-gun legislation is a bloody traitor and should be sent up for treason" N.H. Stuart

[TaxPhd]

mcshot,

The Ugartechea is made in Spain, and can be either a dog or a gem. Ugartechea has been labeled as a "maker of cheap box-locks," and they have certainly made plenty of those. They also make very fine side locks at truly affordable prices.

Check out a book called "Spanish Best" for more info. And if you are unsure, have the gun checked by someone knowledgable about SXS guns.

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TaxPhd

"Those who live by the sword are probably pretty f***ing good at it."

"Instructions for a successful gunfight: Front Sight, Press Trigger, repeat
as necessary." - B. Braxton

[PJR]

Now we are getting into the real deep end of the pool. Of all the gun dealing you might do this is the one with the greatest risk and possibly the greatest reward if you know what you are doing.

Throughout history there were hundreds of side-by-side makers in England, Europe and America. The challenge is telling a Purdey from a turn-of-the-century Beglian junker. Even the experts don't get it right. A few years ago, one of the better known auction houses in England sold a hammer gun that they classified as "unknown." It turned out the gun was made by Boss and Co. -- one of the best of the lot.

There is a Westley Richards that is a best gun but there is also a W. Richards from Liverpool. Not the same guns but easily confused. Furthermore, unscrupulous makers many years ago would make guns and stamp a name that was close to that of a top maker. Not too long ago I saw a gun marked W.J. Jefferey going for a pretty hefty price. The proper spelling is W.J. Jeffrey. Inside the fake were Belgium proof marks but some counterfeiters have been known to stamp guns with fake English proofs.

With English guns, it's hard to tell the shape they are in because unlike Americans, the English frequently refinish their guns and this is readily accepted. A refinished gun does not lower the price unless the barrels have been sleeved. Condition is no measure of quality or age. The lovely side-by-side you are looking at might be 100 years old with paper-thin barrels that are out of proof. OTOH, and not wanting to contradict Dave McC, some English damascus barrels are quite safe if nitro-proofed but only with the lower pressure 2-1/2" shells common in English game guns.

Are you confused yet? Well, we've only scratched the surface.

American guns are just as confounding. Fulton, Baker, Savage, LC Smith, Ithaca (Crass, Lewis, Flues, NID,), Parker, Fox, Crescent, Stephens, Savage, Browning and Winchester, Lefever are just some of the makers you might run across. (The Brownings were made in Japan by Miroku and the late model Ithacas were made by SKB, also in Japan.) Even within certain makers the grades of guns differ. For example, a Winchester 21 is a desirable, sought after gun but the Model 24 is not.

The Europeans also made an array of guns particularly the Belgians, Italians, Germans, French and Spanish. And then they swapped guns among themselves. The over/under you'd swear is a sidelock Merkel is upon closer examination an AyA Augusta from Spain. The Parker Hale sxs are good sturdy boxlock guns that were made by Ugartechea in Spain. Incidentally, Ugartechea never made "cheap" boxlocks. Their guns are good value particularly the Parker Hales. Laurona makes a pretty good, if somewhat heavy boxlock gun that is head and shoulders above Boito. Then there is Zabala, Grulla, Garbi, Arrieta, AyA, Arrizabalaga, Kemen and other smaller concerns. (I was in Eibar with an American who knew the Spanish gun business and we walked by a little shop he'd never heard of. We went in and found some nice guns being made.)

It's enough to make a good man say "darn!" Put an "e" on that epithet and you have the Darne. An interesting French gun that doesn't break open but the receiver slides back when you pull a lever.

I've poked through all kinds of gun shops/shows looking at these guns. I've had the chance to play with them in England and Spain and I've learned a lot. The best thing that I've learned is I don't know nearly enough. I've lost out on good deals because I didn't know what I was looking at and saved myself untold heartache when I cottoned on to a shyster that was trying to put one by me. When it comes to sxs, you can't have enough knowledge.

Here's my advice if you want to take the plunge:

1) Read a lot. Best Guns (Revised and Updated) by Michael MacIntosh is probably the best single book to own because it has an overview of all the countries. Get a book of proof marks that can tell you where and when a gun was made. Amazon has Best Guns and other sxs books worth considering.

2) Get a chamber gauge and a choke gauge. In North America a lot of English guns had their chambers lengthened from 2-1/2 to 2-3/4. I've passed on a lot of guns with this handy device.

3) Be real choosy. Don't buy a gun that doesn't come close to fitting you. Restocking an old sxs is not like buying a replacement stock for an 870.

4) Find out what you like because there are lots of options: Double triggers (always preferable on Spanish guns), beavertail forends, Prince of Wales Grip, swamped rib, etc.

5) Find a gunsmith that knows doubles and don't buy any gun that doesn't have his approval.

And some sites you might find interesting are:
http://www.shootingsportsman.com (go to the BBS)
http://www.gunshop.com/index.htm (go to the BBS)
http://www.parkergun.org/

I've had great fun playing in the world of the sxs and have come to appreciate them as fine examples of the gun maker's art. They are great fun to shoot and interesting pieces to own.

Thanks Dave for opening the subject.

[This message has been edited by PJR (edited October 02, 2000).]

[Dave McC]

PJR, let's agree to disagree. Life is too short, IMO, to trust in twist and Damascus bbls.

One point that might not be obvious with doubles. For field shooting, upland and small game, the SXS may just be the best choice. I've never shot better than with a decent SXS, and thousands of good shots swear by them.

One thing about unknown makers. I had a marvelous little 12 boxlock made in 1919 by Didierfusil in St Etienne. That was close to the ideal small bird, small shot, up close shotgun. And, NOBODY has ever heard of the maker.

[PJR]

Dave:

In a recent edition of the Double Gun Journal a damascus barrel from a Parker was put through a destruction test. When it eventually let go, it was with loads that were twice the pressure of the hottest shotgun loads well into the mid 20's psi. Also, I have shot damascus guns BUT they were made by best English makers, nitro proofed, fired with only lower pressure loads and meticulously cared for.

That said there was a lot of poorly made damascus (and fluid steel barrels for that matter) that came into North America around the turn of the century mostly from Belgium. North American guns were often used in much tougher conditions than those in England and decades of hard use will take their toll on a gun. I don't disagree with anyone who decides not to shoot damascus particularly if there is any doubt about the gun's provenance. I'm just saying that in very specific circumstances with proper precautions it is possible.

Where we agree is that the sxs is the best gun choice for upland game. The smaller gape (angle when open), the lighter weight and the overall "ergonomics" of a sxs make a properly fitted sxs a delight to use in the field. I also like double triggers and a straight grip which all have benefits when hunting.

[Dave McC]

PJR, we'll just agree to disagree on those old bbls, tho I certainly can see your point.

I've always wondered why single triggers became popular, not only do two triggers give an instant choice of choke, but a well made SXS with two triggers is as reliable and durably a shotgun as any ever amde, and maybe more.

I'm not sure I can quantify why a SXS is such a great tool, compared to the other types, but I know it is. And this applies to SXS shotguns other than the Game Gun style. Heavier duck and goose guns are a good lb or more heavier than upland guns of the same gauge, and work marvelous well. I've even seen a few buck and ball SXSs,set up with sights so that one bbl is loaded with a slug, one with 00 or 000,and used for thick cover deer or bear repellent.

And the CAS folks have shown that a SXS alley cleaner is not totally obsolete.

[PJR]

Single triggers were developed for those who want a faster second shot. The sxs that are set up for live pigeon most often have a single trigger. I don't care for them in a sxs for the reasons previously mentioned. I like having two choke options just by switching triggers. Double triggers are more reliable particularly in sidelock guns and especially in Spanish guns. The Basques never seemed to get a single trigger to function as well as the twin triggers.

Some shooters say they cannot get used to the usual sxs set up which is auto safety and two triggers. I compare the transition to moving between a automatic and a standard transmission. You might miss a shift at first but once you get used to it, you can drive just as fast if not faster. I will say though that double triggers are easier to use when the gun has a straight grip or at most a very slight pistol grip.

[Dave McC]

I always thought setting up an SXS so that one fired the rear trigger first and moved the finger forward as the shotgun recoiled backward was fastest, but I must be of the minority opinion.

And, I can't see how a single trigger can be faster,since it takes some time for the gun to come out of recoil. But, to each his own.

[TaxPhd]

PJR,

My bad. You got me on my comment about Ugartechea and cheap boxlocks. I was quoting Terry Wieland (author of "Spanish Best"), unortunately, I got the quote out of context. Wieland was lamenting the fact that he had written an article in which he called Ugartechea a "maker of cheap boxlocks" - which was info. told to him by an official of DIARM(perhaps out of jealosy?).

Anyway, Ugartechea is definately first rate (and smart enough to have never gotten involved in the DIARM debacle).

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TaxPhd

"Those who live by the sword are probably pretty f***ing good at it."

"Instructions for a successful gunfight: Front Sight, Press Trigger, repeat
as necessary." - B. Braxton

[PJR]

TaxPhd

No problem. I remembered the quote from Wieland's book, too.

The Ugartechea family has always tended to go it's own way in the confusing world of Basque gunmaking. It might not have only been the DIARM people who made that suggestion. There were other gunmakers who felt that Ignacio Sr. was a little too close to Generalissimo Franco for the comfort of the fiercely independent Basques.

I have had the privilege of touring the Ugartechea operation in 1998 and meeting Ignacio Sr. He is an amiable and dignified man who is very proud of his guns.

Ugartechea has one of the larger gun manufacturing facilities in Eibar and make a wide range of guns from boxlocks all the way to top grade sidelocks.

[Dave McC]

Bringing this back up for Bobstreit....