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Old February 15, 2010, 02:44 PM   #1
LouisianaMan
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.38 S&W 200g bullet penetration tests

Update, 15 FEB 10, for heavy bullet fans.

TARGET: 6 water-filled jugs, backed by 2x12.

RANGE: approx 10 feet

GUNS: S&W Mod. 32-1 (2") and S&W 33-1 (4"). Chronography done from 4" bbl. approx 3" from muzzle.

LOAD:
a. BULLET: Lee GB mold 358430, LRN, 197-98g with 50-50 WW-Pb + 4 oz. tin per 20 lbs. alloy. Estimated BHN = 7-9. COL: 1.270"

b. POWDER: Win 231. Charge: 2.7g. My charge IS IN EXCESS OF RECOMMENDED LOAD FROM LYMAN 49th. USE A RELOADING MANUAL, CHRONO, etc. TO WORK UP YOUR OWN LOAD. In previous tests, I have noted that my lot of Win231 appears to be slower than average, which lot variation has been noted by Ed Harris as characteristic of this powder. Therefore, I start with recommended data and then work it up over the chronograph to vels similar to published velocities. Ed considers 700fps max for a 200g bullet in this gun.

CHRONO RESULTS (10-shot string): LO 624.4, HI 651.9, AVG 639.0, ES 27.54, SD 8.54.

PENETRATION OUTCOMES:

1. 4" bbl. chrono'ed for this shot at 662.7fps on this shot. Bullet tracked straight thru 2 jugs, then began curving down and left. Broke extreme bottom of 5th jug and did not impact 6th jug. Bullet not recovered.

2. 2" bbl. chrono'ed for this shot at 624.2fps. Bullet tracked straight thru 2 jugs, began curving down & left. Came out extreme bottom left of jug #4 and failed to hit #5. Bullet not recovered.

I'll update tonight with photos of loaded 161g and 198g cartridges, as well as target patterning of chrono'ed strings. Also ME and free recoil calculations. Stay tuned! Times are tough for milk jugs. . .
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Old February 15, 2010, 08:08 PM   #2
LouisianaMan
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BTW, for those wondering. . . I chose this caliber for my wife & girls because I could relatively easily obtain 8 practically new guns of the exact same pattern--except 2" for car or purse, 4" for HD. Also, the frame fits them beautifully, 20 oz steel a perfect size/weight, and recoil/report are nice (BIG issue for one daughter), and I've now removed all training glitches such as which way the cylinder rotates on this one, pull/push/press cylinder latch, speedloader interchangeability, etc. etc. If I could have gotten 4 ea. Chief's Spls, plus 4 ea. J-frame 4" barrel S&W's in .38 SPL, I would have. My girls have small hands & can't adequately handle a K-frame.

ME & free recoil calculations in 20 oz. gun for .38S&W:
Factory: 146g @ 685: ME 152 fpe. Recoil: 3 fpe, 12 fps.
Handload: 161g @ 709 (see yesterday's post): 180 fpe. Recoil: 4 fpe, 13 fps.
Handload: 198g @ 639fps (see yesterday's post): 180 fpe. Recoil: 4 fpe, 15 fps.

BTW, I've also done these tests already with .38SPL with LSWC-K, and posted in several places. Here's an excerpt:
" #1: Colt Detective Special .38 SPL, 2" bbl, with 200g Mt. Baldy LSWC-K, meplat .280 (I think) seated deep and crimped over front shoulder, with 3.4g Win231. (This load and gun previously chrono'ed at 718 fps, thereby trying to ensure similarity to original factory ballistics of 770 fps from 6" bbl. It is modified from "Mikey's load" of 3.8g of the same powder.)
RESULTS: penetrated all 6 jugs and struck nose-first into a 2" x 12" placed behind the last jug, knocking a hole in the board up to the bullet shoulder, then falling out onto the ground while knocking down the 15" long board. Bullet path was arrow-straight, exiting through the tape on the back side of the sixth jug at same relative location as it struck the first jug. All caps remained intact. First two jugs failed at the circular "dimple" molded in the side; all others bulged the dimple outward without causing it to fail. After impact, the row of taped-together jugs toppled over and fell off the two 2"x4" boards I'd placed them upon."

NOTE: all milk jugs are 6" wide, so my .38 S&W snubbie LRN penetrated 24" and the 4" with LRN penetrated 30". The .38 SPL 2" with LSWC-K penetrated 36" with some power to spare. So did my LSWC .38 S&W 161g bullet (see yesterday's post). Other tests with 200g LRN in .38 SPL demonstrated similar deviation in penetration path as did the .38 S&W LRN. One theory about the old Super Police 200g LRN was that this tumbling increased effectiveness vs. straight LRN penetration, which tends to poke a self-sealing hole to some degree.

I'll soon try 200g LFPs (a .35 Remington bullet) and in August will receive Landric's group buy LSWC. I'll post those too, after testing. Not sure about the LFP, but the LSWC will doubtless penetrate straight.

See photos below, which include my personal primary (625-7, 45LC), both secondaries (M-67 and M-15, 38SPL), Colt D.S. .38 SPL, as well as one of four sets of M-32-1 and M-33/-1 in .38S&W.
Ammo shown: .45LC factory GDHP, 255g LFP handload. .38SPL 158g LHP+P "FBI Load," handloaded 200g LSWC-K, 200g LRN, .38 S&W 161g LSWC and .38 S&W 200g LRN.
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Old February 19, 2010, 11:38 AM   #3
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Back years ago I loaded some 200 gr 38 Specials for a Bowling Pin Shoot put on my Ozark Shooters Supply. Not a good choice, but all I had at the time was a M67 S&W. I had the fastest time for one string until Bill Wilson showed up.
WOW watching him shoot a 1911 was impressive. That was pre Wilson Combat days.
Another guy had a 357 Auto Mag. It was a little hard on the Bowling Pins. They came closer to exploding than being knocked over.

I guess falling plates have pretty much replaced bowling pins today.
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Old February 19, 2010, 06:23 PM   #4
LouisianaMan
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I never have shot competitive pistol other than at some nearby CAS stuff when I was stationed at West Point, NY. And I wasn't really even competing there, just having fun shooting traditional weapons in a traditional style.

My next shooting (ad-)venture is to learn Applegate- and/or Fairbairn/Sykes-style point shooting. Seems a perfect match for my interest in using old calibers for their original purposes. . . .
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Old February 19, 2010, 08:55 PM   #5
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LM I would say that the old 200 grain load is a fun practice round , but if its patterned after the old Highway load we carried back in the 60's it ain't worth a damn as a stopping round, unless it hits bone, then it tends to crumble the bg quick fast and in a hurry, for a hand loaded SD round its hard to beat the wadcutter
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Old February 19, 2010, 10:33 PM   #6
LouisianaMan
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Leadbutt,
Thanks for "weighing" in!

I'm not looking at anything authoritative, just going by what I think I remember reading over the past some months. . .but I think there may have been several different .38SPL loads with 200g LRN bullets.
1) 600fps
2) 700fps
3) 730fps
4) 770 fps.

Number 3 may have been the same as #2 or #4, just stating a slightly different velocity, perhaps due to different barrel length, etc.

I think the "Highway Patrol" load is what you remember, and I believe it was #4 above (or maybe it only reached 730fps). The "Super Police" load was for .38 S&W, and was much slower--I *believe* about 600fps, like the slowest .38 SPL load.

Anyway, with that seat-of-the-pants review of this round's history, I would be interested in anything else you remember hearing, seeing or experiencing with the load you mention. Do you think it was the mid- to high 700s, or was it a very mild slowpoke like the 600fps load?

On my other thread about .38 S&W penetration tests, I just laid out a bunch of suppositions and guesswork--little more than that--about what may have been the reason that some seemed to feel the 200g in .38 SPL was effective--or at least more effective than normal 158g LRN. I won't repeat it all, but if you in fact used the faster load & it was viewed as ineffective, then perhaps the slower load was "better" because it was slow, tumbled upon penetration, and therefore caused a lot of damage? If you used the 600fps load & it was viewed as ineffective, maybe the faster load was the one that many seemed to believe was better than 158s?

I'll stop guessing now & see if any of this rings a bell for you.
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Old February 19, 2010, 10:53 PM   #7
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I must agree with leadbutt about the wadcutter for self defense. At 148 grains it has higher velocity than a 200 grain round, and cuts a very decisive hole in its target. I played around with heavy bullets in various calibers many years ago, and found that there seems to be a balance between bullet weight and velocity in handguns that determines the effectiveness of a round. And the heavier bullets can produce more felt recoil in lighter firearms.
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