Training Corner Cases

[jephthai]

So I've been dutifully working on dry-firing exercises at home. I'm also looking at building a "training plan". Seems when I get to the range, I forget all the things I was planning on working on. So I'm trying to take notes when I think of something I need to train.

How often do you train "unusual circumstances"? Lots of the books talk about practicing with your weak hand, etc. It just struck me last night... I never practice with my left eye instead of my right eye. Just how exotic should these preparations get?

And, what proportion of my training should that be? If I practice from weird positions more often than normal positions, how does that impact my skills? If I should practice doing things with my strong side, the right eye, and a proper weaver stance to get muscle memory... doesn't training deviant circumstances threaten that muscle memory?

Anyone else think about this much?

-Jephthai-

[newerguy]

I have taken some flak for this before, but I don't think there is a whole lot of value in civilians training for exotic situations such as weak hand clearance/reloading/draw, and I see only slightly more value in training for weak hand shooting. Basically, the reason for weak hand shooting is so that, if you are so badly injured that you can't shoot strong hand, you can still shoot. Civilians without really good training (and not just firearms training, but physical training that involved conditioning to deal with pain and stress, I'd bet many boxers, football players, and college+ athletes might be able to transition to such a level easier than most), for the most part, are going to be out of the fight if they are shot, or have a tendoncut with a knife.

I'm not saying you should be, I'm saying that once you know you are hit, you are probably done. Therefore, your limited training time is better devoted to helping you learn and practice skills you are more likely to be able to use in combat.

My list of those critical skills would include: finding cover, two hand shooting (flash sight picture), strong hand shooting (flash sight picture), point shooting, shooting from cover/concealment, shooting from the ground, contact distance shooting, shooting while backing up, draw and fire from concealment. After that, shooting while moving (other than backwards), fault clearance (if you carry an auto) and speed reloads. Those last ones are skills that might be nice to have, but probably aren't going to come up in a civilian shooting, if you run dry and or have a malfunction, you are probably done, unless you are behing cover.

Military and police have a higher likelyhood of being involved in protracted shootouts (like three seconds instead of two in the case of police), having to reload, having to advance instead of retreat, and being precluded from retreating. They also train better than most civilians, and military training from day one is about getting people to fight while in pain and stress.

[jephthai]

I have taken some flak for this before, but I don't think there is a whole lot of value in civilians training for exotic situations such as weak hand clearance/reloading/draw, and I see only slightly more value in training for weak hand shooting.

That does sound like you're going against the grain... I have read several books targeting the home defender, and they do tend to encourage at least weak-hand training, point shooting, dealing with bad stances/grips, no glasses, etc. These seem like likely circumstances for bump-in-the-night situations to me.

I would be interested if anyone has statistics on self-defense situations requiring more exotic skill sets. I know most home invasions result in no shots fired. It also seems like most home invaders don't carry guns... Yet, I'd hate for the common "Protect yourself from Murphy's law -- what you don't train for is what will happen" advice to come true for me.

But your point is well taken -- I'm not training for clearing houses in Baghdad, fending off special forces, or anything half as exciting as that. In fact, my preference is never to have any "excitement", if it can be avoided ;-).

-Jephthai-

[pax]

Is it needful? Unless you are perfect and live in a perfect world, yes, your defensive plans should include methods for coping with injuries.

Not all injuries happen during the deadly force event, either.

During this past year, three of my friends have gotten injuries that kept them from shooting with a "normal, two-hand hold." One friend has a torn rotator cuff in his right shoulder - he's looking at probable surgery followed by six months of rehab, with no right-handed shooting during that time and limited use of his arm for the foreseeable future. Another friend was in an accident and damaged both her wrists, leading to multiple surgeries and extended rehab. Of course at first she could shoot with neither hand, but because the surgeries were more than six months apart, as she began the healing process there came a point where she was able to shoot with one hand only. Another of my friends endoed an ATV early this summer, shattering his arm.

Should these folks all forego carrying a defensive handgun? I don't think so, and neither did they. They're all wearing casts and slings and braces and such, and as such, look like easy prey right now. And they all need to continue their normal lives, going places just like they did before they got injured.

Should they carry defensive handguns they don't know how to use safely or efficiently? Silly question.

Fortunately, all three already knew how to shoot. Two of them were well-practiced in one handed firearms skills, and so took only a single afternoon after their injuries to reassess their newly-limited capabilities and decide how to proceed. The third ... well, the third could already shoot one handed, but had a heckuva time learning the one handed load/unload/reload/malf clearance sequences. Managed it in the end but the journey wasn't fun; it is difficult to learn new material when you're in pain, after all.

How often does such stuff need to be practiced? That depends. For me, I practice a little one-hand-only material every time I go out, just as part of the routine. The basic one-handed gun manipulation skills (drawing, loading, unloading, reloading, malf clearances) I practice two or three times a year, simply to refresh my memory about how to do them safely and efficiently.

I would NOT recommend practicing one-handed gun manipulations unless and until you have had someone show you how to perform them safely, and have that person watch over you for safety while you learned how to do them with an empty gun.

Will learning one-handed skills damage your ability to shoot two-handed, or develop bad habits? Nope, quite the opposite. Once I got serious about learning to shoot well with either hand, I found that the effort of schooling my left trigger finger to be as accomplished as my right one actually taught me a lot about the skill itself. I became a better right-handed shooter as a result of learning to shoot left-handed.

Remember, the basics of good shooting are always the same. No matter what you are doing, the gun must be aligned on target at the moment the hammer falls, or you won't hit. The specific stance is a variable but the related constant is that you always need to provide a solid platform which allows you to have the gun aligned on target at the moment the hammer falls. A smooth trigger press means you don't jerk the gun out of alignment at the moment the hammer falls. Whenever you practice shooting, whether you are shooting conventionally or non-conventionally, you must achieve these basics. Getting better in these basics non-conventionally means that you will have a more solidly-grounded understanding of where your personal limits are and what you must do in order to achieve your hits, no matter how your body is positioned while shooting.

To sum up: yep, you need to learn this stuff. Nope, it won't damage your current level of shooting ability. Have someone show you how to do it safely, and practice it often enough that you'll remember how to do it even if you're in pain from a newly-set broken arm.

pax

[pax]

Oh, one more related note: You don't have to get injured in order to need to shoot one-handed.

If you have small children, for example, many home defense scenarios would require having one hand free to shove a child down to safety, or to hold onto a young child so you know where he is as you move behind cover in the safe room.

Want to hunker down behind a barricaded door, and call the cops? Planning to put the gun completely down while you dial? Or will you keep the gun in one hand ....?

pax

[threegun]

I have taken some flak for this before, but I don't think there is a whole lot of value in civilians training for exotic situations such as weak hand clearance/reloading/draw, and I see only slightly more value in training for weak hand shooting. Basically, the reason for weak hand shooting is so that, if you are so badly injured that you can't shoot strong hand, you can still shoot. Civilians without really good training (and not just firearms training, but physical training that involved conditioning to deal with pain and stress, I'd bet many boxers, football players, and college+ athletes might be able to transition to such a level easier than most), for the most part, are going to be out of the fight if they are shot, or have a tendoncut with a knife.

I'm not saying you should be, I'm saying that once you know you are hit, you are probably done. Therefore, your limited training time is better devoted to helping you learn and practice skills you are more likely to be able to use in combat.

WOW! No flak just wow.

Jeph, Unless you plan on giving up once injured you had better train for Mr. Murphy "What can go wrong will go wrong at the worst possible time". Being able to function (not going to crap) after being hit will be much easier if you are prepared. Mental preparation for injury is the most important thing in my book. Being able to make combat hits left handed could save your life and is what I consider the most important skill. Important but less likely to be needed things like one handed jam clears and reloads should also be practiced a bit.

Practice them enough so that A. You can make combat hits B. You can smoothly transition to weak hand if the need arise.

Have a friend say a code word which puts you into injury mode. Use caution though as one armed reloading usually puts the muzzel sideways. Then complete the course of fire.

[Lurper]

You should train with your strong and weak hand every time you train. Pax sums it up as well as anyone else could. It is a necessary skill.
Practice while holding your cell phone in your weak or strong hand. Practice with one arm dangling. The main thing to remember is: where the sights are, the bullet will hit. As Pax said, if you have the sights aligned, grip and stance are secondary. Practice multiple shot strings with either hand as well. While a skill worth knowing, one handed reloads are not something you need to practice that often provided that you can do them correctly.

You should strive to get lead on the target quickly no matter what grip/stance/hand you use.

[jephthai]

Not all injuries happen during the deadly force event, either.

Thanks for that input -- I hadn't considered that at all. At first blush, it does indeed sound unreasonable that I might find myself in protracted battle zones.

But it is likely that I will have deteriorated health. I also appreciate the idea about re-evaluating firearms capabilities when faced with a substantial injury. I will remember that for the future.

Once I got serious about learning to shoot well with either hand, I found that the effort of schooling my left trigger finger to be as accomplished as my right one actually taught me a lot about the skill itself.

This has me quite interested to find out what sorts of insights that leads to. I keep reading about marksmanship, but even in my dry-firing I've observed aspects of my (lack of) form that I don't think I've found in books.

You should train with your strong and weak hand every time you train.

Thanks... I will definitely incorporate it into my training. Do you spend a significant portion of your time on this, or just a token effort? I.e., if I'm going out to burn 200 rounds, how many should I dedicate to my weak hand? I have a revolver, and so far I have divided things up with a few different ranges, a mix of SA and DA, etc. But I'd like to get more organized.

I feel like I should consciously dedicate a "cylinder or few" to the weak hand... some to one-handed with my strong hand, but continue to relegate the majority (80%?) to "standard" form (both hands, weaver stance, etc.).

I'm really motivated more by self defense than target shooting performance[1]...

-Jephthai-

[1] - Of course, the target shooting aspect is getting more appealing as time goes on

[Tim Burke]

I'm not saying you should be, I'm saying that once you know you are hit, you are probably done.

Mindset is critical; I don't think this quote demonstrates the proper mindset.
There are many examples of people suffering serious, crippling and even what would ordinarily be described as lethal wounds who stayed in the fight, prevailed, and survived. Hits to the arms in gunfights are common, needing to use a hand in combat is common. You need to be able to run the gun one handed.
Most people that get shot with handguns survive. One big exception: execution shots to the head. How do you avoid those? Stay in the fight!

[Tanzer]

Definitely be able to shoot while backing up, shooting directly from the moment the barrel clears the holster. Definately learn how to regain control if someone makes a move for your weapon.

[SpectreBlofeld]

Practicing with weak hand is important, if for no other reason than to be able to shoot from cover that is on your right...

[DonR101395]

I believe Pax summed it up nicely. I'm currently starting to train more dominant hand only shooting and one handed malfunction/reloading drills with a possible shoulder surgery coming in the near future to my support shoulder. I also put about 20% of my training effort into training support side drills. I've got this weird eye thing that has started in the last year or two. Whichever side I'm shooting with becomes my dominate eye. It started as both eyes "fighting" for dominance and I would have to blink the offhand eye to straighten them out, then it morphed into gun in left hand left eye captures the sights, gun in right hand right eye captures the sights. My offhand shooting has improved as a result. I'm sure it's not unique to me, but I've never heard of it happening before.
BTW, I shoot both eyes open.

[newerguy]

Mindset is critical; I don't think this quote demonstrates the proper mindset.

I don't think the mindset that puts people out of the fight after being shot is the proper mindset. I think my comment reflects the most likely outcome when your average weekend gunslinger gets shot. They go down, and they are out of the fight. As I said, if you get military or some LE training, you are in a much better position to overcome the pain and shock and remain in the fight. However, I think it is unrealistic to assume that most regular people are going to. The military puts a lot of effort into instilling that mindset, and it's not just the psychological conditioning, but the intense and protracted PT and physical conditioning that trains soldiers to overcome pain and discomfot to complete their objectives.

Maybe I'm the only one who thinks the average person's training time is better spent getting good at the fundementals of combat shooting, which I agree include strong hand (one handed shooting), point shooting, and barricade shooting, as well as drawing from concealment, and two hand shooting. I think it reduces the changes of you being hit in the first place, and it's much more likely to be required than many of the exotic techniques people worry about.

If you had a great deal of training time and resources, then it's fine to learn all the other stuff (the idea that the average civilian gun owner will actually find themselves reloading under fire while wounded, and then returning effective fire represents an unrealistic view of how people resond to injury and stress, and I just don't think the facination with skills like that is warrented). If you have real combat training (like military training), it's entirely different, but then you aren't asking for this advice.

Double action revolver shooting requires a lot of practice to get good enough at. I still think that should be the first priority, to the exclusion of those more exotic and less useful skills.

Obviously I am in the minority, and maybe the only one here who feels that way, which means you should probably go with the majority.

[skeeter1]

When I was (considerably) younger, I could shoot very well with my weak hand as well as sight with my left eye. Somehow over the years, I've lost the ability to do that. I can still shoot one-handed, but only with my right arm. Ditto goes for sighting. It strikes me that those are skills that you won't keep if you don't practice regularly. It's not like learning to ride a bicycle.

[threegun]

Newerguy,

I don't think the mindset that puts people out of the fight after being shot is the proper mindset. I think my comment reflects the most likely outcome when your average weekend gunslinger gets shot. They go down, and they are out of the fight

First you said that there isn't a whole lot of value in civilians learning to shoot weak handed. Then you say mindset isn't to blame when they give up after being injured. I believe that proper training reduces the chances that they give up after sustaining an injury. Proper mindset is a must as well. If you freak out or aren't prepared skill wise you are done.

A good friend of mine suggested that if I am not prepared to hold my guts in with one hand and shoot with the other that my mindset is not right.

Be prepared to be injured. Be prepared to fight through the injury.

[jephthai]

I think my comment reflects the most likely outcome when your average weekend gunslinger gets shot. They go down, and they are out of the fight.

Hopefully, the average weekend home-invader does the same thing!

I've read some first-person accounts where injuries weren't really noticed until after the fact; or surprise at the inability to move an arm, and not understanding it until afterwards. I'd hate to find myself lucid and realize I never trained to use that other arm .

I appreciate the exchange in this discussion so far. It's been very thought-provoking for me.

-Jephthai-

[ActivShootr]

Pax nailed it. Anyone who carries a firearm should learn to shoot their best with either hand or eye.

[Samurai]

As always, I agree with pax.

However, there is something to be said about "bread and butter." Most people (I have found), who enjoy training for those "exotic" situations will often devote an inordinate amount of time training for those situations, to the detriment of their more fundamental training. I see this in martial arts all the time. People want to train the flying, twisting, flipping, back-spin leaping kick of doom, but they won't spend any time at all training the basic side-block and reverse-punch. The side-block and reverse-punch are a fighter's "bread and butter;" they are the moves that will be called for 90% of the time. Statistics and probability therefore dictate that a trainer should spend the majority of his/her time on this basic combo.

I tend to think of pistol fighting the same way. Pax is definitely right: You should know how to shoot one-handed, and you should think about what happens if "Murphy" strikes. But, do not do so to the detriment of your most basic training. Practice basic firing and site alignment. Practice dry-firing. Practice the tap-rack, and the partial-feed jam clear. Practice basic draw-and-fire techniques. When things go wrong, these techniques are the ones that you will need to know FIRST.

Then, if you have any time left over, train in the more "exotic" scenarios...

[DougO83]

I agree with alot of what's being said. We owe it to everyone around us to as proficient as possible with our weapons. The responsibility demands it. I practice all kinds of 'off-the-wall' situations, but I play paintball so I have an effective medium to work out details. I think some of the most important aspects are: weak-hand/eye shots, cover, one-hand fire, target determination, speed load, and engaging multiple targets. That's just my .02

[newerguy]

First you said that there isn't a whole lot of value in civilians learning to shoot weak handed. Then you say mindset isn't to blame when they give up after being injured.

That's not at all what I am saying. I did say that I don't think you need worry about shooting weak handed. That would be a low priority skill for me. I think your training time would be better spend on the skills that are more likely to be needed, and more likely to work.

I also didn't say that mindset wasn't to blame for people giving up when wounded. It is. I think that the vast majority of people will require a great deal of real and intensive training (not just handgun training, but PT) to overcome the natural reaction to be taken out of action by a serious or ultimately leathal wound.

[threegun]

I did say that I don't think you need worry about shooting weak handed. That would be a low priority skill for me.

Why would it be a low priority skill for you? Arms are commonly hit in shootouts.

I think your training time would be better spend on the skills that are more likely to be needed, and more likely to work.

Nobody is advocating giving exclusive training time to weak hand/eye skills. One thing is for sure, if you strong arm is incapacitated, weak hand will be needed and if you devoted appropriate time to the skill set, it will work just fine.

I think that the vast majority of people will require a great deal of real and intensive training (not just handgun training, but PT) to overcome the natural reaction to be taken out of action by a serious or ultimately leathal wound

How do you train your mind to accept the pain and shock of having a bullet pass through it?

For me its just accepting that I might be injured. Prepare the skill set needed to fight through the injury. Turn the pain and fear into anger and a desire to not allow my opponent victory without a price.

Nobody will truly know until a bullet passes through them. Prudent folks will put all the advantages in their corner in advance.

[jephthai]

How do you train your mind to accept the pain and shock of having a bullet pass through it?

For me its just accepting that I might be injured. Prepare the skill set needed to fight through the injury. Turn the pain and fear into anger and a desire to not allow my opponent victory without a price.

I have never been shot. I had two thoughts when I read this:

(1) Every major pain I've felt so far has not incapacitated me immediately. Trauma and shock (yes, I've been in shock) increased over time until I was incapacitated. I don't know if bullet wounds are magically different, and that's why I read every "this is what it felt like to get shot" story I can find. My hope is that there are seconds or minutes of usable reaction time.

(2) If I can't know how I'll respond until it happens, I don't want to be caught with my mental pants down, not knowing what to do with those potential several seconds of usefulness. If those few seconds can be used to save my wife and child(ren) from unspeakable things... I'm willing to devote 20% of my training time to it.

-Jephthai-

[DougO83]

I do remember the 2 times I have been shot. The first came as an absolute surprise (gross negligence on other party's part) so shock hit pretty quickly. The second time, I knew it was coming so I had time to 'prepare' mentally. I would say I was affected a lot less severly by the second shooting than the first. I already knew what a gunshot felt like and, though there was still that holy [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color], they shot me feeling, I managed to control myself well enough to survive and protect myself and those who were with me. Also, I have been told that some forms of martial arts like Tai Chi are effective for pain management and help in teaching control...Just something to keep in mind...

[Dwight55]

Jephthai wrote: "So I've been dutifully working on dry-firing exercises at home. I'm also looking at building a "training plan". Seems when I get to the range, I forget all the things I was planning on working on. So I'm trying to take notes when I think of something I need to train."

Just a few quick notes for you, Jephthai, . . .

1) regardless of how deep or shallow, how much or how little you train, . . . when the stuff is dripping off the fan, . . . you will react exactly as you have trained. Everyone does, . . . period.

Therefore:

2) practice those things that have the higher percentage of need: and in the natural order of things, that would be, . . .

Unholstering: I saw a guy once spend 3 full minutes trying vainly to dislodge his S&W .45 from an Uncle Mike's IWB holster. You won't live long enough in a fire fight like that. Practice getting that thing from safe and tucked away out of sight, . . . to up, safety off and taking up the slack in the trigger.

Acquiring the target: practice in normal daylight if you are "out and about" mostly in the day, . . . put your sunglasses on at the indoor range to simulate some degree of night time or twilight. Remember: hitting the target with one .22 rimfire beats even 6 close misses from a .454 Casull.

Stance: where are you most likely to need it??? If you say Wally World parking lot, . . . practice getting behind a car, . . . Mr. Weaver won't care that you used the Ford stance to better protect yourself.

Hand: most of your practice should be your strong hand, . . . but the muscle memory built into the weak hand won't cross breed with the muscle memory in the strong hand. They'll remain indigent to their respective locations.

Clearing malfunctions: know what to do, . . . and practice doing it. Put a dummy round into your pocket with some loose rounds, . . . load a mag without noticing where it is, . . . practice clearing that "misfire". Load up several mags, . . . but make a couple of them "short" by 4 or 5 rounds, . . . and dont look at em as you shoot em, . . . train your hands to clear and reload that weapon with your eyes still on the bg, . . . target, . . . whatever your shot focus is.

The idea is to practice what MAY HAPPEN so that when it does, . . . you won't have to appoint some committee of hands, arms, fingers and ears to sit down and figure out, . . . duhhhhh, what'll we do now coach???????

Again, . . . you will react exactly under duress, . . . as you have trained for duress.

May God bless,
Dwight

[threegun]

A+