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September 12, 2017, 10:07 PM | #26 | |
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COST. Any replacement for the AR not only need to be as effective, it needs to be as cheap, or governments won't buy it. And, why should they??? Remember that there are two competing schools of thought when it comes to military weapons. One is "give our boys the best" and the other is "what ever does the job and is affordable/ cheapest" Most of the time, the $ wins
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September 12, 2017, 11:30 PM | #27 |
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It depends whether you are talking current popular firearms, or
leading edge technology. The ARs are popular, and that's unlikely to end soon, but leading edge tech is in bullpups. While there are some nice bullpups here, now, personally, I want the designs to mature, before choosing a new platform. A popular part of ARs is their custom ability. You can purpose build them for a variety of tasks, which is considerably harder, with proprietary brand bullpups. |
September 12, 2017, 11:30 PM | #28 | ||
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When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
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September 13, 2017, 12:06 AM | #29 |
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A person can put one of decent accuracy and quality together on the kitchen table.
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September 13, 2017, 12:22 AM | #30 |
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Wife got mad when I did kitchen table build last year so I moved it to a folding card table, LOL
AR's are going to be around longer than I will! |
September 13, 2017, 07:58 AM | #31 | ||
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Ultimately, we're likely to see bullpups become an evolutionary dead-end. There just seem to be too many difficult-to-overcome compromises (ease of ambidextrous use, ergonomics, speed of reload, modularity, etc.). Perhaps I'll be proven wrong. |
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September 13, 2017, 08:04 AM | #32 |
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Bullpups:
I can't bring myself to shoot a gun that puts the receiver under my face, no matter how safe they are in reality. |
September 13, 2017, 08:28 AM | #33 | |
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With all the money people spend on linear brakes and "blast diverters", I wonder how punishingly unpleasant it would be to fire a 5.56 with one's face that close to the muzzle. The design also looks as if the barrel can't be free floated. I agree that the AR in out market is to rifles what the 1911 was to pistols, the Remington 700 was to bolt action rifle builds or the Chevrolet small block was to automotive hobbyists. As a subjective matter, I also note that for me the government 20 inch barrel configurations are remarkably comfortable, handy and reasonably light items.
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September 13, 2017, 10:42 AM | #34 | |
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"Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk! |
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September 13, 2017, 02:06 PM | #35 | |
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September 13, 2017, 02:09 PM | #36 | |
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Last edited by hdwhit; September 13, 2017 at 02:37 PM. |
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September 13, 2017, 02:09 PM | #37 |
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When the government tells you it is...
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September 13, 2017, 02:11 PM | #38 | |
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Who? And under what circumstances. |
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September 13, 2017, 02:34 PM | #39 |
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Classic ongoing Product Improvement Program, PIP.
As such, like cars and other hard goods where new technology is rolled into a model on a recurring basis, the AR will be here for probably longer than anyone reading this.
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September 13, 2017, 02:36 PM | #40 | |
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Still, we solved the ambidextrous use issue by having the round ejected straight up and deflected by a reversible deflector assembly. A removable plug covered the ejection port on the unused side. The switch between right-side to left-side could be done by simply field stripping the rifle, removing the deflector, popping out the ejection port plug, reinserting the plug on the other side of the housing and reinstalling the deflector in an orientation reversed from how it was when removed. The only difficulty was getting the deflector molded in such a way that it consistently ejected the case and didn't just cause it to bounce back down into the action. The other problems you identify can likewise be resolved by some clever engineers and procurement officials who aren't afraid of something that doesn't look the way they are used to it looking. |
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September 13, 2017, 02:40 PM | #41 |
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I don't think the AR15 style rifle will be going anywhere even if the Army chooses to replace M4/M16 or whatever version of the M16 is being used now.
Nearly all weapons that are actually surplus, or styled after military weapons, are still popular years after their adopting military entity has abandoned them. AR style rifles will still be around... heck, I've seen rifles out of New York or California that are required to have a suitcase for a stock and people still buy them. |
September 13, 2017, 03:14 PM | #42 | |
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There are better rifles, but they all cost multiples of what the government pays for an M16/M4. Added to this, the manufacturing infrastructure in place to support military (and civilian) use of the AR platform and the 5.56 cartridge is, near as makes no difference, equivalent to our cars having gas stations on every corner. The total cost of replacing the rifle would be massive in much the same way that replacing gasoline and diesel-powered cars and associated pumps with electronic vehicles and charging stations would be massive. Even if you wanted to do it, consider the cascade effect of everything which would have to be scrapped and then rebuilt differently. This is one of the reasons the 1911 remained in use for so long. Simply put, we had a lot of them as well as the capability to service them. The trials for a then-new service pistol didn't make any financial sense until it was determined that replacing the existing stock of serviceable 1911's and associated spare parts was the more expensive option. I think the cartridge is pretty safe, too. Sure, there are better calibers, depending on the intended use, but the actual projectiles keep improving to compensate for shortcomings and, again, we've got depots filled to the roof with 5.56. They won't just throw that stuff away as they would with, say, an aged fighter or bomber, or something equally dependent upon being on the cutting edge of technology with the only alternative being obsolescence. It's a small arm and it does its job. |
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September 14, 2017, 07:45 AM | #43 |
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A bit over 150 years ago the Army adopted the Trapdoor Springfield in 50-70. They're still around. I was just playing with mine yesterday.
There are a lot more ARs out there then Trapdoors so I'm thinking the AR would be around at least as long, so you can probably assume the ARs will be around at least another 150 years. I dont know how long you plan on hanging around this big old rock, but I'm guessing the ARs will out last any of us setting here on The Firing Line.
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September 14, 2017, 07:56 AM | #44 |
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IMO, 10-20 years.
The military accepts the AR15 in 5.56 as capable and lightweight. Current modifications are mostly ergos and optics. Right now, most energy seems directed at making the soldier better with the rifle and away from making the rifle better. In a sense, I feel like they are waiting on ray guns or programmable projectile weapons or less than lethal advancements. Those will all be supplements like the BAR was to the M1. |
September 14, 2017, 01:53 PM | #45 |
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I'm e.g. referring to technologies that would render contemporary cased ammunition and thus the AR platform obsolete. I wouldn't care if the military switched to say .300 BLK since its still the same technology as such.
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September 14, 2017, 02:12 PM | #46 |
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I know it might be unpopular to say this but I frankly think they'll be banned long before they lose any real world effectiveness. Bullet and cartridge technology are so good right now across many rounds. The gun, in my mind, is a fairly mature technology that is more making small refinments in materials and some usability aspects than in any sort of revolutionary or transformative fashion. Mind you, body armor is an interesting technology but it is more a matter of unsavory types you might face using it to make this a consideration. Ultimately in the munitions vs. armor race, the former is almost always ahead, else tanks would be the supreme battle weapon.
What is in my mind certain isn't if but when there will be widescale prohibition. That and/or in conjunction with the death by a thousand cuts of no online ammo sales, taxing and rezoning every local gun shop out of business, licensing and permitting. At some point owning a gun becomes a hypothetical and no longer real world prospect. Even with R's in all 3 branches of government, we still see states pushing for more controls such as oregon did. Sorry, I love mine but it's only a matter of time before they are no longer legal. I've been and lived in other countries and that's how it always starts....get the fudds and others to agree to "common sense" laws and it cascades from there. From a battlefield and military perspective, there is a massive revolution coming in unarmed/drone-based warfare which we've been slow to embrace in some ways but it is inevitable. It will happen most vividly with aircraft but robots will be implemented in other roles too. Even putin understands that AI and its applications will rule the roost having made note of this in a big speech lately. So in that sense the common soldier with a firearm seems like something that will be of diminishing importance. Weaponizing drones isn't some apocylptic scenario as ISIS has already done that in the ME. How long before we see it stateside? Last edited by ARqueen15; September 14, 2017 at 02:18 PM. |
September 15, 2017, 10:40 AM | #47 | |
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. Last edited by Fishbed77; September 15, 2017 at 10:48 AM. |
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September 16, 2017, 09:08 PM | #48 |
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I have forty of them, they will be around until I croak.
Kraigwy, My trapdoor carbine (1885) hangs over the fireplace when I am not shooting it so I can attest to it's longevity. |
September 16, 2017, 09:57 PM | #49 | |
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September 18, 2017, 08:55 AM | #50 | |
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