The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: General Handgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old May 15, 2021, 12:22 PM   #1
CDW4ME
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 18, 2009
Posts: 1,272
Article 6 handgun cartridges that will soon be obsolete.

https://www.fieldandstream.com/guns/...un-cartridges/

This one will cause some butthurt. LOL.
32 acp - Bond moved on and the rest of the world should follow his lead.

__________________
Strive to carry the handgun you would want anywhere, everywhere; forget that good area bullcrap.
"Wouldn't want to / Nobody volunteer to" get shot by _____ is not indicative of quickly incapacitating.
CDW4ME is offline  
Old May 15, 2021, 01:46 PM   #2
MarkCO
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 1998
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 3,309
Don't feed trolls or repost their clickbait. Clicks tell the editor people are reading it, and then they sell the ads.
__________________
Good Shooting, MarkCO
www.CarbonArms.us
MarkCO is offline  
Old May 15, 2021, 02:27 PM   #3
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 23,738
Agree, it's designed to generate clicks and controversy.

For anyone who cares, the 6 cartridges are:

25ACP
32ACP
41Mag
40S&W
32 H&R Mag
45 GAP

Of that list, the only one that even really has a chance of eventually becoming obsolete is the 45GAP, but as long as Glock supports it, it's probably not going to fade away. Remember that Glock nearly single-handedly kept the 10mm alive for years with their 10mm guns, they can do the same with the GAP if they choose. If Glock drops support (which, I suppose, is a possibility at some point down the road) then the GAP would likely die out slowly, but not quickly.

25 & 32 ACP are never going anywhere--there are just too many guns out there for them--and new guns still being made. That goes 100x for the 40S&W.

The 41 has never been super popular, but it's maintained a following and I see no reason why that would change anytime soon. There are still major manufacturers making the guns.

The 32 H&R, if anything, should become more popular with the advent of the .327Mag guns which can take the cartridge. That's increased the number of guns that can fire the 32 H&R mags tremendously.


I didn't read the whole article, but one sentence did catch my eye.

"Introduced in 1964, the .41 Magnum was intended to be the ideal hunting handgun cartridge."

That's incorrect. The .41Mag was specifically developed to be the ideal police cartridge. More powerful than the .357Mag, less recoil than the .44Mag.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/art...-mag-cartridge

"Eight years later, Elmer Keith teamed up with Bill Jordan and others to introduce a brand new, best-of-both-worlds .41-cal. police revolver cartridge dubbed the .41 Rem. Mag."
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old May 15, 2021, 04:07 PM   #4
MarkCO
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 1998
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 3,309
^Well said JohnKSa
__________________
Good Shooting, MarkCO
www.CarbonArms.us
MarkCO is offline  
Old May 15, 2021, 10:19 PM   #5
Prof Young
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 21, 2007
Location: Illinois - down state
Posts: 2,160
Magazine writers . . .

Magazine writers have to write about something and you can only review the latest guns and ammo so much. Someone got creative and took a shot. (pun intended) Made me think a bit. At one point when I was still a newbee (As I wasn't still . . . ) I investigated 41 mag for handgun hunting. Found out quickly that I may do better with 44 mag.

Life is good.
Prof Young
Prof Young is offline  
Old May 16, 2021, 08:16 AM   #6
Forte S+W
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 12, 2019
Posts: 663
So, what Field & Stream is trying to say is that these old cartridges are much like they are, once well regarded but no longer relevant in modern times.

Honestly, they post an article on obsolete cartridges, yet actual obsolete cartridges like Volcanic Rocket Balls or Gyrojet Cartridges are excluded, because then the article wouldn't be total click-bait which generates ad revenue by making deliberately outrageous statements to get people talking about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Field&Stream
My grandfather told me that back during prohibition when he was running shine, he watched a man empty a magazine of .25 Auto ammo into another man’s torso. That other man then went to his truck, got a shovel, and used that shovel to beat his attacker to death.
A prime example of a Grandfather Story... I've heard several variations of this story before. The names, occupations of the characters, setting, and cartridges change, but it always involves someone emptying a firearm into something with no effect, then inexplicably sticking around after the shooting while their attacker goes away to retrieve a more effective weapon then comes back and proceeds to murder the shooter.

One would presume that in such a case the shooter would have either fled the scene or continued attacking in a typical display of the instinctive fight or flight response to danger, but no, the folks in these stories attack someone, then patiently await retaliation after their attack fails to yield the desired result.
By the same token, one would presume that being shot would more likely result in someone fleeing the scene or immediately retaliating so as to prevent their attacker from reloading their weapon or continuing their attack until the desired results have been achieved, but nope, they always walk (never run) somewhere to retrieve a weapon, then come back and proceed to murder someone with impunity who was previously angry enough to attempt to murder them.

Great story, Grandpa Abe. Kudos for never allowing trifles like plausibility to get in the way of telling a good story. In fact, the more questions it raises the better because it leaves the listener wanting a sequel, like an explanation or what happened next, exactly. But being the magician of storytelling that you are, you never follow up on the tale, not even when the characters are allegedly friends of yours and therefore you ought to know what happened to them next.
Also, good thinking, openly admitting to being a moonshiner right at the beginning like that, because while it certainly hurts the credibility of your testimony at face value, it also provides you with a convenient out in the event in which somebody cares enough to call your story into question by pointing out it's many flaws/inconsistencies as I have.
__________________
.40 S&W is the perfect example of a Zombie Cartridge. Allegedly it has been dead since 2016, yet it continues to walk among us.

Last edited by Forte S+W; May 16, 2021 at 02:09 PM.
Forte S+W is offline  
Old May 16, 2021, 09:34 AM   #7
reddog81
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 16, 2014
Location: Iowa
Posts: 1,402
Field and Stream will be obsolete before most of these cartridges.
reddog81 is offline  
Old May 16, 2021, 10:27 AM   #8
Carl the Floor Walker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 3, 2017
Posts: 1,323
[QUOTE=JohnKSa;6868178]Agree, it's designed to generate clicks and controversy.




The thread itself is designed to just do the same old argument or caliber war that has become so exhausting on Gun forums. Seems the same kind of thread comes up weekly now. Complete with the meme's. Some of the cartridges are not becoming obsolete but improving more all the time.
Carl the Floor Walker is offline  
Old May 16, 2021, 11:59 AM   #9
CDW4ME
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 18, 2009
Posts: 1,272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl the Floor Walker View Post
The thread itself is designed to just do the same old argument or caliber war that has become so exhausting on Gun forums. Seems the same kind of thread comes up weekly now. Complete with the meme's. Some of the cartridges are not becoming obsolete but improving more all the time.
I posted a article, please link where I posted it before or have ever started a thread about handgun cartridges that are going to be obsolete.

Caliber war? How is the article a "caliber war"?
Can you define caliber war? Differentiate between a caliber discussion and the mythical "caliber war".
I think "caliber war" is a undefined term invoked when one dislikes the discussion; analogous to the left calling whatever racist.

What I've noticed, is the few people that bemoan use of a meme are the most vocal (critical/abrasive) whenever their opinion is challenged. They don't like memes because it makes a point that they can't dissect and critique as easily.
__________________
Strive to carry the handgun you would want anywhere, everywhere; forget that good area bullcrap.
"Wouldn't want to / Nobody volunteer to" get shot by _____ is not indicative of quickly incapacitating.
CDW4ME is offline  
Old May 16, 2021, 12:37 PM   #10
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 3,082
Yawn. 40 S&W being the third most popular cartridge sold has a LONG way to go for obsolescence.
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement
U. S. Army Veteran
Armorer
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old May 16, 2021, 01:43 PM   #11
Obambulate
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2011
Posts: 566
Why does Fudd & Stream care about handguns?
Obambulate is offline  
Old May 16, 2021, 01:52 PM   #12
Forte S+W
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 12, 2019
Posts: 663
Until folks begin engaging in heated arguments over which caliber is "best" as if there is such a thing, this thread is merely a discussion, and seems to be more focused on the article itself than the obviously flawed concept featured within.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanuk
Yawn. 40 S&W being the third most popular cartridge sold has a LONG way to go for obsolescence.
The sad truth about .40 S&W is that certain people have an irrational hatred towards the cartridge and wish so badly that it will die that they incessantly proclaim it's forthcoming demise in hopes that if they just keep saying it then it will come true.
Hence the basis for my signature, they've been saying it's dead since the FBI dropped it, yet it's still very much alive. Sure, no new guns are being made chambered in .40 S&W, (yet) but existing designs remain in production, and just last year Glock came out with Gen 5 models of their .40 S&W pistols which were redesigned specifically for .40 S&W. Nobody would sink the R&D costs into making a redesigned pistol for a dead cartridge.

In reality, .40 S&W is still a popular self-defense/duty cartridge across the United States, but diehard 9mm enthusiasts choose to ignore this fact because they seemingly hold a grudge against .40 S&W for temporarily dethroning their cartridge of choice in Law Enforcement, not to mention for making the 9mm look bad by comparison, despite being mocked as "Short & Weak" for its competitively poor performance compared to 10mm Auto, which was just salt in the wound who carry 9mm and fancy it as a powerful cartridge. You'd think that they'd be satisfied with the fact that 9mm Luger is by far the most popular pistol cartridge on Earth, but no, it also must be the most effective, even if it's already as effective as it needs to be, nothing is ever allowed to be even situationally better, not even in the most niche of roles like straight line penetration through windshield glass.
__________________
.40 S&W is the perfect example of a Zombie Cartridge. Allegedly it has been dead since 2016, yet it continues to walk among us.
Forte S+W is offline  
Old May 16, 2021, 02:08 PM   #13
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 23,738
Quote:
A prime example of a Grandfather Story...
Good point and you dissected the story nicely.
Quote:
Sure, no new guns are being made chambered in .40 S&W...
I'm pretty sure that S&W is still selling new guns in .40S&W.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old May 16, 2021, 02:23 PM   #14
Forte S+W
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 12, 2019
Posts: 663
I mean new as in newly designed. Case in point, Smith & Wesson recently came out with the M&P9 Shield PLUS, yet didn't offer an M&P40 Shield PLUS. Granted that they may do so down the line, but typically Smith & Wesson designs their semiautomatic pistols around .40 S&W, so when the pistol is released, it's typically available in .40 S&W as well as 9mm Luger to begin with, so the fact that there is no M&P40 Shield PLUS could indicate that their won't be.

There are a lot of brand new 9mm Pistols on the market like the Shield PLUS and Ruger Max-9, but no .40s.
Although that may simply be due to the fact that a Shield PLUS in .40 might hold like 8 or 9 rounds in a flush magazine, which wouldn't be a substantial upgrade over the standard 6 round flush magazine in the M&P40 Shield 1.0/2.0 models.
__________________
.40 S&W is the perfect example of a Zombie Cartridge. Allegedly it has been dead since 2016, yet it continues to walk among us.
Forte S+W is offline  
Old May 16, 2021, 05:44 PM   #15
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 12,795
Quote:
Of that list, the only one that even really has a chance of eventually becoming obsolete is the 45GAP
And even that will still have some support as long as people have guns chambered for it.

The author fails to define what he means when he says "obsolete" or "on the way out." If I were pushed, I'd define it as when it goes to wildcat territory. I can't think of ANY handgun cartridge in my lifetime that's done that.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.
--Randall Munroe
Tom Servo is offline  
Old May 16, 2021, 06:17 PM   #16
74A95
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 26, 2016
Posts: 1,174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
The author fails to define what he means when he says "obsolete" or "on the way out." If I were pushed, I'd define it as when it goes to wildcat territory. I can't think of ANY handgun cartridge in my lifetime that's done that.
I generally think of a 'wildcat' as a round that was newly created and there were no commercial gun/ammo makers. Some then became mainstream and commercially produced.

For cartridges/guns that were commercially produced and then were dropped = those became obsolete.

New wildcat handgun cartridges that have not made much commercial success might include: 960 Rowland, 357 Ring of Fire (first promoted in this forum).

Other rounds that have had small success, but seem to be lost or barely alive, especially in the world of competition: 356 TSW, 9X25 Dillon. There is some effort to revive the 356 TSW. https://gunsmagazine.com/discover/the-356-tsw/
74A95 is offline  
Old May 16, 2021, 07:55 PM   #17
Shadow9mm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2012
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 1,694
That article is a load of garbage. The 45 GAP is PRIMARILY for the european market, where most civilians cannot own military cartridges like 45 ACP, but wanted one. This was the civilian version of the 45ACP. And it fits in a standard frame. Not a great option in the US due to 45acp, but did well over seas as I understand it.
__________________
I don't believe in "range fodder" that is why I reload.
Shadow9mm is online now  
Old May 16, 2021, 08:59 PM   #18
74A95
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 26, 2016
Posts: 1,174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow9mm View Post
That article is a load of garbage. The 45 GAP is PRIMARILY for the european market, where most civilians cannot own military cartridges like 45 ACP, but wanted one.
I can find zero information about the 45 GAP being developed for the European market. Where did you find this information. Thanks.
74A95 is offline  
Old May 16, 2021, 09:14 PM   #19
Bill DeShivs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2006
Posts: 10,642
The 45 GAP was developed to fit into the standard size Glock grip frame.
__________________
Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler
www.billdeshivs.com
Bill DeShivs is offline  
Old May 16, 2021, 10:01 PM   #20
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 23,738
Right. It was supposed to be to the .45ACP what the .40S&W was to the 10mm. Same sized bullet in a 9mm sized pistol.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old May 16, 2021, 11:02 PM   #21
artoo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 17, 2012
Posts: 145
I am not worried that those 6 cartridges are going away any time soon nor am I going to fall for the click bait.

I use several of the 6 named cartridges and will continue to.
__________________
NRA Life Member
artoo is offline  
Old May 17, 2021, 01:15 AM   #22
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 23,650
Quote:
If I were pushed, I'd define it as when it goes to wildcat territory. I can't think of ANY handgun cartridge in my lifetime that's done that.
I think there ought to be a distinction between obsolete and out of production, because they can be different things.

My dictionary lists obsolete as both 1) no longer in use, and 2)outmoded in design, style, or construction. Both of those can be due to nothing more than popularity and economics and can have nothing to do with the effectiveness of the round itself.

I can think of several rounds new in the last 60 years that are no longer made, (most of them rifle rounds and several of them Remingtons) but some pistol rounds too.

Are rounds "obsolete" if small quantities of ammo, or just brass are made once in a while??

And what about all those "obsolete" rounds dating from the 1870s-80s era that are not only having ammo currently produced but also new firearms for that ammo? .45 Colt comes to mind for just one of those. "New" guns are new made guns, they don't have to be new made designs to be new guns.

The article is just a way to stir up discussion by involving some controversy, and their opinions aren't worth any more to me than mine is to them.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old May 17, 2021, 06:26 AM   #23
CDW4ME
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 18, 2009
Posts: 1,272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanuk View Post
Yawn. 40 S&W being the third most popular cartridge sold has a LONG way to go for obsolescence.
Yup.

My primary (most frequent) carry is a 40 S&W Glock 23, I didn't get butthurt cause its on the list.

25 auto, better off with a shovel. Funny stuff right there.
I'd stick in a meme but it might cause somebody an aneurism, LOL.
Off to find appropriate meme...
__________________
Strive to carry the handgun you would want anywhere, everywhere; forget that good area bullcrap.
"Wouldn't want to / Nobody volunteer to" get shot by _____ is not indicative of quickly incapacitating.
CDW4ME is offline  
Old May 17, 2021, 01:32 PM   #24
CDW4ME
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 18, 2009
Posts: 1,272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs View Post
The 45 GAP was developed to fit into the standard size Glock grip frame.
Quote:
JohnKSa Right. It was supposed to be to the .45ACP what the .40S&W was to the 10mm. Same sized bullet in a 9mm sized pistol.
Both correct.

Being a sucker for niche calibers, I've got a 45 GAP Glock 38 its "soft shooting" and offers 8 + 1 of 45 caliber in a Glock 19/23 frame.
Since I'm not under a 10 round limit, I prefer 13 + 1 40 S&W Glock 23 or 15 + 1 Glock 19
However, if there is ever a nationwide AWB with no grandfathering and stupid 10 round mag limit the Glock 38 would be preferred over the 19/23 with 10 round mag.
But, I've got a 30SF 45 acp and would likely take 11 rounds 45 acp over 9 rounds 45 GAP.
Or would I go with my Glock 29SF and 10 (11) rounds of 10mm ... sucker for niche calibers.

I knocked on 32 acp in the OP but it will be offered in factory loadings after the 45 GAP is regulated to handloaders.
__________________
Strive to carry the handgun you would want anywhere, everywhere; forget that good area bullcrap.
"Wouldn't want to / Nobody volunteer to" get shot by _____ is not indicative of quickly incapacitating.
CDW4ME is offline  
Old May 17, 2021, 04:30 PM   #25
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 12,795
Quote:
Same sized bullet in a 9mm sized pistol.
IIRC, that's what killed its adoption at the last minute. The initial promise was that the .45 GAP pistols would fit the same holsters as .40 S&W and 9mm pistols. That would have been a big incentive for law enforcement, since replacing duty gear isn't cheap.

Problem was, between marketing and final testing, there were cycling problems. Glock realized they had to add more mass to the slide, and that made it wider. THAT meant the new pistols wouldn't fit the old holsters, and a big advantage was lost.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.
--Randall Munroe
Tom Servo is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:52 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2020 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.12128 seconds with 9 queries