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April 9, 2021, 03:19 PM | #51 | |
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Of course, the Tenn Constitution (like the constitution of every state) prohibits general warrants like that statute. Oh, and I'm not asking anyone to break the law --- far from it. I want to identify law-abiding folks who don't like the government traipsing across their property without their consent or a warrant. |
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April 22, 2021, 07:52 PM | #52 |
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My friend that I met in the USArmy who went to Alaska and is still there after his Army time and 30 or so years as AK CO.
He told me the story (real) that on a day, before sunup, he hooked up the state patrol boat to the state vehicle and hit the road. Soon he was pulled over by the state police. The officer walked up to his car, saw the door symbol and said "damn it, fish cop." It seems that the state trailer lights were not functioning as our would be required.. |
April 23, 2021, 07:36 AM | #53 |
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Around here, the common term is "possum cop."
Arkansas Game and Fish is a constitutional agency in AR, so they've got very broad powers.
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March 26, 2022, 09:20 PM | #54 |
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A follow-up to this thread. The game wardens' actions were recently ruled unconstitutional and illegal. (Unconstitutional under the Tennessee Constitution, not necessarily the US Constitution) The Open Fields Doctrine does not apply. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBLA...nel=SteveLehto
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March 27, 2022, 08:19 AM | #55 |
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And a follow up about Florida - this is in regards to fishing:
The 2021 Florida Statutes Title XXVIII NATURAL RESOURCES; CONSERVATION, RECLAMATION, AND USE Chapter 379 FISH AND WILDLIFE CONSERVATION View Entire Chapter 379.3313 Powers of commission law enforcement officers.— (1) Law enforcement officers of the commission are constituted law enforcement officers of this state with full power to investigate and arrest for any violation of the laws of this state and the rules of the commission, the department, the Board of Trustees of the Internal Improvement Trust Fund, and the Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services under their jurisdiction. The general laws applicable to arrests by peace officers of this state shall also be applicable to law enforcement officers of the commission. Such law enforcement officers may enter upon any land or waters of the state for performance of their lawful duties and may take with them any necessary equipment, and such entry will not constitute a trespass. It is lawful for any boat, motor vehicle, or aircraft owned or chartered by the commission or its agents or employees to land on and depart from any of the beaches or waters of the state. Such law enforcement officers have the authority, without warrant, to board, inspect, and search any boat, fishing appliance, storage or processing plant, fishhouse, spongehouse, oysterhouse, or other warehouse, building, or vehicle engaged in transporting or storing any fish or fishery products. Such authority to search and inspect without a search warrant is limited to those cases in which such law enforcement officers have reason to believe that fish or any saltwater products are taken or kept for sale, barter, transportation, or other purposes in violation of laws or rules adopted under this law. Such law enforcement officers may at any time seize or take possession of any saltwater products or contraband which have been unlawfully caught, taken, or processed or which are unlawfully possessed or transported in violation of any of the laws of this state or any rule of the commission. Such law enforcement officers may arrest any person in the act of violating this law, the rules of the commission, or any of the laws of this state. It is unlawful for a person to resist such arrest or in any manner interfere, either by abetting or assisting such resistance or otherwise interfering, with any such law enforcement officer while engaged in the performance of the duties imposed upon him or her by law or rule of the commission. (2) The Legislature finds that the checking and inspection of saltwater products aboard vessels is critical to good fishery management and conservation and that, because almost all saltwater products are either iced or cooled in closed areas or containers, the enforcement of seasons, size limits, and bag limits can only be effective when inspection of saltwater products so stored is immediate and routine. Therefore, in addition to the authority granted in subsection (1), a law enforcement officer of the commission who has probable cause to believe that the vessel has been used for fishing prior to the inspection shall have full authority to open and inspect all containers or areas where saltwater products are normally kept aboard vessels while such vessels are on the water, such as refrigerated or iced locations, coolers, fish boxes, and bait wells, but specifically excluding such containers that are located in sleeping or living areas of the vessel.
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March 27, 2022, 10:31 AM | #56 |
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Up here the wardens are the best trained/equipped law enforcement personnel available. Frequently they assist/lead local enforcement on emergency's and arresting the most violent offenders.
Like every other law enforcement profession, there are rare abuses of their authority/responsibility. |
March 27, 2022, 12:13 PM | #57 | |
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1. If I were on a jury, I would abide by the general rule that laws are to be construed according to the common meaning of the words unless the words are specifically defined otherwise in the law itself. To me, "any land or waters of the state" means land or waters owned by the State of Florida, it does not mean any land or waters "in" the state. 2. Irrespective of the legality of their entry onto private land, the law clearly says that such entry without a warrant is not trespass (if you don't agree with me on point #1), but it also says "for performance of their lawful duties." They are allowed to bring "necessary" equipment with them, but the statute doesn't say they are allowed to leave equipment -- such as trail cameras -- to conduct around-the-clock warrantless surveillance. Are you aware of any Florida case law that more clearly defines any limitations on this seemingly infinite authority?
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March 27, 2022, 01:33 PM | #58 |
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"any land or waters of the state" in state statutes commonly refers to any land or water within the state boundaries. Game laws commonly apply to both public and private property. However the ability to enter any land or waters does not grant them unbridled authority to do anything but what the statute/codes specifically assigns them.
Last edited by zeke; March 28, 2022 at 11:33 AM. |
March 27, 2022, 03:12 PM | #59 | |
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March 27, 2022, 06:36 PM | #60 | |
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In our state, some (including myself) went by a principal of "plain english", which am guessing is basically the same as the phrase "common meaning of words". IMO, this is an excellent principle, but ain't gonna work against an already well established meaning and practice. |
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March 27, 2022, 08:18 PM | #61 |
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The victory in Tennesse is by the Institute for Justice, my organization
https://ij.org/press-release/in-vict...onstitutional/ Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk |
March 27, 2022, 08:26 PM | #62 | |
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I know there's a presumption that juries decide on the facts and judges decide on the law, but there was a very early case in the history of the United States Supreme Court (Georgia v. Brailsford) in which the first Chief Justice, John Jay, made the statement, "It may not be amiss here, Gentlemen, to remind you of the good old rule, that on questions of fact, it is the province of the Jury; on questions of law, it is the province of the Court to decide. But it must be observed that by the same law, which recognizes this reasonable distribution of jurisdiction, you have nevertheless a right to take upon yourselves to judge of both, and to determine the law as well as the fact in controversy. On this, and on every other occasion, however, we have no doubt, you will pay that respect, which is due to the opinion of the Court: For, as on the one hand, it is presumed, that Juries are the best judges of facts; it is, on the other hand, presumeable that the Court are the best judges of law. But still both objects are lawfully, within your power of decision." Consequently, if I were on a jury I would certainly listen to what the judge had to say but, if I disagreed with the judge as to what the law in question actually says in plain English, then I would honorably be constrained to vote the way I saw the law to be saying. My house and lot are the property of me, not the property of the state in which I am located.
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March 28, 2022, 10:35 AM | #63 |
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Maybe I'm a little dense (probably), but I'm not sure how the current track of this conversation has to do with firearms laws or rights. I kept reading through this expecting it SOMEWHERE... nope. It doesn't even have anything to do with hunting really.
While it's kind of interesting, if I want to read up on land rights and trespass I'd be on a different forum. And I'm not saying you shouldn't have the conversation as you guys seem to be enjoying arguing about it, but is this the right forum for this discussion? I come here for issues pertaining to gun rights. Not clutter on trespassing, government or otherwise. Last edited by NJgunowner; March 28, 2022 at 10:41 AM. |
March 28, 2022, 11:07 AM | #64 | |
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1. The 4th Amendment clearly does not protect against search and seizure on raw, unimproved land. This can be discerned from the Amendment's clear wording, from the drafters' intent and from the Supreme Court Case law interpreting it. 2. Anti-poaching laws and hunting regulations that limit the method and quantity of harvesting animals have a long tradition in this country, going back to the time of the Revolutionary War. These laws are long established in state laws and consequently federal laws/regulations as well. The laws are based upon maintaining sustainable populations of animals and game, so they are necessary and proper. 3. Wild Game does not belong to anyone and freely roam among hundreds of miles of private and public land. So, from that perspective, it is more of a national and/or state resource, similar to water rights. Just because a stream runs through your property, doesn't mean that you have the absolute right to dump sewage into that stream, or damn it up and use the water to irrigate thousands of acres. If you are engaged in these types of activities on unimproved land, there is no warrant needed to investigate and pursue criminal charges. 4. As for entering and searching a residence for animals unlawfully harvested - I believe that 4th Amendment rights remain intact. However, taking a game warden along, who would be able to spot and identify evidence of unlawful hunting or meat processing outside of a residence may be helpful to gain access without a warrant. I see nothing wrong with that. |
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March 28, 2022, 11:29 AM | #65 | |
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I think real answer isn't "no wardens on the property without permission", it's here's a clear set of rules and guidelines they need to follow to protect peoples privacy so as not violate their rights. And who knows, maybe one of these wardens had a thing for someone living in that house. Peeping Tom's and stalkers can be anyone lol. Bah, now you guys have me participating in this. Last edited by NJgunowner; March 28, 2022 at 11:38 AM. |
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March 28, 2022, 11:56 AM | #66 | |
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In Wisconsin numerous State or County positions had statute authority to enter private property without permission. Wi changed the trespass law to you didn't need signage. We were told to make numerous efforts to gain permission to access private property, or the State would not represent us in court if we got arrested for trespass. If we could not gain permission, we were instructed to get warden. |
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March 28, 2022, 01:05 PM | #67 | ||
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March 28, 2022, 01:34 PM | #68 | |
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April 18, 2022, 09:49 AM | #69 |
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Congrats on the win, 4thAmendmentLawyer.
From a purely 4th Amendment, while I understand Skans point that the 4th doesn't necessarily cover raw, unimproved land, I think there is a case to be made that by aiming the camera at the residence, the game commission is making the homeowner less secure in his home and effects, or atleast dancing around that line. There is also an imminent domain issue. By installing equipment, the state has, in effect, taken control of the property from the owner for state use. Not only that, but did it without providing notice or payment. |
June 2, 2022, 12:42 PM | #70 | ||||
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