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Old April 19, 2014, 11:16 AM   #1
Unlicensed Dremel
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Larry Willis Belted-Magnum Collet Re-sizing die

Just learned about this product:

http://www.larrywillis.com/

It's a resizing die that you use AFTER normal resizing, and uses a collet to re-size the dreaded belt bulge area.

It works on pretty much any/all of your belted cases:

.257 Weatherby Magnum, 6.5 Remington Magnum, .264 Winchester Magnum, .270 Weatherby Magnum, 7 x 61 Sharpe & Hart, 7mm Remington Magnum, 7mm Weatherby Magnum, 7mm STW, .300 H&H Magnum, .300 Winchester Magnum, .300 Weatherby Magnum, .308 Norma Magnum, 8mm Remington Magnum, .338 Winchester Magnum, .340 Weatherby Magnum, .350 Remington Magnum, .358 Norma Magnum, .375 H&H Magnum, .416 Remington Magnum, .458 Winchester Magnum, .458 Lott Magnum

Very interesting - since I'm eyeing a .350 rem mag custom on GB.... (and have already acquired a .375 HH)

Anyone use? Do they work as advertised? He claims up to 20 reloads rather than 2 or 3...
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Old April 19, 2014, 11:45 AM   #2
F. Guffey
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Quote:
It's a resizing die that you use AFTER normal resizing,
Why would you do that? Why would anyone do that? A reloader finds the case will not chamber first because body of the case did not get shoved into the full length sizer die, the few reloaders with feeler gages could measure 'by how much' and know the case did not get sized before lowering the ram.


Before L. Willis we were using collets in a lathe, I ASK: “who measures?” I was asked to form cases for wildcats being built, it was explained to me the difficulty, I was asked to bring ‘the other #4 shell holder’, instead I brought a small gasket cutting hammer.

They furnished 250+ Magnum cases for forming, some would not fit their #4 shell holder so? We used my #4 shell holder, we drove the cases into the shell holder with the small ball peen hammer. The same cases that would not fit the shell holder required collet siizing ahead of the belt. the extractor diameter at the bottom of the groove on the cases was .008”+ larger in diameter than the cases that fit the shell holder. The case diameter ahead of the belt was .011”+ larger than the cases that would fit the die.

Of the 250+ cases to be formed they decided not to use 40 of them. The case heads has been upset by hammering with heavy loads, between the 3 of us there are 7 running lathes, choking the case down in front of the belt with a collet was doable, modifying the shell holder to fit the crushed head cases. The decision to use the die and shell holder rejected cases was unanimous.

Who knows? The case head compresses, the diameter increases each time the case is fired, by how much?

Add: Spare me, do not mention the length of the chamber or head space unless you are a slide and glide shooter, that would be someone that lubes the case to prevent the case from locking onto the chamber.

F. Guffey

Last edited by F. Guffey; April 19, 2014 at 11:56 AM. Reason: change die to case
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Old April 19, 2014, 01:16 PM   #3
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Man, ya lost me, brutha - I'm sorry. I'm not sophisticated in reloading enough to follow your post.

Please tell me if I accurately summarize your experience with these - can you please tell me which all of these that you are saying?:

1. They won't do anything.

2. They don't re-size the belt bulge

3. You don't need them; you need _______ instead.

4. There's no such thing as a belt bulge

5. They won't actually extend case life.

6. A regular sizing die will do the exact same thing, if adjusted right, and/or matching your chamber very closely

??

Thanks. Just trying to follow.
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Old April 19, 2014, 02:00 PM   #4
F. Guffey
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I do not sell for and or advertise for L. Willis, do you?

The next time I would suggest you have him edit your post.

F. Guffey
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Old April 19, 2014, 02:23 PM   #5
Jimro
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Unlicensed Dremel,

By the time the body ahead of the belt has expanded to the point where a round won't chamber, I'm guessing it is time to get new brass.

If you don't have a problem with body bulge now, then I don't see a collet sizer fixing a problem that you don't have.

Jimro
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Old April 19, 2014, 05:34 PM   #6
Bart B.
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No die I know of sizes the belt down in diameter. That collet die sizes down the case body right in front of the belt.

That collet die's a good thing for reloading belted cases. Before Willis made his collet version, people took a standard full length sizing die, cut its bottom off about 1/10th inch above the die's belt clearance area and the same amount below the body-shoulder juncture. Then squaring up its bottom and making a slight radius on its inside edge. After full length sizing belted bottleneck cases setting their shoulder back about .001", that "body die was set in the press so it sized the case body all the way back to the belt which standard dies do not. That ridge is more pronounced with higher pressures and thinner brass. It usually looks like a fine line around the case a few thousandths in front of the belt.

That body die sized down the ridge often left on belted cases a few thousandths in front of the belt when fired in chambers with excessive belt headspace to have the belt's front edge a few to several thousandths back from the chamber's headspace shoulder. Otherwise, that tiny ridge often interferred with the case being driven forward by the firing pin and hit the edge of the chamber headspace ridge such that extra vibrations caused the barrel to whip differently from shot to shot. Sizing that ridge down helped accuracy enough that those "body" dies were popular. Most folks winning long range matches with belted magnums used their own home-made "body" dies. Its use after (sometimes before) full length sizing was about the only way to get accuracy as good as what new belted cases produced.

I've used one I made back in the early 1970's from a .338 Win Mag sizing die and it's worked resizing cases for all my 30-338 magnum barrels worn out in competition. If one makes their own, be sure the body taper of the die you're going to modify has the same body taper per inch as your belted cases have. Otherwise, you may size part of the case too small between the belt and shoulder.

Best thing to do for greatest case life with belted bottleneck cases is to full length size them such that their shoulder's set back no more than .001" so the case headspaces on its shoulder instead of its belt. The collet die helps somewhat, but not as much as minimal full length sizing. Best advantage of the Willis collet die is it pushes the case body into the chamber radially instead of by wave action normal full length sizing dies do. With minimal fired case shoulder setback and use of the collet die, 20+ reloads per belted case is the norm with normal, max peak pressures. Hotter loads shorten case life and typically hurt accuracy.

Last edited by Bart B.; April 21, 2014 at 02:06 PM.
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Old April 19, 2014, 08:22 PM   #7
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I have one of Larry's dies.

1)Wimpy
Published loads for 7mmRemMag are often not as powerful as worked up handloads in 7x57mmMauser long brass life with a safety margin.

Those wimpy loads don't need Larry's die to get brass fired in one chamber to be resized and fit in a tighter belted magnum chamber.

2) Not so wimpy
But some 7mmRM published loads as so hot they bulge right in front of the belt, and need Larry's die to fit in tighter rifles. Ordinary sizer dies are not enough. They do not go close enough to the belt, due to the big radius at the die mouth. This is the niche for Larry's die.

3) Hot
But I work up 7mmRM loads up to 22% more powder than max published, get a loose primer pocket, and back off 4% safety margin, and go hunting. Those cases cannot fit into a tighter chamber, even WITH Larry's die.

4)What are my options with my growing collection of 7mmRM, 300WM, and 338WM rifles?
a) I could segregate the brass to each rifle.
b) I could back off to published load level and use Larry's die.
c) I could stop reloading the brass and just handload the brass once.
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Old April 19, 2014, 09:25 PM   #8
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Until now I thought I might be the only guy using a lathe modified mag sizer die to reduce that body bulge in front of the belt. I don't have a belted case rifle but a few friends I load for do, 7mm Rem and .300 Wins. I found a stray yaed sale 8mm Rem sizer ($3) I could alter at home. It works perfectly but I headspace all bottle neck cartridges off the shoulder.
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Old April 19, 2014, 09:34 PM   #9
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In 2002 I was shortening Lee 45acp carbide dies with diamond bits. I needed to reduce the web.
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"Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist.
Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?
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Old April 21, 2014, 12:38 PM   #10
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Hmmm, odd. I said:

Quote:
Man, ya lost me, brutha - I'm sorry. I'm not sophisticated in reloading enough to follow your post.

Please tell me if I accurately summarize your experience with these - can you please tell me which all of these that you are saying?:

1. They won't do anything.

2. They don't re-size the belt bulge

3. You don't need them; you need _______ instead.

4. There's no such thing as a belt bulge

5. They won't actually extend case life.

6. A regular sizing die will do the exact same thing, if adjusted right, and/or matching your chamber very closely

??

Thanks. Just trying to follow.
Asking you, F. Guffy, and expecting you to answer my, questions as to which of those 6 things, if any, you were saying? I.e. None, 1 only; 1 and 2 only; 1 and 3 only; 2, 3, and 4 only; 4 and 6 only - there's hundreds of different combinations, which you could have chosen in order to help me understand what YOU were trying to say, as I asked in an exceedingly pleasant manner (notwithstanding your convoluted and confusing initial answer).

Not only did you not answer the question at all, in any way shape form or fashion - you didn't choose a single one of the hundreds of combinations of possible answers to my questions to you, to try to understand what you were saying, you said this in response to my questions:

Quote:
I do not sell for and or advertise for L. Willis, do you?

The next time I would suggest you have him edit your post.

F. Guffey
Which is utterly nonsensical. Just me or F. Guffey in the twilight zone here? Do you make a competing product or what? What accounts for the unjustified hostility and irrationality? I don't get it.

The rest of you - thanks for much for the helpful info - sound like it's a good useful product in many instances, from the weight of the information, as I suspected. But as mentioned, headspacing off the shoulder by sizing in that manner, and/or not getting too hot, are other competing or additional options.

Last edited by Unlicensed Dremel; April 21, 2014 at 12:46 PM.
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Old April 22, 2014, 10:40 AM   #11
F. Guffey
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Quote:
I do not sell for and or advertise for L. Willis, do you?
You do not have a rifle with a belted chamber, yet, you perceive a problem.

The title of you questions puts L. Willis at the top of the search page #ONE.

There are work shops that instruct owners and operators how to get there web site first on the search.

Motive and or intent, My wife signed me up for one of those workshops, I informed her I thought the big advertisement in the paper was a scam to separate desperate people from they money. I attended the work shop, no one there will ever forget it. It started with 'free to the first 50 callers', after that there was a bonus gift for attending.
I arrived, signed in and wanted my gift. No gift. I wanted to see the gift, no see the gift. I checked under the tables, other rooms, nothing.

The meeting started, I raised my hand, I asked about the gift, like RED FOX trying to recover Jelly Bellies' records back I wanted to know about the bonus gift. They stopped the meeting then assigned 3 members of their staff to surround me and answer all questions, they avoided the question, so I informed the slick presenter I was not getting answers.

Slowly, very slowly it started to soak in with a very few, there was no free lunch, the morning meeting was all about what participants will learn about the Internet, Google and EBay after they fork over $300.00 for the evening and next day classes.

AND THEN? The promoters handed out vouchers for their prize/bonus gift. Problem, the voucher required shipping and handling to be paid first, the cost was $16.00, the value of the gift was $4.00 +/- a few cents. A few in attendance came over and thanked me, the ones that could less afford being treated in that manner were the ones I thought were victims.

Unlicensed Dremel, I suggested you contact L. Willis, Larry and I have communicated, at one time he must have held my opinion in high regard, and then?

Larry Invited me to view his sight, seems all I had to do was view his sight to recognize his wonderfulness.

F, Guffey
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Old April 22, 2014, 12:18 PM   #12
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Again Guffey shows me nothing but babble and condescending statements that offer nothing to assist someone in the process of reloading.

Larry Willis has helped me and I am quite sure many other shooters and reloaders with his insight. He is always willing and available to HELP fellow shooters in anyway he possibly can whether or not you happen to use or purchase any of his products.

I have never read of any derogatory comments from him about anyone. It seems to me that he is a much bigger person than that.

I do happen to own one of his collet dies that I believe increases the case life of my Weatherby magnum cases. I use it because accordingly to Guffey I obviously have no idea on how to properly size my cases that I now have eight reloads on.
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Old April 24, 2014, 08:43 PM   #13
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"Again Guffey shows me nothing but babble..."

Ditto.
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Old April 25, 2014, 06:23 AM   #14
Bart B.
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In spite of all that babbling, I got 15 reloads on a Winchester .30-.338 Win Mag case minimally full length sizing it then resizing it again with my body die mentioned in post 6 in this thread. Had to trim case length a few thousandths two or three times as the case grew a couple thousandths each shoot and resize/shoot cycle. So did my Federal .308 Win case that went 47 cycles. Both were max safe loads.

Last edited by Bart B.; April 25, 2014 at 07:22 PM.
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