Help with Gun Identification

mdevlin53 · January 7, 2012, 03:33 PM

I have a rifle and i would like to know more about it with the end result of replacing the missing bolt assembly. I think the gun is Germaan, it may be 10mm with a 25 inch rifled barrel. the barrel has several markings on the underside including a crown over a B G and U.it has a number 5086 an HS over 8. also 108,49 10.02 and 788. the gun has double set triggers that are ajustable, the trigger group appeare to be chromed, the trigger guard is engraved. the barrel is hexagonal with etching on the top flat. the furniture for the barrel wedge appears to be silver or pewter. This gun was partof my fathers effects and he never mentioned when or where he got it. any help would be appreciated
mike

Gunplummer · January 7, 2012, 10:47 PM

I see a lot of those stocks around and they are usually on English .22 calibers. Other than that i don't know.

Jim Watson · January 7, 2012, 11:24 PM

It is certainly German with the BUG proofs.
Other than that, all I can say is that it is a simple and early style bolt action sporting rifle.
If you were proud of your product, wouldn't you put your trademark on it?
There are a lot of nameless European guns and I don't understand it.

mdevlin53 · January 8, 2012, 07:45 AM

I wasn't holding out much hope for an ID but it would be nice to know. I'll keep checking back, thanks

mapsjanhere · January 8, 2012, 09:45 AM

The really odd part is the hexagonal single shot receiver with the large cut-out, which points towards a Gewehr 1871 system. But: The BUG marks on the barrel say post-1891. Which makes me wonder if this was a rebarrel of an obsolete 1871 rifle after the 1888 model was introduced.

mdevlin53 · January 8, 2012, 11:24 AM

I looked at a few sites and you could be right. It looks like the right configuration. I could only find one picture of the bolt that was not in the reciever and it was not very good quality. I will continue to surf and see if i can find a better picture. good lead to follow though.

James K · January 8, 2012, 10:57 PM

After the Model 1871 was adopted as a military rifle, many German gun makers more or less copied the action in sporting arms. I realize that it is hard for us to understand such a thing

but it was quite common.

Many German sporting arms of the pre-Nazi period were produced under a co-operative or "guild" system, where one maker turned out barrels, another actions, another stocks, etc. Since it would have required a billboard to list all the "makers", they chose to not put any names on the gun.

I doubt that there is any way to determine who made that rifle or where and when it was made. I very much doubt that a bolt can ever be found for it unless an identical rifle were to be found.

Jim

gyvel · January 9, 2012, 02:14 AM

I could use a few more pictures, but I am thinking you have a sporterized Prussian 1866 Chassepot cartridge conversion. After the Franco-Prussian War, the Germans converted large numbers of captured French Chassepot 11mm needle fire guns to 11mm Mauser. Modifications were done to the bolt to allow the firing of centerfire cartridges and to make it cock on opening.

I had one such conversion of a cavalry carbine, and it sure looks an awful lot like it.

What bothers me, though is that the tang is much longer than that of a Chassepot.

Famas · January 9, 2012, 06:33 PM

I do not believe this is a Chassepot conversion. I just looked at my Chassepot, and the hex shape of the barrel goes round at approximately 6.35 cm (2.5 inches) from the breech. The above rifle in question appears to retain it's hexagonal form all the way to the muzzle. I could be mistaken of course, but I strongly believe this is something else entirely.

mapsjanhere · January 9, 2012, 06:58 PM

Ok, one more mystery solved, the 108/49 marking indicates a 9.3 mm bore; early German proofs were using the British gauge markings, not the later mm marks.
A picture from the top would really help to identify the receiver. I'm surprised only the barrel is marked.

mdevlin53 · January 11, 2012, 06:14 PM

Wow what a lot to digest. The reciever on the Chasepot looks different in that there does not seeem to be a slot on the inside like the mauser has but one thing foe sure the spring under the reciever is almost identical in its configuration,

mdevlin53 · January 11, 2012, 06:39 PM

I have attached 3 more pictures as you can see(barely there is a slot in the reciever for possibly a locking lug. Also not the similarity of the spring assembly attached to the reciever to the Chasepot. I also do not see the screw on the reciever that is on the Chasepot. I would love to find a picture of a bolt from an M71 to compare but finding one has been dificult. Is the bot for the M71 the same as the M71-84?

mapsjanhere · January 11, 2012, 07:06 PM

That sure looks like a Gewehr 1871 receiver with that big groove in front of the chamber and the sear shape. Still looking for a good picture of a 1871, so far I can only find 1871/84 (which are close but not identical).

gyvel · January 13, 2012, 12:04 AM

Don't compare it to an original Chassepot, but, rather, to a Prussian capture Chassepot conversion to 11mm Mauser.

However, as was pointed out, the large headed screw is not present on your piece, and this is what keeps the bolt from coming all the way out.

1871 Mauser seems to be not very close at all.

Scorch · January 13, 2012, 01:54 AM

That is not a Gewehr 1871. Model 71 receivers were deeply rollmarked Gew 1871 (in Gothic script characters) on the left side rear, they have two "ears" at the rear bridge, the loading port is rounded at each end, it does not have a long tail, the octagonal shape is rounded at each end, and they are marked with the armory name (Amberg or Danzig) on the front receiver ring. Same for the 71/84, which additionally was tube-fed with a bolt-actuated carrier. I agree it is possibly a shop-made action for an 11X60Rmm (a very popular rifle cartridge in its time), very loosely based on the 1871 action, as stated above.

gyvel · January 13, 2012, 07:35 AM

I think we may be overlooking the fact that any competent machinist could have milled the flats to make the receiver completely hexagonal, so the fact that it isn't partially round may not matter. The receiver seems to be color case hardened.

gyvel · January 13, 2012, 07:56 AM

Kynoch conversion rifle?

mdevlin53 · January 13, 2012, 11:18 AM

I have seen a rifle that looks very similar on another board here is the link http://steyrmannlicher.yuku.com/topi...Stalking-Rifle
It says it is a Kettner stalking rifle and looks very similar to mine. The bolt from the Kynoch seems to be a close match as well. I am off now to follow the new lead.

gyvel · January 14, 2012, 02:12 PM

Wow! That Kettner rifle has a longer tang that is absent on some of the others. You may have solved the case!

Here is a photo of the left side of the receiver.

mapsjanhere · January 14, 2012, 03:16 PM

Which is identified here by the owner as sporterized Mauser 71 ...

michaelcj · January 14, 2012, 06:17 PM

That sure looks like a 98 Mauser bolt to me shroud safety and all. Have no clue about the barreled action.

MJ

mdevlin53 · January 14, 2012, 08:58 PM

Your right about the 98 mauser bolt i put it there for some scale

Scorch · January 14, 2012, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Which is identified here by the owner as sporterized Mauser 71 ...

Not quite. He says he believes it is a M71.

I actually have one of these rifles in th shop right now, and I am going to talk to the owner about where it came feom and if he knows what it is.

mdevlin53 · January 16, 2012, 04:23 PM

I want to thank you all for all your help. I must say for a first post i got most of the information i needed to identify this rifle. Now comes the hard part, one, finding a bolt to make it whole again or finding an owner who needs a good parts set. Hopefuly i can find the parts so i dont end up giving it away.

mdevlin53 · January 21, 2012, 03:48 PM

Some further information. The bore is about 3/8th or 9.5 mm and a 45 long colt will not go in all the way. I put one in the breach and the bullet hits the bore before the rim seats. (i was never going to try firing it). Any idea what round this one might be chambered for?

January 8, 2012, 09:45 AM	#5
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	The really odd part is the hexagonal single shot receiver with the large cut-out, which points towards a Gewehr 1871 system. But: The BUG marks on the barrel say post-1891. Which makes me wonder if this was a rebarrel of an obsolete 1871 rifle after the 1888 model was introduced. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

January 9, 2012, 06:58 PM	#10
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	Ok, one more mystery solved, the 108/49 marking indicates a 9.3 mm bore; early German proofs were using the British gauge markings, not the later mm marks. A picture from the top would really help to identify the receiver. I'm surprised only the barrel is marked. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying. Last edited by mapsjanhere; January 9, 2012 at 07:07 PM.

January 11, 2012, 07:06 PM	#13
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	That sure looks like a Gewehr 1871 receiver with that big groove in front of the chamber and the sear shape. Still looking for a good picture of a 1871, so far I can only find 1871/84 (which are close but not identical). __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

January 13, 2012, 01:54 AM	#15
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	That is not a Gewehr 1871. Model 71 receivers were deeply rollmarked Gew 1871 (in Gothic script characters) on the left side rear, they have two "ears" at the rear bridge, the loading port is rounded at each end, it does not have a long tail, the octagonal shape is rounded at each end, and they are marked with the armory name (Amberg or Danzig) on the front receiver ring. Same for the 71/84, which additionally was tube-fed with a bolt-actuated carrier. I agree it is possibly a shop-made action for an 11X60Rmm (a very popular rifle cartridge in its time), very loosely based on the 1871 action, as stated above. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services Last edited by Scorch; January 13, 2012 at 02:00 AM.

January 13, 2012, 07:35 AM	#16
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	I think we may be overlooking the fact that any competent machinist could have milled the flats to make the receiver completely hexagonal, so the fact that it isn't partially round may not matter. The receiver seems to be color case hardened. Last edited by gyvel; January 13, 2012 at 08:13 AM.

January 7, 2012, 10:47 PM	#2
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	I see a lot of those stocks around and they are usually on English .22 calibers. Other than that i don't know.

January 7, 2012, 11:24 PM	#3
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	It is certainly German with the BUG proofs. Other than that, all I can say is that it is a simple and early style bolt action sporting rifle. If you were proud of your product, wouldn't you put your trademark on it? There are a lot of nameless European guns and I don't understand it.

January 8, 2012, 07:45 AM	#4
mdevlin53 Member Join Date: January 7, 2012 Location: new york Posts: 21	I wasn't holding out much hope for an ID but it would be nice to know. I'll keep checking back, thanks

January 8, 2012, 11:24 AM	#6
mdevlin53 Member Join Date: January 7, 2012 Location: new york Posts: 21	I looked at a few sites and you could be right. It looks like the right configuration. I could only find one picture of the bolt that was not in the reciever and it was not very good quality. I will continue to surf and see if i can find a better picture. good lead to follow though.

January 8, 2012, 10:57 PM	#7
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	After the Model 1871 was adopted as a military rifle, many German gun makers more or less copied the action in sporting arms. I realize that it is hard for us to understand such a thing but it was quite common. Many German sporting arms of the pre-Nazi period were produced under a co-operative or "guild" system, where one maker turned out barrels, another actions, another stocks, etc. Since it would have required a billboard to list all the "makers", they chose to not put any names on the gun. I doubt that there is any way to determine who made that rifle or where and when it was made. I very much doubt that a bolt can ever be found for it unless an identical rifle were to be found. Jim

January 9, 2012, 06:33 PM	#9
Famas Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2009 Location: French, currently living in US Posts: 162	I do not believe this is a Chassepot conversion. I just looked at my Chassepot, and the hex shape of the barrel goes round at approximately 6.35 cm (2.5 inches) from the breech. The above rifle in question appears to retain it's hexagonal form all the way to the muzzle. I could be mistaken of course, but I strongly believe this is something else entirely.

January 11, 2012, 06:14 PM	#11
mdevlin53 Member Join Date: January 7, 2012 Location: new york Posts: 21	Wow what a lot to digest. The reciever on the Chasepot looks different in that there does not seeem to be a slot on the inside like the mauser has but one thing foe sure the spring under the reciever is almost identical in its configuration,

January 13, 2012, 11:18 AM	#18
mdevlin53 Member Join Date: January 7, 2012 Location: new york Posts: 21	I have seen a rifle that looks very similar on another board here is the link http://steyrmannlicher.yuku.com/topi...Stalking-Rifle It says it is a Kettner stalking rifle and looks very similar to mine. The bolt from the Kynoch seems to be a close match as well. I am off now to follow the new lead.

January 14, 2012, 03:16 PM	#20
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	Which is identified here by the owner as sporterized Mauser 71 ... __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

January 14, 2012, 06:17 PM	#21
michaelcj Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2011 Location: Lopez Island, WA Posts: 279	That sure looks like a 98 Mauser bolt to me shroud safety and all. Have no clue about the barreled action. MJ

January 14, 2012, 08:58 PM	#22
mdevlin53 Member Join Date: January 7, 2012 Location: new york Posts: 21	Your right about the 98 mauser bolt i put it there for some scale

January 16, 2012, 04:23 PM	#24
mdevlin53 Member Join Date: January 7, 2012 Location: new york Posts: 21	I want to thank you all for all your help. I must say for a first post i got most of the information i needed to identify this rifle. Now comes the hard part, one, finding a bolt to make it whole again or finding an owner who needs a good parts set. Hopefuly i can find the parts so i dont end up giving it away.

January 21, 2012, 03:48 PM	#25
mdevlin53 Member Join Date: January 7, 2012 Location: new york Posts: 21	Some further information. The bore is about 3/8th or 9.5 mm and a 45 long colt will not go in all the way. I put one in the breach and the bullet hits the bore before the rim seats. (i was never going to try firing it). Any idea what round this one might be chambered for?

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