Cutting a squib.

Carmady · December 11, 2018, 06:12 AM

The last time I shot my H&R 1906 22 was a little over a year ago, and the ammo was CCI Quiet 22 with an advertised velocity of 710 fps. No problems at all.

I took it to the range last week with another box of the same ammo and thought it was much quieter than I remembered. I shot a cylinder of seven rounds at the berm, which was wet, but couldn't see where the bullets were hitting since there was no dust for feedback. I loaded up again and walked up to the berm, and the cylinder locked up on round 10. There was no light where the bore/cylinder gap was supposed to be, and I noticed a LRN just shy of the muzzle. I got a good chuckle out of that.

Back home I used a .009" guitar string (thanks to the large b/c gap) with a flossing action to cut through the bullet which bridged the cylinder and barrel. Then the cylinder was removed and six bullets were hammered out from the barrel.

Went back a couple of days later and fired some 1150 fps 22s with no drama.

I can't figure out why it squibbed up like it did. I've seen guys on youtube shooting the Quiet 22s, and they cycled semi-auto rifles.

ThomasT · December 11, 2018, 03:30 PM

You are lucky if you didn't ring your barrel. I wouldn't shoot those in that gun again. Those H&R revolvers sometimes have very large cylinder gaps like you stated and need the more powerfully loaded ammo to get the bullet out the bore.

GarandTd · December 11, 2018, 06:54 PM

Any round can be a squib. Perhaps it was just coincidence that it was a low velocity round. If the first shot was a squib, the rest didn't have a choice. I had a squib round from high velocity Winchester 22 in my Heritage Rough Rider. I recognized the odd sound, removed the cylinder and found a bullet lodged about an inch from the muzzle of my 6.5" barrel.

GarandTd · December 11, 2018, 07:02 PM

ratshooter, what do you mean by "ring your barrel"?

Carmady · December 11, 2018, 08:12 PM

I loaded the cylinder twice, seven rounds each, 14 total. It locked up on the 10th round, and they all sounded the same when fired. Four unfired rounds were still in the cylinder, six fired bullets were in the barrel. That leaves four fired rounds, the first four fired, that made it past the muzzle. Whether they were stuck in the barrel and pushed out by the following shots, or flew out on their own, I have no idea. I never saw or heard anything to indicate that any one of them acted normal. Maybe the first shot was a squib, and caused the rest to sound muffled.

Last year I bought five boxes of the Quiet 22s at the same time from the same store. I fired 49 from one box last year, so I doubt if it was due to a different batch. Maybe round #50 from the first box felt left out and decided to rebel...don't know.

ThomasT · December 12, 2018, 10:40 AM

Quote:

ratshooter, what do you mean by "ring your barrel"?

That happens when a bullet sticks in the bore and a second bullet is fired behind it and the compressed air causes a bulge or Ring in the barrel from the expanding gases.

Sometimes it doesn't hurt the accuracy and sometimes the barrel is ruined. But either one reduces the value of the gun and should be avoided doing at all cost.

You can feel the ring in a barrel with a tight fitting patch on a jag. It will be a slight relief in pressure when pushing the patch down the bore. With the right light they can also be seen.

T. O'Heir · December 12, 2018, 01:23 PM

"...sometimes the barrel is ruined..." There's no 'sometimes' about it. The barrel is ruined.
Sounds like you need to call CCI's customer service. That box of ammo is defective.

DT Guy · December 12, 2018, 02:22 PM

Some of those old H&R barrels were like water pipes in size. I'd certainly examine the bore for ringing, but there's a distinct chance the low-powered .22's you were using, combined with the over-generous gap of the revolver, means the barrel might have survived unscathed.

And personally, I'd have used a roundwound string for that; better sawing action.

Larry

briandg · December 12, 2018, 02:58 PM

I'm not sure that CCI is to blame. H&R barrels are sometimes rough, oversized, and if a corded guitar string can go through the cylinder gap, that gap is too large to be used with low pressure ammo with a small charge, there just isn't enough power being pushed through the gap to force it through the barrel.

IMO, low power ammo should never be shot in a questionable gun. Aguila clearly says that the colibri ammo is to be used only in handguns, and they're right. They won't make it a foot up the barrel. Acorn rounds by RWS will clear a barrel and drop a squirrel with nothing but a tiny little pop.

The CCI CB shorts are quieter than an air rifle and have so much power that it's almost scary. IIRC they blew through a dry one inch phone book and wood wasn't safe either.

briandg · December 12, 2018, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Cutting a squib.

The juveniles who I grew up around would have laughed about that for weeks.

Chainsaw. · December 13, 2018, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by briandg

Acorn rounds by RWS will clear a barrel and drop a squirrel with nothing but a tiny little pop.

I used one that wizzed right through the heart and lungs of a squirrel this summer. Perfect squirrel medicine.

briandg · December 14, 2018, 09:37 AM

ABSOLUTELY. It's a shame that they are so darned expensive. They are as lethal as a full .22lr, but they don't always provide the clean, solid anchoring that you want unless the shot is optimal. I never fired them past fifty feet or so. I use a scope, set them right behind the shoulder, and never miss the vitals. They carried me through a squirrel jihad at my home one year, taking down one after another, and frankly, the thud when the stupid thing hit the ground was louder than the shot that killed him.

Then my dog would play with them for about a half hour, and the racket she raised drew the neighbor's attention.

Those things would have lodged within an inch or so. I don't know what the velocity is, but I am assuming that it was easily as powerful by KE measurements as even a high powered .22 air rifle.

Driftwood Johnson · December 14, 2018, 10:00 PM

Howdy

Pretty good trick, using a guitar string to saw through a bullet stuck in the forcing cone. I don't have any in front of me right now, but I suspect .009 is just a music wire string, not a wound string.

Regarding ringed barrels:

A ringed barrel is not necessarily the death of a firearm.

I have a few old 38 Special Smiths that somebody ringed the barrel in sometime before I bought them. Generally speaking, if the ring is not too bad, the bullet glides right past the ring without any problem. Never noticed any problem with poor accuracy either. Sometimes if you run your fingers along the barrel you can detect a slight bulge where the ring is. Sometimes the ring is not deep enough to telegraph through the metal to be felt on the outside. Sometimes you need a bright bore light to detect one. If you can see a bulged barrel plain as day without needing to feel it, I don't think I would shoot that one. Of course, the cartridge being fired should be taken into account too. A 22 LR is not going to develop the same pressure as a Magnum.

A ringed barrel may be the death knell for pinpoint long distance accuracy from a rifle, I don't really know, as I can't see that far any more. But it is not necessarily the death knell in a revolver, at least not as long as the strength of the barrel has not been critically compromised. Don't forget, with a revolver it is the cylinder, not the barrel, that bears the brunt of the pressure of a cartridge firing.

GarandTd · December 15, 2018, 03:39 PM

I asked about the ring because I noticed one in the barrel of my RR after the squib that I had experienced. The ring surprised me. I didn't stack rounds in the barrel behind the squib and the squib was pushed out rather easily with a brass cleaning rod. I suppose the blame could be placed with Heritage. I've heard the barrels are made out of a softer steel. I haven't noticed any accuracy issues, but I do have frequent keyholes with Federal bulk now. Only Federal though...odd.

ThomasT · December 17, 2018, 11:08 AM

If the OP could cut the stuck bullet with a .009 guitar string then thats an indication of how large the cylinder to barrel gap is. Thats a gas leak then add in the low power load and a stuck bullet is no mystery. And those old H&R guns nearly all have overlarge cylinder gaps.

I had one 32 long revolver from south america. INA IIRC and it had a .022 gap. I got rid of that gun pretty quick.

As for ruining the barrel in theory yes. I wouldn't buy a gun with a ringed barrel unless I got it really cheap. I had an old Remington bolt action rifle with a ring way down the barrel. It had no affect whatsoever on the accuracy of that rifle. I gave it to a young man and saw a target he shot with open sights at around 125 yards and he had 3 shots in a 1" group dead center of the bullseye.

If I were the OP I wouldn't shoot anything below at least standard velocity rounds in that gun. High speed would be even better. But stay away from the low powered ammo in that gun.

Carmady · December 17, 2018, 07:23 PM

After cleaning I took a quick measurement of the b/c gap and got .018" on the right and .020" on the left.

Quote:

Thats a gas leak then add in the low power load and a stuck bullet is no mystery.

The mystery is, why did 49 of 49 of the same rounds work 100% a year ago?
All I can figure is:
1) as GarandTd said, maybe the first shot was a squib, or
2) there was an obstruction in the barrel which prevented the first round from exiting the muzzle.

It seems to be okay now.

ThomasT · December 18, 2018, 12:04 PM

I have one H&R revolver. A model 732 32 long with 2.5 barrel. After reading this thread I measured my cylinder gap and I got .008. Still within spec but just barely. An .018 gap is huge. i can't tell you why 49 rounds worked and one didn't but I would stick to more powerful loadings from now on. Maybe the low power of the round prevented any damage to the bore. You got lucky.

December 11, 2018, 06:12 AM	#1
Carmady Senior Member Join Date: February 26, 2013 Location: on the lam Posts: 1,735	Cutting a squib. The last time I shot my H&R 1906 22 was a little over a year ago, and the ammo was CCI Quiet 22 with an advertised velocity of 710 fps. No problems at all. I took it to the range last week with another box of the same ammo and thought it was much quieter than I remembered. I shot a cylinder of seven rounds at the berm, which was wet, but couldn't see where the bullets were hitting since there was no dust for feedback. I loaded up again and walked up to the berm, and the cylinder locked up on round 10. There was no light where the bore/cylinder gap was supposed to be, and I noticed a LRN just shy of the muzzle. I got a good chuckle out of that. Back home I used a .009" guitar string (thanks to the large b/c gap) with a flossing action to cut through the bullet which bridged the cylinder and barrel. Then the cylinder was removed and six bullets were hammered out from the barrel. Went back a couple of days later and fired some 1150 fps 22s with no drama. I can't figure out why it squibbed up like it did. I've seen guys on youtube shooting the Quiet 22s, and they cycled semi-auto rifles.

December 11, 2018, 06:54 PM	#3
GarandTd Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2016 Location: Rural PA Posts: 1,639	Any round can be a squib. Perhaps it was just coincidence that it was a low velocity round. If the first shot was a squib, the rest didn't have a choice. I had a squib round from high velocity Winchester 22 in my Heritage Rough Rider. I recognized the odd sound, removed the cylinder and found a bullet lodged about an inch from the muzzle of my 6.5" barrel. __________________ 22lr, 20 gauge, 8mm Mauser, 35 Remington, 30-06, 5.56x45/223, 9mm, 380acp Last edited by GarandTd; December 11, 2018 at 07:00 PM.

December 11, 2018, 07:02 PM	#4
GarandTd Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2016 Location: Rural PA Posts: 1,639	ratshooter, what do you mean by "ring your barrel"? __________________ 22lr, 20 gauge, 8mm Mauser, 35 Remington, 30-06, 5.56x45/223, 9mm, 380acp

December 12, 2018, 01:23 PM	#7
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...sometimes the barrel is ruined..." There's no 'sometimes' about it. The barrel is ruined. Sounds like you need to call CCI's customer service. That box of ammo is defective. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

December 12, 2018, 02:22 PM	#8
DT Guy Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2001 Posts: 959	Some of those old H&R barrels were like water pipes in size. I'd certainly examine the bore for ringing, but there's a distinct chance the low-powered .22's you were using, combined with the over-generous gap of the revolver, means the barrel might have survived unscathed. And personally, I'd have used a roundwound string for that; better sawing action. Larry __________________ He who fights and runs away had better run pretty damn fast. Government, Anarchy and Chaos

December 11, 2018, 03:30 PM	#2
ThomasT Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 2,753	You are lucky if you didn't ring your barrel. I wouldn't shoot those in that gun again. Those H&R revolvers sometimes have very large cylinder gaps like you stated and need the more powerfully loaded ammo to get the bullet out the bore.

December 11, 2018, 08:12 PM	#5
Carmady Senior Member Join Date: February 26, 2013 Location: on the lam Posts: 1,735	I loaded the cylinder twice, seven rounds each, 14 total. It locked up on the 10th round, and they all sounded the same when fired. Four unfired rounds were still in the cylinder, six fired bullets were in the barrel. That leaves four fired rounds, the first four fired, that made it past the muzzle. Whether they were stuck in the barrel and pushed out by the following shots, or flew out on their own, I have no idea. I never saw or heard anything to indicate that any one of them acted normal. Maybe the first shot was a squib, and caused the rest to sound muffled. Last year I bought five boxes of the Quiet 22s at the same time from the same store. I fired 49 from one box last year, so I doubt if it was due to a different batch. Maybe round #50 from the first box felt left out and decided to rebel...don't know.

December 12, 2018, 02:58 PM	#9
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	I'm not sure that CCI is to blame. H&R barrels are sometimes rough, oversized, and if a corded guitar string can go through the cylinder gap, that gap is too large to be used with low pressure ammo with a small charge, there just isn't enough power being pushed through the gap to force it through the barrel. IMO, low power ammo should never be shot in a questionable gun. Aguila clearly says that the colibri ammo is to be used only in handguns, and they're right. They won't make it a foot up the barrel. Acorn rounds by RWS will clear a barrel and drop a squirrel with nothing but a tiny little pop. The CCI CB shorts are quieter than an air rifle and have so much power that it's almost scary. IIRC they blew through a dry one inch phone book and wood wasn't safe either. __________________ None.

December 14, 2018, 09:37 AM	#12
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	ABSOLUTELY. It's a shame that they are so darned expensive. They are as lethal as a full .22lr, but they don't always provide the clean, solid anchoring that you want unless the shot is optimal. I never fired them past fifty feet or so. I use a scope, set them right behind the shoulder, and never miss the vitals. They carried me through a squirrel jihad at my home one year, taking down one after another, and frankly, the thud when the stupid thing hit the ground was louder than the shot that killed him. Then my dog would play with them for about a half hour, and the racket she raised drew the neighbor's attention. Those things would have lodged within an inch or so. I don't know what the velocity is, but I am assuming that it was easily as powerful by KE measurements as even a high powered .22 air rifle. __________________ None.

December 14, 2018, 10:00 PM	#13
Driftwood Johnson Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2014 Location: Land of the Pilgrims Posts: 2,033	Howdy Pretty good trick, using a guitar string to saw through a bullet stuck in the forcing cone. I don't have any in front of me right now, but I suspect .009 is just a music wire string, not a wound string. Regarding ringed barrels: A ringed barrel is not necessarily the death of a firearm. I have a few old 38 Special Smiths that somebody ringed the barrel in sometime before I bought them. Generally speaking, if the ring is not too bad, the bullet glides right past the ring without any problem. Never noticed any problem with poor accuracy either. Sometimes if you run your fingers along the barrel you can detect a slight bulge where the ring is. Sometimes the ring is not deep enough to telegraph through the metal to be felt on the outside. Sometimes you need a bright bore light to detect one. If you can see a bulged barrel plain as day without needing to feel it, I don't think I would shoot that one. Of course, the cartridge being fired should be taken into account too. A 22 LR is not going to develop the same pressure as a Magnum. A ringed barrel may be the death knell for pinpoint long distance accuracy from a rifle, I don't really know, as I can't see that far any more. But it is not necessarily the death knell in a revolver, at least not as long as the strength of the barrel has not been critically compromised. Don't forget, with a revolver it is the cylinder, not the barrel, that bears the brunt of the pressure of a cartridge firing.

December 15, 2018, 03:39 PM	#14
GarandTd Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2016 Location: Rural PA Posts: 1,639	I asked about the ring because I noticed one in the barrel of my RR after the squib that I had experienced. The ring surprised me. I didn't stack rounds in the barrel behind the squib and the squib was pushed out rather easily with a brass cleaning rod. I suppose the blame could be placed with Heritage. I've heard the barrels are made out of a softer steel. I haven't noticed any accuracy issues, but I do have frequent keyholes with Federal bulk now. Only Federal though...odd. __________________ 22lr, 20 gauge, 8mm Mauser, 35 Remington, 30-06, 5.56x45/223, 9mm, 380acp

December 17, 2018, 11:08 AM	#15
ThomasT Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 2,753	If the OP could cut the stuck bullet with a .009 guitar string then thats an indication of how large the cylinder to barrel gap is. Thats a gas leak then add in the low power load and a stuck bullet is no mystery. And those old H&R guns nearly all have overlarge cylinder gaps. I had one 32 long revolver from south america. INA IIRC and it had a .022 gap. I got rid of that gun pretty quick. As for ruining the barrel in theory yes. I wouldn't buy a gun with a ringed barrel unless I got it really cheap. I had an old Remington bolt action rifle with a ring way down the barrel. It had no affect whatsoever on the accuracy of that rifle. I gave it to a young man and saw a target he shot with open sights at around 125 yards and he had 3 shots in a 1" group dead center of the bullseye. If I were the OP I wouldn't shoot anything below at least standard velocity rounds in that gun. High speed would be even better. But stay away from the low powered ammo in that gun.

December 18, 2018, 12:04 PM	#17
ThomasT Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 2,753	I have one H&R revolver. A model 732 32 long with 2.5 barrel. After reading this thread I measured my cylinder gap and I got .008. Still within spec but just barely. An .018 gap is huge. i can't tell you why 49 rounds worked and one didn't but I would stick to more powerful loadings from now on. Maybe the low power of the round prevented any damage to the bore. You got lucky.