Less Molon Labe, More Reaching Out

[Wag]

100% agree with the OP. It's like you were reading my mind.

What we need is effective dialogue on a one-to-one basis. I've taken my share of new shooters or even curiosity seekers to the range to teach them about guns. Some are noticeably fearful so they don't eve get to see a real gun in person until we've spent an hour (or as much time as needed) to talk about guns and gun safety in the comfort of my living room. YouTube videos on safety and sight picture/sight alignment are a key part of that discussion. Choose your videos carefully.

Keep up the good conversations. They can happen.

--Wag--

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Discussion of the validity of IQ testing and its predictive utility is off topic. The topic is outreach to promote the RKBA. So let's get back on track, please.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I appreciate that if you like a post. 44's was a good one. However, reposting the whole thing to say you like it, just uses up to much space.

If you see some forums, they become endless lists of quotes within quotes.

So I deleted that with no malice or foul. In general, a long quote isn't really needed. If you quote make it short and specific to the item in question.

Thank you.

[ATN082268]

Originally Posted by Tom Servo

I've cringed at Loesch and Nugent more than a few times over the last two months, but I also wonder does it matter?

The lines are pretty clearly drawn, and most peoples' minds are made up on the issue. We're on the wrong side of history and progress. We're backwards luddites from flyover country who can't be trusted to know what's good for us. And when we contest their assertions that punishing the majority for the crimes of a small minority constitutes sane or useful policy, we're domestic terrorists.

Then the people who use this sort of rhetoric hue and cry, "why can't we have a conversation?"

(Of course, "conversation" is codespeak for appeasement.)

It pains me that our political discourse has degenerated to that point, but I fear we have to take the hand we've been given. At this point, we need to dig our heels in, support groups to fight this out in the backrooms of congress, and wait until such a time the RKBA isn't in such danger to soften the message.

All the time I've been in the gun culture, I've never seen a situation in which academia, the media, and politicians (even a former Supreme Court Justice) are all so openly and brazenly against the RKBA. This is far worse than 1994, and for now, it really is an us vs. them situation.

This. I think the 2nd Amendment/ Gun Rights side is kind of in the position now where they can argue along logical/factual lines similar to 2+2=4 and still lose the debate because the government, media, Hollywood and education establishments are generally anti-gun. It is ironic in a way because once the 2nd Amendment goes down the tubes, a lot of other rights will quickly follow with anti-gun zealots running around like chickens with their heads cut off wondering how this could happen.

[44 AMP]

I'll try to stay on point, but its not easy, , if I drift, please steer me back...

Less Molon Labe, More Reaching Out...

Agree with more reaching out, though there are a great many blocks in that path. Not so sure I agree with Less Molon Labe, though I think we could be less vocal about it, without hurting our position.

One of the blocks against reaching out, was carefully crafted and as with most, sold to us as something to increase safety, and that is the laws and restrictions that make it difficult, or even an actual crime to teach children about firearms, with real firearms.

It was a gradual thing, but we are now in a place where laws and many people's attitudes seem to want children to know nothing about firearms, other than what they see on a tv or game screen, until they reach that magical age of maturity, (18, now being moved to 21 in many cases) at which point they cannot, by law, stop them from getting a gun, legally.

Combine a virtually enforced ignorance about what real guns do to real things when shot in the real world, and then grant them full legal rights on their 18th (21st?) birthday, and what do you expect?

Of course a percentage will be irresponsible. A tiny fraction of that percent, criminally so. You (and here, "you" means general anti gun attitudes and laws) never allowed them to be taught anything different.

There are still people living who remember that the school they went to had a rifle team. It wasn't an "evil" thing to teach children what guns were, and how to use them properly. In some parts of the country it still isn't thought of as "evil" but in those areas where the most people live the closest together, its a very, very common belief.

its darn near a self fulfilling prophecy, if you can't teach the youth to be responsible, you get irresponsible adults, and so you need more laws to make them responsible. Which seldom actually works, as laws can generally only be applied after the fact.

Progun messages are seldom accepted and run by the mainstream media. "Guns are BAD!" messages are run 24/7. That is the right of the people who own the media. Not fair to us, but it is their right to do as they see fit with their property. All we really ask is the same right with our property, and they won't allow it!

Those of us who have been around a while have watched (and fought) them taking things from us, that we used to be able to have, or do, over, and over, and over. After a while, we tend to get a bit resentful.

So, yeah, we've been pushed, and pushed, and pushed, and I can see how one can get a "come and take them" attitude. How many times does it take for someone to swat you upside the head with a rock and take your stuff before you realize that guy isn't acting in your best interests???

reaching out?? The gun culture is the most open and accepting one I know. As long as you aren't trying to stomp on our rights, you are welcomed, and accepted. This is something unknown to those outside the gun culture. And something the anti gunners devoutly hope never becomes known.

Yes, we have our share of curmudgeons, cranks and out right idiots who do us no favors with their rants and attitudes, but what group doesn't have those?? None I know of.

When you take those beginners to the range, and start teaching them, what is the attitude you normally find in the others there? Is it surly, disrespectful, get away from me...or is it more like. Hey, good to see ya, need any help???"

I've found the former from a few individuals, but it is the latter that generally prevails.

As a group, we're not bad people, though the other side works 24/7 to convince everyone that we are.

So where are we?? "kiss off, its our right!!" doesn't bring newcomers into the fold very often. But if all we do is "dialog" and compromise, there won't be a fold to bring newcomers into.

I am sick of seeing signs that say things like "NRA condones murder" and "2nd Amendment is killing our kids!"

These are lies. Simple, straightforward, lies. What's our response? The only rational one, the truth. But they won't accept the truth, not the zealots, any way, and those zealots spend a lot of effort ensuring the non-zealots and the unconvinced don't even get to hear the truth.

Reality matters less than the distorted image of reality that the anti's have proven to be masters at packaging and selling to the public. They are masters of the "big lie" tactics and use it constantly.

Our moral compass generally prevents us from using that tactic at all. We consider it dishonest. Plus, we suck at it when we do actually try it.

We get attacked, and if we don't defend our position, we lose (something), but if we do defend our position, our attackers scream, "look! they're attacking us! this proves they are the bad people we told you they were!!!"
(another lie)

We're not in an absolutely no win situation, but things aren't good, and we desperately need a Capt Kirk type to "change the conditions of the test". Sadly, the only place I'm seeing that right now, is when I put the right disc in my player...

[JERRYS.]

you can extend the olive branch with one hand while still holding a sword in the other.

[UncleEd]

Molon Labe translation to
English: When I turn my
back, shoot me and then
take my guns.

That whole gun concept
with the skull-like helmeted
creature was and just plain
silly.

No wonder uncommitted
and non-gun people eventually
end up thinking gun people
are a bunch of kooks.

So, yes, reach out. Be normal.

[buck460XVR]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

My personal experience over a working man's lifetime of 40+ years, and working with numbers of engineers and some scientists is that a degree or a diploma hanging on the on the wall proves only that the owner didn't flunk out.

period.

They may, or may not know what they are doing. They may be wonderfully skilled and competent, they may be clueless idiots who somehow barely manage to keep from getting fired. The Diploma only proves they graduated. Even if they graduated at the top of their classes, it does NOT automatically guarantee competence in the "real" world.

While one's intelligence does not always parallel their common sense, the universal definition of the word means one's ability to " to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations"'. While degrees and diplomas do not create/influence intelligence, they are a sign that those same folks have intelligence.....and the ability to learn and understand. Common sense, or what you refer to as "competence in the "real" world" is more dictated by "lived experiences" than book learning and is also affected by intelligence. IOWs, you can teach or make someone understand, even common sense, if they are intelligent. That is why the use of sound reasoning an intelligent arguments/discussions, IMHO, is better than just posting the same old Facebook Memes and wearing NRA T-Shirts. Kinda all I am trying to say.

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

The worst part about this is the attitudes, and social groups that are too prevalent with many. The blue collar world has its own version, to be sure, but its mostly a reverse reaction to the snobbery displayed by too many people with degrees, or "ring knockers".

I have met (and worked with all too many) a lot of people who simply will not listen to ANY ideas (about anything) from people they do not consider their social or educational equal. And, along with that is often (but not always) a blind devotion and acceptance of any utterance, no matter how stupid, from those they consider their social/educational superiors.

Of this I agree. My problem is that I see it on both sides, and many times, especially on these types of forums....and again, it's easy to talk down about another religion, when standing in our church. Doesn't change anyone's opinion outside those doors tho.......

You yourself give us a good example of what you are talking about.

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

the doctors professors, engineers, etc with that attitude won't listen to us, because we don't have their degrees, so therefore we don't know anything worth listening to. The other side of the coin is people automatically listening to, and respecting every thing they say, simply because they have degrees.

No Doctor's diploma or Professor's degree gives them the lifetime's worth of real experience I have. So, why, in my reverse snobbery, should I listen to them? Especially when they are spouting crap.

One man's "crap" is another man's "Gospel". Justifying one's own snobbery because someone else is a snob, is just the kettle calling the pot black. Again, we all are "ignorant" about something. We ain't stupid until we refuse to, or are incapable of learning or understanding the other side. We don't have to agree tho, nor does that makes us an "idiot".

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Likewise, no 17 year old, no matter how traumatized by a horrible experience has any "qualifications" in my opinion, to tell me how to live my life.

I respect their right to their opinions, and will defend the principle that they have the right to express them, just as I do. Doesn't mean they are right, or that I have to obey their diktats...

In a year or so that 17 year old may very well, because of his/her right to vote, tell you how to live you life, especially when it comes to legal firearm ownership. In our country, the way our system works, the majority is what tells us what is right. Their diktats may become law of the land unless we use sound and intelligent information to sway them to, or to keep them on our side. They also are what is going to dictate the future of firearm ownership to our kids and grand-kids. We can embrace the future and try and mold it, or we can ignore it, talk down to it and allow it to find it's own way. I know for my kids and grand-kids, what I prefer.

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Yes, I'm old and I'm tired, and I've been beating my head against that wall so long I'm nearly blind from the brick dust. So, here's my share of the torch, I'm passing it to you, I wish you well. But I have no great hopes for the future.

Reach out all you can, as you can, if you can find someone to reach out to...and if your message is even allowed to be spoken. Good Luck with that.

There is hope, not a lot, but some, and some might be enough, if things go just the right way.

As a gun owner & user, I've lived through every gun control law since 1968. Despite all the promises, and all the additional laws, the situation the laws were claimed to improve, has not gotten significantly better.

Quite often seems to be just the opposite, to me. But then, what do I know, I don't have a degree....

I am tired too, 44 AMP, but I ain't giving up, and I can see a bright future ahead. I have reached out, found my message allowed to be spoken, and found some folks willing to listen, when approached with an appropriate discussion. I also lived thru the assassination of JFK, Bobby and MLK and the reverse of sentiment towards unrestricted gun ownership. I too have seen the tide rise and fall, depending on how long since the last mass shooting. The American people are not dumb, but like you are tired. Tired of hearing the same ol' cliches and seeing/hearing of horrendous gun crimes.....and some of them are horrendous, regardless of how ardent of a gun owner you are. I doubt if there are any quick and easy fixes, especially ones that both sides will heartily agree upon. I seriously doubt if there will be any new major gun control established at the Federal level, as long as we continue the fight using sound methods. But unless we strive to make our arguments the best we can, we will end up with the losing hand......of that I am sure.

[RC20]

'm very skeptical of that statistic. On one hand, the antis claim we have more guns than people in this country. Then they go on to tell us not that many people actually own guns.

The first thing to do when you don't like the data is to consider it fake.

I certainly can't prove its true, but seeing as how the majority of the population lives in a city, gun range time is expensive if they would bother. Where I live its much higher, but we are low population wise.

My best research and due diligence says it is.

As much snobbery goes up as goes down. Just because someone is educated down not mean they are an idiot nor that they look down on you.

I fix stuff for a living, I don't design it. If civilization depended on me to design something we would have gotten about as far as a wooden club.

We all live in different worlds, the best are the ones who contribute to it and the worst ones are the ones who leach. That include white color crime.

What is unrealistic is expecting someone to share your passion for one amendment when that amendment does not touch their lives (the others do)

And I sure did not see the 2nd stop the illegal wire tapping the government engaged in after 9/11. Or the setting up of FISA courts that no one knows who is on or any review of their rulings (well after all they are secret aren't they?)

Ruling that you can take someone home so they can buyild a mall (not a highway, not a school (which I have never seen) or any kind of public work, but a private entity?

Or people that insist that there are millions of pillage voters when in fact (if you believe the election official which inclines a great many republicans) there is virtually none?

I had a guy who argues with me, when I asked for sources they were all like Brightbart, they had an agenda and the truth was more like a bowel of spaghetti. No, the news does not get always it "right" but that is not a given prejudice (it can be) but ignorance. A new caster knows diddly bout engines, I don't expect them to. We do have to be reasonably well read and informed and not stuck in a stove pipe we can't evaluate issues and data.

Corporations are citizens? When in fact your dollars beat my minuscule ones all hollow and I am disenfranchised by that and gerrymandering (no matter who does it)

What that tells me is that the 2nd has failed in its intent and touches too few lives and they see the consequences of it (or don't see it doing anything about those liberties we hold so dear and are going away).

When a credit agency can be hacked (by a known security flaw they did not patch) and the government refuses to set standar5ds let alone prosecute them giving all my personal information to the Chinese and Russians? (to be sold to crooks who then steal my identity which I have to spend endless hours un-stealing)

The very things I need to function are part of binding arbitration agreements that are setup by the very firm that is causing you to need a resolution in the first place?

I see my liberties eroding and I don't see the 2nd doing anything, nor do I think it can frankly.

What I do see is a new generation that is going to upend things for better or worse, but then who let the new generation out of the box without a solid background?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Folks, there have been a few reasonable points on how the RKBA community needs better outreach. There are some folks who still don't get that. We've some recent well thought out philosophical musings on the future of the country.

However, we have wandered far afield from the OP. Thus, I think following our paradigm, when we wander so much (even if interesting), it's time to shut down.

If someone has a interesting take on improving outreach (not denying we need it), we can start a new thread but it has to be new, IMHO.

Take a person to the range. Listen to a neutral and antigunner and try to be polite and convincing. So now a gentle close.