Nazi Germany - Page 2

Double Naught Spy · February 20, 2010, 11:09 AM

I have to wonder how if the guy killed 20 German officers with this gun and was in Auschwitz, what happened to the gun was he was interred? So not only did the guy kill 20 officers with it, but the gun was in a safe place when he got arrested and he was able to recover it after being in the POW camp?

If the guy was able to do such a good fabrication job, why wasn't he making zip guns for his fellow Jews?

$30,000 from a Jewish museum? Not likely - not without documentary proof.

Quote:

The lipstick case story is true, except that they were used in underground Jewish arms workshops is pre-Israel "Palestine", not wartime Europe.

http://benatlas.com/2009/07/life-in-...n-1948-part-2/

Quote:

About 1942 Haganah obtained a specimen and realised the jackpot as they had a lot of disparate rifles in their caches with little ammunition, some being 19th century single shots. These were now dismantled for the barrels to saw up to make four Stems with garage mmachinery to make the butts and bodies. Ammunition was stolen or made from bulk imports of lipstick cases for cartridge cases.

In the few places I can find this mentioned on the web, none have any actual documentation of a lipstick cartridge.

jonnyc · February 20, 2010, 12:31 PM

At the Ayalon "factory" near Rehovot, they explain that a large quantity were imported. Some were reformed into larger odd-sized cases for older weapons, but most were recyled into "buttons" to be made into usable cases for 9mms, etc.

Myke_Hart · February 20, 2010, 05:06 PM

Does the gun look like this?

This gun looks very much like your description.

Guide Lamp Liberator Pistol 'Woolworth Gun'

This gun was distributed to German Jews by the US and made by General Motors.
http://www.genitron.com/P2Unique-Detail.asp?ID=13

UpandAtIt · February 20, 2010, 06:07 PM

Concerning the lipstick story I mentioned. I learned of this on the History Channel in that "Cities of the Underworld" series where that guy shows stuff, civilizations and interesting subjects UNDERGROUND. They showed a machine shop built under a laundry in which there were reforming die presses, priming presses all set up in series and production. The bullets were tin encased with lead. The firearms they showed were a 19teens's Mauser, 30-30 winchester of some sorts and what looked like a single shot Martini high walled rifle.

They noted there were 10 of these shops all over Europe and the mideast

I had to laugh when I watched the show because the lil old Jewish guy giving the tour told the host that the act of trimming the cartridge opening for correct length is called "Circumcision."

They made their own smokeless powder and also made their own primers that were filled with home made impact explosives. They showed a tunnel that was used for testing that they shot into.

When I was at the Hollocost Museum, there was a section on expedient weapons and ammo and they had a full work up area of the "Lipstick Case" saga and story. Some of the weapons made by hand and with simple tools like hammers, files and crude measurement tools look as good or better than some of the commercial crap being sold today. Their STENs and Thompsons were amazing and added features never adopted in the commercial / Military models.

Some of the barrels were ingenous, one was wrapped / rolled automobile steel, like from fenders, trunks and hoods and wrapped around a correct bore sized mandrel, then the seam was welded and ground.

It is truly an amazing story of perserverance and dedication to their existance and freedom.

The picture above is simply a Liberator Pistol and the one that started the thread sounded even more crude and also said it was a rimfire of some kind. The Liberator was only made in .45 and .9mm that I know of.

hickstick_10 · February 20, 2010, 06:47 PM

The liberator pistol was not made in 22 rimfire, they were not adistributed amound the german jews by GM. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FP-45_Liberator

And Thompsons were never made in under ground machine shops, maybe they were worked on/repaired?

Myke_Hart · February 20, 2010, 07:28 PM

Yeah I did not see where he stated it was a .22. I see it now.

James K · February 20, 2010, 08:02 PM

Sorry, but no one ever made cartridge cases out of lipstick cases unless they melted them down and started from scratch. The thin tubes would never stand any pressure and there is no place for the primer. I am confused over where this is supposed to have taken place. In Nazi Germany? In the Warsaw ghetto? In Palestine? Where would people in such dire straits get lipstick cases, and if under oppression, wouldn't the authorities wonder who was making or wearing all that lipstick. It would be more credible if someone said that ammunition was smuggled in boxes marked "lipstick" or something like that.

I have not yet been to the Holocaust Museum, but will check on that story when I have the chance. It sounds like something that started as a joke and was taken seriously.

IMHO, any article that talks about "STEM" guns has very little credibility on firearms issues, and the History Channel has even less. (They once showed an AK-47 and an SKS in a story about Bonnie and Clyde.)

Jim

jonnyc · February 20, 2010, 09:28 PM

If you read my post above you will see that the "underground" factory using the lipstick cases was in Israel, called "Ayalon" near Rehovot, and was in use from approxomately 1945-49. How much use was made of lipstick cases I cannot say, but they did get some, and they did use them for some purposes.

radom · February 21, 2010, 06:52 AM

Probably some sort of cheep pre war tin "cycle gun" along the shades of the chrome U-Boot lugers.

UpandAtIt · February 21, 2010, 02:33 PM

Jim Keenan: 1st if what you say is true, then NO reloaders use other ammo to reform into wildcat or needed ammo by annealing and using forming dies. I personally have taken 30-06, .44, 444 Marlin and 7mm cases and made other ammo. They do need to be annealed though prior to doing so and this is usally done with a Bernzo-matic torch with the case heads in water. I have even formed my own copper jackets at home with just copper sheet stock and a hand hammered formed chisel die I made. Then I filled them with lead. If I could do it then damn near anyone with a lick of sense could do it. Some of those Jewish tool makers were very talented and intelligent folks when it comes to making things work.

On this one Jim you are wrong and proven so via world history and documented proof.

The fact the Germans and Arabs and whoever did not realize what was happening to the lipstick cases, it did go un-noticed. The History Channel story showed the one in Palestine (now Israel since 1948). The Holocost Museum shows underground shops in Euro, and Mideast.

Just for giggles I looked at my moms lipstick cases she still has from the 30's and 40's. Of the 7 I checked, 5 were brass, 1 steel or tin and one was aluminum. I measured the wall thickness of the 5 brass ones and they ranged from .105 to just under .035. This is easily enough wall thickness for forming and reforming once annealed. NOT MELTED DOWN. No I did not try to form any bullets out of one, she would have whacked me with her walker.

Bullet cases in my experience over years of reloading and shooting "Stretch" and need to be trimmed. Sometimes they do get brittle and torn when they are stretch too thin, but that is far and few between for such failures.

Have you ever seen new ammo made at the factory? Guess what, they do it a cpl different ways. The way that is applicable here is how they take brass and/or copper billets & plates/discs and take them through a progressive die to form the case, head, neck. In the final forming they use a spinning process with a stylus to smooth out any imperfections. During this whole process the brass hardens (work hardening) and needs to be re-annealed at points for the next operation. It seems to me they work with some mighty thin case walls w/o tearing them. The primer pockets were usually done with a "Nail Header" Machine and then finished off with forming dies/punches.

They, meaning the Jewish people reworked thousands of brass lipstick cases. Once annealed, brass will do just about anything you want. The Holocost Museum is a very interesting, sad and a glorius place to learn about the struggles of humans. The museum display shows the progressive forming that was done on the cases and have many examples on display. Feel free to contact them for the info on the who, what, when and where of the "Lipstick Case into Bullets" story.

The Jewish people were not allowed to buy ammunition of any sort. They were allowed however to buy sundries and house hold goods. The museum states over 30,000 rounds were made from the bottom sections into rifle calibers and the lids were made into pistol calibers and the primers. History Channel only stated it was in the thousands.

I find the History Channel fairly accurate on most subjects. I am sure if they showed a AK and SKS it was in relation to talking about gang violence and not just Bonnie & Clyde. Please feel free to tell R. Lee Ermy to his face he does not or History Channel does not know jack shyte about something LOL. Are there extremly small details wrong of left for the imagination in some History Channel shows, yes, most likely so.

I am sure "STEM" was just a simple typo for STEN. Not all of us are perfect in their writing skills, I know I am not. Could have also meant that the cut down barrel STEMS were used to make other weapons.

Note: I shall chat no more of this issue as it is slightly off subject. So let it be written, so let it be done...* waves hand accross the land to make it so.

Chris_B · February 21, 2010, 02:50 PM

What was that all about? You took some off-hand comments really personally

hickstick_10 · February 21, 2010, 03:05 PM

When anything is discussed on the net relating to the holocaust, there may be doubters on certain aspects, and then there are the very aggressive ones who seem to get very upset about any civil discussion.

Reckon this thread will probably get worse

Double Naught Spy · February 21, 2010, 04:08 PM

Okay UpandAtIt, you say there is documented proof of lipstick tubes being made into cartridge cases, but you don't provide any documented proof. I looked, but did not find anything. How about you providing some of that documented proof source material?

hickstick_10 · February 21, 2010, 05:23 PM

I'm not doubting just curious on something here.

So rifle cartridges were made out of lip stick tubes, were they berdan primed, if so thats one hell of a forming job for a lipstick tube. Other question is, how did they form the head? I could see a lipstick case being made into an old style balloon head cartridge, but a balloon head rifle cartridge that handles a smokeless rifle load? That Im kinda skeptical on.

**44 AMP** · February 21, 2010, 07:57 PM

That they get things around 90% right. Unless you are talking about something like global warming, where they don't seem to vet the programs that they air.

But the 10% that they don't get right can be little things,(usually) or big things (sometimes). One cna never tell. General History and military history and firearms in particular have been one of my hobbies for decades, the main difference between an enthusiastic hobbiest and a professional is that a professional get paid. Some times, the amateur is actually more skilled or knowledgable than the professional.

Just because the History Channel says something is so, doesn't actually make it so.
Gunny Ermy is a great guy, but while fairly knowledgable, isn't an expert on everything. Sometimes his researchers screw up too!

James K · February 21, 2010, 09:53 PM

OK, UpAndAtIt, if you can make cartridge cases out of those thin lipstick tubes, please do so, and post pictures. Then fire them and post pics. You are so unknowledgeable about what is required of a cartridge case in regard to containing pressure, that I tend to doubt your claimed expertise in reloading and case forming. (A bullet jacket is NOT the same thing as a cartridge case in terms of standing up to pressure.)

Making one cartridge case out of another is one thing. Making a center fire cartridge case out of a thin piece of brass or aluminum is quite another. Why do you think cartridges have that thick part at the rear? Would they bother with that if they could just use thin brass all the way around?

So, hurry up and make those cartridges out of your mom's discarded lipstick tubes and let us know how you get on. I am willing to eat crow if you do it, but I suspect you would be eating a lot of hot gas and burning powder first.

Jim

545days · February 21, 2010, 11:41 PM

As I recall from the book "Oh Jerusalem", the Jews purchased a large quantity of cartridge casings which had been put through the first few steps of manufacture, yet were still unfinished. The unfinished casings were then labeled as "Lipstick cases" in order to smuggle them past the British who controlled the region, and had banned the importation of arms.

Edit: I believe the partially produced casings were around step 5 as shown in the attached link about how cartridge brass is made http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com...brass-is-made/

Uncle Buck · February 22, 2010, 09:08 AM

It is possible that the guy was sent to the prison camps for something other than the assassination of the Nazi officers. I do agree that if the Germans knew about the assassination, they would have killed him outright.

The serial numbers could be easily traced with the holocaust museum by checking that number against their records and seeing if the names match up with the original owner/maker of the firearm.

Speculation on all our parts.

My grandfather worked in a factory that made lipstick tubes and they had an agreement with the defense department (maybe it was the war department when he worked there

) that if the defense department needed more ammunition, the machinery would be used to make cartridges. I do not remember the name of the factory or the name of the program the DOD used to make these requirements, but at one time a lot of factories did have this agreement. I do not remember if there was a tax benefit from these agreements or some kind of monetary advantage to the company by signing these types of agreements.

James K · February 22, 2010, 04:51 PM

Any company with experience in drawing metal can probably make cartridge cases, but the tooling and equipment needed for drawing cases is considerably different and requires a lot more force. Further, equipment is needed for head forming, primer pocket forming, flash hole punching, extractor groove cutting, shoulder and neck forming and annealing at various stages, none of which would be needed with a simple product like a lipstick case.

The "smuggling" theory sounds more plausible, but why (or how) could they get partially formed cases through? It is hard to believe a customs agent would not recognize cartridge cases even if only partly formed.

Jim

Chris_B · February 22, 2010, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Speculation on all our parts.

Naturally. But the bell of plausibility is not tolling hard:

Let's say he killed those officers with the gun, and nobody knew. Then he was imprisoned for another reason. Where'd the gun come from later on? Did he hide it in his sock and conceal it while in a concentration camp? Preposterous. Did he stash it at his home and then come back to find it? Extremely unlikely

Anything that could have happened is possible and I will not say its impossible for somebody to hide a gun and then find it later because of course it's very possible- improbable in this case but not impossible. But barring any solid info, all we can do is postulate and add the pluses and minuses and make educated guesses based on what we see

mdemetz · March 20, 2010, 09:25 AM

The articles I found say they were importing copper. The reason they gave for the import permits was to make Kosher Lipstick cases.

http://www.travelpost.com/ME/Israel/...r/entry/151744

Gunplummer · March 20, 2010, 06:23 PM

Quite a show you guys are putting on. I just read it today. The part about the sheet metal barrel made from wrapping sheet metal around a mandrel is true. I own a .22 Hamilton rifle made in this way. Just an observation, I am not leaning one way or another.

Chris_B · March 20, 2010, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Quite a show you guys are putting on

?? What do you mean?

gyvel · March 21, 2010, 03:10 AM

Quote:

The "smuggling" theory sounds more plausible, but why (or how) could they get partially formed cases through? It is hard to believe a customs agent would not recognize cartridge cases even if only partly formed

Some British personnel were sympathetic to the plight of the Jews with the memory of German death camps still fresh in their minds. Also, there is something called a "bribe."

johnwilliamson062 · March 22, 2010, 06:56 PM

I am also doubtful of this story, but i would not say it is impossible.

You have to remember Jews of every profession were interned. They also had a considerable amount of time to work on any such projects, although not like POWs. Could John Browning make a zip gun that killed 20 officers and fired rounds out of lipstick brass? I would bet he could have. In fact, I am going to make the claim that given two years where this was my only escape from dismal reality I could figure something out or at least have something blow up in my hand.

This guy could have very easily been a very skilled artisan used to filing out intricate and precise clock works by hand.

I like how people cited the history channel and Wikipedia to refute others claims. History channel is all about entertainment. I can find a historian that claims Daid Karesh was the second coming and if history channel thought it would get ratings they would distribute it as fact. Wikipedia is little better than a bathroom stall. If you are looking for a good time, call that number you might get lucky, but don't be surprised if you get an angry father of a 14 year old girl that picks up.

Would love to see those pictures to see if this is a zip gun made after the war, something mass produced with a made up story, or maybe just as described accepting a little exaggeration(so maybe he only killed 20 soldiers or 1 soldier, who cares).
Did the serial number match those tattooed on his wrist?

Smuggling the cases through incomplete would not surprise me at all and seems VERY plausible. That customs agent is a bureaucrat. This is just like a flat. It isn't a "gun" so you can make/sell as you please.

February 21, 2010, 04:08 PM	#38
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	Okay UpandAtIt, you say there is documented proof of lipstick tubes being made into cartridge cases, but you don't provide any documented proof. I looked, but did not find anything. How about you providing some of that documented proof source material? __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

February 21, 2010, 07:57 PM	#40
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,817	Me experience with the History Channel is... That they get things around 90% right. Unless you are talking about something like global warming, where they don't seem to vet the programs that they air. But the 10% that they don't get right can be little things,(usually) or big things (sometimes). One cna never tell. General History and military history and firearms in particular have been one of my hobbies for decades, the main difference between an enthusiastic hobbiest and a professional is that a professional get paid. Some times, the amateur is actually more skilled or knowledgable than the professional. Just because the History Channel says something is so, doesn't actually make it so. Gunny Ermy is a great guy, but while fairly knowledgable, isn't an expert on everything. Sometimes his researchers screw up too! __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 22, 2010, 09:08 AM	#43
Uncle Buck Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2009 Location: West Central Missouri Posts: 2,592	It is possible that the guy was sent to the prison camps for something other than the assassination of the Nazi officers. I do agree that if the Germans knew about the assassination, they would have killed him outright. The serial numbers could be easily traced with the holocaust museum by checking that number against their records and seeing if the names match up with the original owner/maker of the firearm. Speculation on all our parts. My grandfather worked in a factory that made lipstick tubes and they had an agreement with the defense department (maybe it was the war department when he worked there ) that if the defense department needed more ammunition, the machinery would be used to make cartridges. I do not remember the name of the factory or the name of the program the DOD used to make these requirements, but at one time a lot of factories did have this agreement. I do not remember if there was a tax benefit from these agreements or some kind of monetary advantage to the company by signing these types of agreements. __________________ Inside Every Bright Idea Is The 50% Probability Of A Disaster Waiting To Happen.

February 20, 2010, 12:31 PM	#27
jonnyc Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2009 Location: PA Posts: 1,731	At the Ayalon "factory" near Rehovot, they explain that a large quantity were imported. Some were reformed into larger odd-sized cases for older weapons, but most were recyled into "buttons" to be made into usable cases for 9mms, etc.

February 20, 2010, 05:06 PM	#28
Myke_Hart Member Join Date: February 14, 2010 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 24	Does the gun look like this? This gun looks very much like your description. Guide Lamp Liberator Pistol 'Woolworth Gun' This gun was distributed to German Jews by the US and made by General Motors. http://www.genitron.com/P2Unique-Detail.asp?ID=13

February 20, 2010, 06:07 PM	#29
UpandAtIt Junior member Join Date: February 14, 2010 Posts: 233	Concerning the lipstick story I mentioned. I learned of this on the History Channel in that "Cities of the Underworld" series where that guy shows stuff, civilizations and interesting subjects UNDERGROUND. They showed a machine shop built under a laundry in which there were reforming die presses, priming presses all set up in series and production. The bullets were tin encased with lead. The firearms they showed were a 19teens's Mauser, 30-30 winchester of some sorts and what looked like a single shot Martini high walled rifle. They noted there were 10 of these shops all over Europe and the mideast I had to laugh when I watched the show because the lil old Jewish guy giving the tour told the host that the act of trimming the cartridge opening for correct length is called "Circumcision." They made their own smokeless powder and also made their own primers that were filled with home made impact explosives. They showed a tunnel that was used for testing that they shot into. When I was at the Hollocost Museum, there was a section on expedient weapons and ammo and they had a full work up area of the "Lipstick Case" saga and story. Some of the weapons made by hand and with simple tools like hammers, files and crude measurement tools look as good or better than some of the commercial crap being sold today. Their STENs and Thompsons were amazing and added features never adopted in the commercial / Military models. Some of the barrels were ingenous, one was wrapped / rolled automobile steel, like from fenders, trunks and hoods and wrapped around a correct bore sized mandrel, then the seam was welded and ground. It is truly an amazing story of perserverance and dedication to their existance and freedom. The picture above is simply a Liberator Pistol and the one that started the thread sounded even more crude and also said it was a rimfire of some kind. The Liberator was only made in .45 and .9mm that I know of.

February 20, 2010, 06:47 PM	#30
hickstick_10 Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2009 Posts: 477	The liberator pistol was not made in 22 rimfire, they were not adistributed amound the german jews by GM. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FP-45_Liberator And Thompsons were never made in under ground machine shops, maybe they were worked on/repaired?

February 20, 2010, 07:28 PM	#31
Myke_Hart Member Join Date: February 14, 2010 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 24	Yeah I did not see where he stated it was a .22. I see it now.

February 20, 2010, 08:02 PM	#32
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Sorry, but no one ever made cartridge cases out of lipstick cases unless they melted them down and started from scratch. The thin tubes would never stand any pressure and there is no place for the primer. I am confused over where this is supposed to have taken place. In Nazi Germany? In the Warsaw ghetto? In Palestine? Where would people in such dire straits get lipstick cases, and if under oppression, wouldn't the authorities wonder who was making or wearing all that lipstick. It would be more credible if someone said that ammunition was smuggled in boxes marked "lipstick" or something like that. I have not yet been to the Holocaust Museum, but will check on that story when I have the chance. It sounds like something that started as a joke and was taken seriously. IMHO, any article that talks about "STEM" guns has very little credibility on firearms issues, and the History Channel has even less. (They once showed an AK-47 and an SKS in a story about Bonnie and Clyde.) Jim

February 20, 2010, 09:28 PM	#33
jonnyc Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2009 Location: PA Posts: 1,731	If you read my post above you will see that the "underground" factory using the lipstick cases was in Israel, called "Ayalon" near Rehovot, and was in use from approxomately 1945-49. How much use was made of lipstick cases I cannot say, but they did get some, and they did use them for some purposes.

February 21, 2010, 06:52 AM	#34
radom Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2000 Posts: 1,353	Probably some sort of cheep pre war tin "cycle gun" along the shades of the chrome U-Boot lugers.

February 21, 2010, 02:33 PM	#35
UpandAtIt Junior member Join Date: February 14, 2010 Posts: 233	Jim Keenan: 1st if what you say is true, then NO reloaders use other ammo to reform into wildcat or needed ammo by annealing and using forming dies. I personally have taken 30-06, .44, 444 Marlin and 7mm cases and made other ammo. They do need to be annealed though prior to doing so and this is usally done with a Bernzo-matic torch with the case heads in water. I have even formed my own copper jackets at home with just copper sheet stock and a hand hammered formed chisel die I made. Then I filled them with lead. If I could do it then damn near anyone with a lick of sense could do it. Some of those Jewish tool makers were very talented and intelligent folks when it comes to making things work. On this one Jim you are wrong and proven so via world history and documented proof. The fact the Germans and Arabs and whoever did not realize what was happening to the lipstick cases, it did go un-noticed. The History Channel story showed the one in Palestine (now Israel since 1948). The Holocost Museum shows underground shops in Euro, and Mideast. Just for giggles I looked at my moms lipstick cases she still has from the 30's and 40's. Of the 7 I checked, 5 were brass, 1 steel or tin and one was aluminum. I measured the wall thickness of the 5 brass ones and they ranged from .105 to just under .035. This is easily enough wall thickness for forming and reforming once annealed. NOT MELTED DOWN. No I did not try to form any bullets out of one, she would have whacked me with her walker. Bullet cases in my experience over years of reloading and shooting "Stretch" and need to be trimmed. Sometimes they do get brittle and torn when they are stretch too thin, but that is far and few between for such failures. Have you ever seen new ammo made at the factory? Guess what, they do it a cpl different ways. The way that is applicable here is how they take brass and/or copper billets & plates/discs and take them through a progressive die to form the case, head, neck. In the final forming they use a spinning process with a stylus to smooth out any imperfections. During this whole process the brass hardens (work hardening) and needs to be re-annealed at points for the next operation. It seems to me they work with some mighty thin case walls w/o tearing them. The primer pockets were usually done with a "Nail Header" Machine and then finished off with forming dies/punches. They, meaning the Jewish people reworked thousands of brass lipstick cases. Once annealed, brass will do just about anything you want. The Holocost Museum is a very interesting, sad and a glorius place to learn about the struggles of humans. The museum display shows the progressive forming that was done on the cases and have many examples on display. Feel free to contact them for the info on the who, what, when and where of the "Lipstick Case into Bullets" story. The Jewish people were not allowed to buy ammunition of any sort. They were allowed however to buy sundries and house hold goods. The museum states over 30,000 rounds were made from the bottom sections into rifle calibers and the lids were made into pistol calibers and the primers. History Channel only stated it was in the thousands. I find the History Channel fairly accurate on most subjects. I am sure if they showed a AK and SKS it was in relation to talking about gang violence and not just Bonnie & Clyde. Please feel free to tell R. Lee Ermy to his face he does not or History Channel does not know jack shyte about something LOL. Are there extremly small details wrong of left for the imagination in some History Channel shows, yes, most likely so. I am sure "STEM" was just a simple typo for STEN. Not all of us are perfect in their writing skills, I know I am not. Could have also meant that the cut down barrel STEMS were used to make other weapons. Note: I shall chat no more of this issue as it is slightly off subject. So let it be written, so let it be done...* waves hand accross the land to make it so.

February 21, 2010, 02:50 PM	#36
Chris_B Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2007 Posts: 3,101	What was that all about? You took some off-hand comments really personally

February 21, 2010, 03:05 PM	#37
hickstick_10 Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2009 Posts: 477	When anything is discussed on the net relating to the holocaust, there may be doubters on certain aspects, and then there are the very aggressive ones who seem to get very upset about any civil discussion. Reckon this thread will probably get worse

February 21, 2010, 05:23 PM	#39
hickstick_10 Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2009 Posts: 477	I'm not doubting just curious on something here. So rifle cartridges were made out of lip stick tubes, were they berdan primed, if so thats one hell of a forming job for a lipstick tube. Other question is, how did they form the head? I could see a lipstick case being made into an old style balloon head cartridge, but a balloon head rifle cartridge that handles a smokeless rifle load? That Im kinda skeptical on.

February 21, 2010, 09:53 PM	#41
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	OK, UpAndAtIt, if you can make cartridge cases out of those thin lipstick tubes, please do so, and post pictures. Then fire them and post pics. You are so unknowledgeable about what is required of a cartridge case in regard to containing pressure, that I tend to doubt your claimed expertise in reloading and case forming. (A bullet jacket is NOT the same thing as a cartridge case in terms of standing up to pressure.) Making one cartridge case out of another is one thing. Making a center fire cartridge case out of a thin piece of brass or aluminum is quite another. Why do you think cartridges have that thick part at the rear? Would they bother with that if they could just use thin brass all the way around? So, hurry up and make those cartridges out of your mom's discarded lipstick tubes and let us know how you get on. I am willing to eat crow if you do it, but I suspect you would be eating a lot of hot gas and burning powder first. Jim

February 21, 2010, 11:41 PM	#42
545days Junior Member Join Date: February 21, 2010 Location: TX Posts: 2	As I recall from the book "Oh Jerusalem", the Jews purchased a large quantity of cartridge casings which had been put through the first few steps of manufacture, yet were still unfinished. The unfinished casings were then labeled as "Lipstick cases" in order to smuggle them past the British who controlled the region, and had banned the importation of arms. Edit: I believe the partially produced casings were around step 5 as shown in the attached link about how cartridge brass is made http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com...brass-is-made/

February 22, 2010, 04:51 PM	#44
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Any company with experience in drawing metal can probably make cartridge cases, but the tooling and equipment needed for drawing cases is considerably different and requires a lot more force. Further, equipment is needed for head forming, primer pocket forming, flash hole punching, extractor groove cutting, shoulder and neck forming and annealing at various stages, none of which would be needed with a simple product like a lipstick case. The "smuggling" theory sounds more plausible, but why (or how) could they get partially formed cases through? It is hard to believe a customs agent would not recognize cartridge cases even if only partly formed. Jim

March 20, 2010, 09:25 AM	#46
mdemetz Member Join Date: September 23, 2009 Posts: 73	The articles I found say they were importing copper. The reason they gave for the import permits was to make Kosher Lipstick cases. http://www.travelpost.com/ME/Israel/...r/entry/151744

March 20, 2010, 06:23 PM	#47
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	Quite a show you guys are putting on. I just read it today. The part about the sheet metal barrel made from wrapping sheet metal around a mandrel is true. I own a .22 Hamilton rifle made in this way. Just an observation, I am not leaning one way or another.

March 22, 2010, 06:56 PM	#50
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	I am also doubtful of this story, but i would not say it is impossible. You have to remember Jews of every profession were interned. They also had a considerable amount of time to work on any such projects, although not like POWs. Could John Browning make a zip gun that killed 20 officers and fired rounds out of lipstick brass? I would bet he could have. In fact, I am going to make the claim that given two years where this was my only escape from dismal reality I could figure something out or at least have something blow up in my hand. This guy could have very easily been a very skilled artisan used to filing out intricate and precise clock works by hand. I like how people cited the history channel and Wikipedia to refute others claims. History channel is all about entertainment. I can find a historian that claims Daid Karesh was the second coming and if history channel thought it would get ratings they would distribute it as fact. Wikipedia is little better than a bathroom stall. If you are looking for a good time, call that number you might get lucky, but don't be surprised if you get an angry father of a 14 year old girl that picks up. Would love to see those pictures to see if this is a zip gun made after the war, something mass produced with a made up story, or maybe just as described accepting a little exaggeration(so maybe he only killed 20 soldiers or 1 soldier, who cares). Did the serial number match those tattooed on his wrist? Smuggling the cases through incomplete would not surprise me at all and seems VERY plausible. That customs agent is a bureaucrat. This is just like a flat. It isn't a "gun" so you can make/sell as you please.