LAR Grizzly Front Sight has Loosened--How To Fix

Bongo Boy · January 31, 2016, 10:19 PM

Front sight was wobbling all over the place while at the range today. Packed up and went home, and discovered just now those aren't socket head screws holding that thing down. So, I assume they used a mandrel and press to stake the two little bosses on the sight to hold it in place.

Have you had this problem and if so, how did you fix? This is a real puzzler--without resorting to goos or epoxies and without building a mandrel to reach up into the two recesses in the slide, I'm a little lost on how to fix this. Gotta wonder why they didn't use a traditional dovetail that's worked flawlessly for a couple of centuries now. I'm thinking of taking the slide to the local dude and doing the dovetail...but then of course I'd have to find a sight. Jeeeeez.

**44 AMP** · February 1, 2016, 02:09 AM

Hi Bongo! sorry to hear of your troubles.

You made me get mine out, and field strip it, dang it!...(I just couldn't remember without looking again..)

As to why they didn't use a dovetail in manufacture, I can only guess. Something must have made sense (cents??) at the time. It might have been as simple as the cost of machine time (cents).

Traditionally, 1911 / A1 front sights are staked in place. There is a single rectangular slot (hole) in the slide the tang of the sight is inserted, the slide inverted, and placed in a fixture to support it. Then the sight is staked using an special tool (an offset punch). This is how the Army did it, and how I did it when I was in the Army.

Looking at the Grizzly, I see TWO, DEEP holes. Two, likely to give a very secure mount when staked. I also note that the Grizzly slide seems to be noticeably thicker than the 1911 slide at that point, so the GI tool just won't work. Now that yours is loose, and since LAR is no longer in the pistol business, you are about SOL.

I say this because with the original sight, once it comes loose, there's no guarantee it won't do it again, even if properly restaked.

Right now, I'm thinking your cheapest solution might be JB Weld or Liquid Steel (carefully applied, it shouldn't even show...) but I cannot say how well, or how long (#of rounds) it will last. Might outlast the rest of the gun, might not. Just can't say, sorry.

Yes, this might be thought of as a Bubba solution, but if it's stupid and it works, its not stupid, right?

Getting a replacement front sight, and having a good machinist mill out a dovetail will not be cheap like JB Weld, but it is traditional "gunsmithy" work, AND allows you the ability to change the front sight at a future time, if needed.

Of course, if you do that, then it won't be "factory original" ever again, but I don't see that as a major financial loss considering likely collector interest during our lifetimes.

If you have a dovetail cut, be sure the replacement sight winds up the same height installed, as the original was. I know it goes without saying, but its surprising how often the obvious gets overlooked.

Good Luck, and let us know what/how the fix works.

rodfac · February 1, 2016, 08:55 AM

Good post, .44AMP. Rod

Bongo Boy · June 4, 2016, 11:12 PM

Well, the sight is still not repaired, but some time back I was able to remove it altogether by simply prying it off carefully. The sight blade itself has two short bosses that fit into the two holes in the slide, and they are both drilled out to form a shallow 'cup' in the end of each boss. The rim of this cup was then expanded when the sight is in place. The two holes in the slide each have a smaller diameter where they exit the top of the slide, and a larger diameter on the barrel side of the slide. So, there's a shoulder there that the two pins on the sight blade are expanded out into. How they managed that trick I'd love to see.

So...the way I'd fix this would be to press the sight blade back into position, then attempt to get a TiG probe into each hole for a quick zap. The holes are close enough to the end of the slide I think this could be done, even if you had to extend the tungsten way out. I think everything would be sufficiently flooded with gas, and you could get a 'spot' weld.

Anyway, I'd have no problem using JB Weld, but I see nothing to JB Weld to. Silver soldering would require way too much heat and would completely dork up the sight, and probably the slide too. I think the spot weld would be cheap, and if desired, one could just mill off the entire front sight to do the 'permanent' dove tail repair.

The other option I'm considering: tap the two front holes in the slide and fill them both with handsome flush screws, then remove the rear sight and mount a Fastfire of Cmore or something. Done nicely, the gun could still be restored to original factory, or close, save maybe a couple of non-standard tapped holes.

I miss shooting this thing so much I'm getting a bit desperate.

**44 AMP** · June 5, 2016, 12:13 AM

Quote:

there's a shoulder there that the two pins on the sight blade are expanded out into. How they managed that trick I'd love to see.

My guess would be with a hydraulic press and some special tools.

Quote:

Silver soldering would require way too much heat and would completely dork up the sight, and probably the slide too.

I have no personal experience with silver soldering, but I know it has been used to attach sights and other things on firearms for a long time. I'm pretty sure that, done right, it won't dork up anything, though I personally don't know how to "do it right". I would contact a recognized professional about it, not Bubba down the block, who "knows all about it"..

As I understand it, JB Weld, Liquid Steel and such products are essentially high strength "epoxies". I suggest a test with some steel scrap pieces to see how well it would work, or if it is even suitable. As a "glue" you need enough area to "grip" for the stress involved.

I would measure the height of the sight, and write it down somewhere you won't lose it. It's not impossible that however one reattaches the sight, it might come loose again, and if it flies off during recoil, it might be gone, so knowing the right height for a replacement wouldn't be a bad idea.

I would check into silver soldering it, but then I'm not a welder, and have no skill in that area.

Good Luck!

I'm going to move this to the Gunsmithing forum, in the hopes of some better informed folks being able to help.

Scorch · June 5, 2016, 01:13 AM

Your LAR Grizzly was modified to accept the Millett double crimped sight popular in the 80s and 90s. They are installed with a special set of Vise Grips with two studs on the jaws. The sights are no longer offered. You could silver solder it in place. Or your solution comes down to a dovetail slot milled right where the holes are, if possible. To do it right, the holes will need to be welded shut, the top of the slide smoothed out, then mill a dovetail and install the sight.

mete · June 5, 2016, 08:07 AM

The common term " silver solder " as common as it is is confusing. There is a SOLDER , of tin and about 5% silver , called silver solder and melts at about 450F. That's an acceptable term for it . What Bongo has used is actually a BRAZE .That melts at about 900F or more .
SILVER SOLDER would work for this as would JB Weld. Clean and degrease before doing the job.

Goatwhiskers · June 5, 2016, 08:42 AM

Brownells sells HiForce 44, melts at about 450, and HiTemp HiForce 44, melts at a little higher temp (I forget). Both are silver bearing solders and extremely strong. I've used them to attach sights, scope bases, and various other things, never had anything come loose. The low heat required will not damage blueing. GW

mete · June 5, 2016, 01:52 PM

Yes , that's one of them.
BTW , if you are going to solder stainless steel make sure you are using a flux that says " For Stainless Steel "

Bongo Boy · June 5, 2016, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Brownells sells HiForce 44, melts at about 450, and HiTemp HiForce 44, melts at a little higher temp

Okay, thanks! That's new to me...I didn't know anything existed that would melt at that low a temperature. That sounds like a very practical solution...although preventing a lot of bluing damage from the flux will be a real challenge.

This sounds like an excellent option...even though it's a LOT of steel to heat up. There's no way to do this with a real localized spot-heating...the mass involved is huge and to get a good wet solder is going to take some serious patience I think.

Goatwhiskers · June 6, 2016, 06:43 PM

Paint up to the edge of the area to be soldered with liquid paper, should prevent damage. Use a Q-tip to wipe flux only on the area to be soldered. I would tin the sight underneath and on the pins with hiforce 44, flux the slide and holes, line everything up and keep pressure on the sight while I warm the slide area with a small neutral flame. It won't take near as long as you think to liquify the solder and the sight will slide right in. 450 degrees ain't near as hot as you think. Done! GW

hope this helps, soldering is a learned art.

Should have mentioned that you will have to remove whatever finish is on the metal down to shiny or the solder won't stick. The secret to soldering is CLEAN metal.

mete · June 7, 2016, 06:59 PM

Don't squeeze it all out .highest strength joint is .003" which is also the best for capillary action to draw in the solder !

Bongo Boy · January 13, 2017, 11:54 PM

Okay kids, here's what I done.

I got me some of that there low temperature solder and the liquid flux, and cleaned up all the surfaced I wanted the solder to stick to using 400 grit paper and a LOT of patience. Assembled the sight, held it in place a piece of welding rod bent just right, and put in two drops of flux. Heated 'er up to just where the solder melted, and dropped in solder from the inside of the slide. Very 'iffy', in that the holes the sight goes into are shouldered, and I could only sand clean the portion of the holes closest to the upper 'outside' of the slide. The larger diameter, inside portion of the holes were not clean, and most definitely would not take to flux or solder.

I happended to use the Stay-Brite silver solder kit (from either Brownells or Midway, can't recall which).

After eveything was done and cleaned up, no damage at all to the bluing, and no solder sweating out from under the sight. So basically, I have to shoot it now to see how it holds. Looks good from here, though.

Bongo Boy · January 14, 2017, 09:11 PM

Well, I got 'er to the range today and blew about 90-100 rds downstream...and it's holding so far:

Thanks for the low temp solder idea--I didn't know solder was available with such a low melting point. I have no good way to know if this thing really sweated correctly or is a bad cold solder, but given 80% of the rounds I fired today were real pounders, I'm hopeful.

Interestingly, at least 3 shooters came over to my lane today, to hand me all of my brass they'd picked up and to ask "what's that cannon you've got there". Everyone seemed to truly enjoy watching someone else knock the snot out of themselves, and I think they enjoyed the muzzle flash, too. I was running No 9 and quite a bit of 300 MP, and there may have been a few loaded with 2400 as well. None had ever heard of the gun or the caliber, and found it quite the novelty.

Thanks again fellas...my life once again has meaning.

January 31, 2016, 10:19 PM	#1
Bongo Boy Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2008 Location: Colo Spgs CO Posts: 517	LAR Grizzly Front Sight has Loosened--How To Fix Front sight was wobbling all over the place while at the range today. Packed up and went home, and discovered just now those aren't socket head screws holding that thing down. So, I assume they used a mandrel and press to stake the two little bosses on the sight to hold it in place. Have you had this problem and if so, how did you fix? This is a real puzzler--without resorting to goos or epoxies and without building a mandrel to reach up into the two recesses in the slide, I'm a little lost on how to fix this. Gotta wonder why they didn't use a traditional dovetail that's worked flawlessly for a couple of centuries now. I'm thinking of taking the slide to the local dude and doing the dovetail...but then of course I'd have to find a sight. Jeeeeez. __________________ NRA Benefactor Member “If I had to live my life again, I'd make the same mistakes, only sooner.” T Bankhead "I think only the authorities should have weapons." The New American Electorate

February 1, 2016, 02:09 AM	#2
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,839	Hi Bongo! sorry to hear of your troubles. You made me get mine out, and field strip it, dang it!...(I just couldn't remember without looking again..) As to why they didn't use a dovetail in manufacture, I can only guess. Something must have made sense (cents??) at the time. It might have been as simple as the cost of machine time (cents). Traditionally, 1911 / A1 front sights are staked in place. There is a single rectangular slot (hole) in the slide the tang of the sight is inserted, the slide inverted, and placed in a fixture to support it. Then the sight is staked using an special tool (an offset punch). This is how the Army did it, and how I did it when I was in the Army. Looking at the Grizzly, I see TWO, DEEP holes. Two, likely to give a very secure mount when staked. I also note that the Grizzly slide seems to be noticeably thicker than the 1911 slide at that point, so the GI tool just won't work. Now that yours is loose, and since LAR is no longer in the pistol business, you are about SOL. I say this because with the original sight, once it comes loose, there's no guarantee it won't do it again, even if properly restaked. Right now, I'm thinking your cheapest solution might be JB Weld or Liquid Steel (carefully applied, it shouldn't even show...) but I cannot say how well, or how long (#of rounds) it will last. Might outlast the rest of the gun, might not. Just can't say, sorry. Yes, this might be thought of as a Bubba solution, but if it's stupid and it works, its not stupid, right? Getting a replacement front sight, and having a good machinist mill out a dovetail will not be cheap like JB Weld, but it is traditional "gunsmithy" work, AND allows you the ability to change the front sight at a future time, if needed. Of course, if you do that, then it won't be "factory original" ever again, but I don't see that as a major financial loss considering likely collector interest during our lifetimes. If you have a dovetail cut, be sure the replacement sight winds up the same height installed, as the original was. I know it goes without saying, but its surprising how often the obvious gets overlooked. Good Luck, and let us know what/how the fix works. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 1, 2016, 08:55 AM	#3
rodfac Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,624	Good post, .44AMP. Rod __________________ Cherish our flag, honor it, defend it in word and deed, or get the hell out. Our Bill of Rights has been paid for by heros in uniform and shall not be diluted by misguided governmental social experiments. We owe this to our children, anything less is cowardice. USAF FAC, 5th Spl Forces, Vietnam Vet '69-'73.

June 4, 2016, 11:12 PM	#4
Bongo Boy Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2008 Location: Colo Spgs CO Posts: 517	Well, the sight is still not repaired, but some time back I was able to remove it altogether by simply prying it off carefully. The sight blade itself has two short bosses that fit into the two holes in the slide, and they are both drilled out to form a shallow 'cup' in the end of each boss. The rim of this cup was then expanded when the sight is in place. The two holes in the slide each have a smaller diameter where they exit the top of the slide, and a larger diameter on the barrel side of the slide. So, there's a shoulder there that the two pins on the sight blade are expanded out into. How they managed that trick I'd love to see. So...the way I'd fix this would be to press the sight blade back into position, then attempt to get a TiG probe into each hole for a quick zap. The holes are close enough to the end of the slide I think this could be done, even if you had to extend the tungsten way out. I think everything would be sufficiently flooded with gas, and you could get a 'spot' weld. Anyway, I'd have no problem using JB Weld, but I see nothing to JB Weld to. Silver soldering would require way too much heat and would completely dork up the sight, and probably the slide too. I think the spot weld would be cheap, and if desired, one could just mill off the entire front sight to do the 'permanent' dove tail repair. The other option I'm considering: tap the two front holes in the slide and fill them both with handsome flush screws, then remove the rear sight and mount a Fastfire of Cmore or something. Done nicely, the gun could still be restored to original factory, or close, save maybe a couple of non-standard tapped holes. I miss shooting this thing so much I'm getting a bit desperate. __________________ NRA Benefactor Member “If I had to live my life again, I'd make the same mistakes, only sooner.” T Bankhead "I think only the authorities should have weapons." The New American Electorate Last edited by Bongo Boy; June 4, 2016 at 11:35 PM.

June 5, 2016, 01:13 AM	#6
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	Your LAR Grizzly was modified to accept the Millett double crimped sight popular in the 80s and 90s. They are installed with a special set of Vise Grips with two studs on the jaws. The sights are no longer offered. You could silver solder it in place. Or your solution comes down to a dovetail slot milled right where the holes are, if possible. To do it right, the holes will need to be welded shut, the top of the slide smoothed out, then mill a dovetail and install the sight. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

June 5, 2016, 08:07 AM	#7
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	The common term " silver solder " as common as it is is confusing. There is a SOLDER , of tin and about 5% silver , called silver solder and melts at about 450F. That's an acceptable term for it . What Bongo has used is actually a BRAZE .That melts at about 900F or more . SILVER SOLDER would work for this as would JB Weld. Clean and degrease before doing the job. __________________ And Watson , bring your revolver !

June 5, 2016, 08:42 AM	#8
Goatwhiskers Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2009 Location: Batchelor, La. Posts: 579	Brownells sells HiForce 44, melts at about 450, and HiTemp HiForce 44, melts at a little higher temp (I forget). Both are silver bearing solders and extremely strong. I've used them to attach sights, scope bases, and various other things, never had anything come loose. The low heat required will not damage blueing. GW

June 5, 2016, 01:52 PM	#9
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	Yes , that's one of them. BTW , if you are going to solder stainless steel make sure you are using a flux that says " For Stainless Steel " __________________ And Watson , bring your revolver !

June 6, 2016, 06:43 PM	#11
Goatwhiskers Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2009 Location: Batchelor, La. Posts: 579	Paint up to the edge of the area to be soldered with liquid paper, should prevent damage. Use a Q-tip to wipe flux only on the area to be soldered. I would tin the sight underneath and on the pins with hiforce 44, flux the slide and holes, line everything up and keep pressure on the sight while I warm the slide area with a small neutral flame. It won't take near as long as you think to liquify the solder and the sight will slide right in. 450 degrees ain't near as hot as you think. Done! GW hope this helps, soldering is a learned art. Should have mentioned that you will have to remove whatever finish is on the metal down to shiny or the solder won't stick. The secret to soldering is CLEAN metal. Last edited by Goatwhiskers; June 6, 2016 at 09:17 PM.

June 7, 2016, 06:59 PM	#12
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	Don't squeeze it all out .highest strength joint is .003" which is also the best for capillary action to draw in the solder ! __________________ And Watson , bring your revolver !

January 13, 2017, 11:54 PM	#13
Bongo Boy Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2008 Location: Colo Spgs CO Posts: 517	Okay kids, here's what I done. I got me some of that there low temperature solder and the liquid flux, and cleaned up all the surfaced I wanted the solder to stick to using 400 grit paper and a LOT of patience. Assembled the sight, held it in place a piece of welding rod bent just right, and put in two drops of flux. Heated 'er up to just where the solder melted, and dropped in solder from the inside of the slide. Very 'iffy', in that the holes the sight goes into are shouldered, and I could only sand clean the portion of the holes closest to the upper 'outside' of the slide. The larger diameter, inside portion of the holes were not clean, and most definitely would not take to flux or solder. I happended to use the Stay-Brite silver solder kit (from either Brownells or Midway, can't recall which). After eveything was done and cleaned up, no damage at all to the bluing, and no solder sweating out from under the sight. So basically, I have to shoot it now to see how it holds. Looks good from here, though. __________________ NRA Benefactor Member “If I had to live my life again, I'd make the same mistakes, only sooner.” T Bankhead "I think only the authorities should have weapons." The New American Electorate Last edited by Bongo Boy; January 14, 2017 at 09:18 PM.

January 14, 2017, 09:11 PM	#14
Bongo Boy Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2008 Location: Colo Spgs CO Posts: 517	Well, I got 'er to the range today and blew about 90-100 rds downstream...and it's holding so far: Thanks for the low temp solder idea--I didn't know solder was available with such a low melting point. I have no good way to know if this thing really sweated correctly or is a bad cold solder, but given 80% of the rounds I fired today were real pounders, I'm hopeful. Interestingly, at least 3 shooters came over to my lane today, to hand me all of my brass they'd picked up and to ask "what's that cannon you've got there". Everyone seemed to truly enjoy watching someone else knock the snot out of themselves, and I think they enjoyed the muzzle flash, too. I was running No 9 and quite a bit of 300 MP, and there may have been a few loaded with 2400 as well. None had ever heard of the gun or the caliber, and found it quite the novelty. Thanks again fellas...my life once again has meaning. __________________ NRA Benefactor Member “If I had to live my life again, I'd make the same mistakes, only sooner.” T Bankhead "I think only the authorities should have weapons." The New American Electorate