What to do: CHL holder taken hostage, SWAT comes in?

TXAZ · December 2, 2015, 09:45 PM

I'm watching the unfortunate events in San Bernardino, watching those (likely innocent) people who were hunkered down inside, coming out under police guard with their hands up.

It's clear the cops have to be careful, but if you have a CHL (I know that's not likely in LA), what's the best way to not get shot when they start searching the crowd?

Any officers out there with experience in this?

BigMikey76 · December 2, 2015, 10:16 PM

Keep your hands visible, and be forthcoming with information. Let them know you have a gun and the proper permit for carrying it BEFORE they find it. The idea is to let them be mentally prepared so they don't have a visceral negative reaction when they find it. Also, letting them know right away will hopefully head off any assumptions about why you were hiding a gun to begin with.

Some may say that it isn't anyone's business, as long as it is legal, but it is in your best interest to be open and straight with LEOs, even if you feel that you shouldn't have to. The nature of their job is such that they need to be suspicious of pretty much everyone, and they will usually assume guilt regardless, so do your best to not look like you are trying to hide something.

raimius · December 3, 2015, 12:09 AM

IF you have not drawn, calmly stating that you have a "legally carried firearm" would probably be prudent. I'd try to say that prior to or when they start searching people. That will likely be done in a "secure" environment, where the police feel they have relative control (e.g. not in the line of fire).

Personally, I'd avoid trying to show them the firearm (might be misinterpreted as you trying to draw down on them!) or saying something like "I have a gun" (misinterpreted as a threat).

There is always a chance that they might find the firearm while trying to hustle you out. In that case, you are probably going to get thrown to the ground and cuffed before you can say much. If they start to use physical force on you, it is likely wisest to just comply until you and they are in a state of mind to process a conversation.

doofus47 · December 3, 2015, 11:40 AM

I think that Mr. Ayoob's boiler plate method of announcement is:
"I am licensed and I am carrying."
First: notification that your are legal.
Second: notificatiaon that you have a hidden weapon.
No announcement using the word "gun." No squishy wording.

Then wait for instructions or ask how they want you to proceed.

In a San Bernadino type situation, expect them to take your weapon, at least for some amount of time. You will probably be restrained until all of the active shooters are accounted for.

DaleA · December 3, 2015, 01:15 PM

I'm surprised this type of question comes up so much.

Call me naïve but don't reach for anything or make any sudden movements and do what the cops tell you. I think you'd be fine.

T. O'Heir · December 3, 2015, 01:35 PM

The nature of their job is such that they will be scared and hyped up too.
"...calmly stating that you have a "legally carried firearm" would probably be prudent..." Yep. Operative word being 'calmly'. It's a highly unusual situation for them too and most cops are young guys with families.

Moonglum · December 3, 2015, 04:55 PM

My first thought is you will have some time to prepare before you leave the building.

I would come out hands up as directed with my permit in my hand and have it out in front of me before any cop got within 10 feet

raimius · December 4, 2015, 02:25 AM

I disagree. Open hands, in my opinion, are best.

How many classes have targets holding remotes, phones, IDs, beer bottles, etc...and nearly all of them will take a bullet from some student during the course!

oldmanFCSA · December 4, 2015, 03:47 AM

Hooking my cane handle in my pocket and keeping My Hands held high, open & empty, with palms facing forward.

Upon first contact with a LEO and within hearing distance, announce:

" Sir, I have a license for concealed carry."

" And I am legally carrying at this time"

" Sir, how do you wish to proceed ?"

" Sir, because of my disability, I have mobility issues. How can I help you to resolve this situation ?"

Hooking my cane handle in my pocket and keeping your hands in same position at all times !!!

This action should diffuse the situation as much as possible, puts the LEO in charge of the next move allowing him to proceed or announce to others for best method to proceed, and lets him/her know you are legally licensed and also willing to submit to best handle the situation.

Because of my disabilities, the last thing I want is to be tossed to the ground and hand-cuffed. I want the officer to know I will abide by his instructions. Because of my size, 6'8" and 380, I can understand their concern for restricting my movement for their safety, but that would severely hinder my mobility for use of my cane which they would probably confiscate, in addition to my firearm, due to concerns about it being used as a weapon (for which it works very well).

Rattlehead · December 6, 2015, 05:22 AM

"My first thought is you will have some time to prepare before you leave the building.

I would come out hands up as directed with my permit in my hand and have it out in front of me before any cop got within 10 feet"

IF (big IF) that's a viable option. If they can see me, I'm not reaching for ANYTHING. We can play the whole "let's see it" game when the need for documentation arises. Step one is verbally establishing expectations.

raimius · December 6, 2015, 11:14 PM

Most communication is non-verbal. The police are likely to develop an impression of you before they hear anything you say. Thus, appearing non-threatening and compliant are of high importance.

The more stuff you are touching/holding/waiving around, the more they have to interpret in a VERY short period of time.

...practice targets holding phones or similar objects in shooting houses get shot A LOT! I don't recommend holding anything, if you can reasonably avoid it.

December 2, 2015, 09:45 PM	#1
TXAZ Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2010 Location: McMurdo Sound Texas Posts: 4,322	What to do: CHL holder taken hostage, SWAT comes in? I'm watching the unfortunate events in San Bernardino, watching those (likely innocent) people who were hunkered down inside, coming out under police guard with their hands up. It's clear the cops have to be careful, but if you have a CHL (I know that's not likely in LA), what's the best way to not get shot when they start searching the crowd? Any officers out there with experience in this? __________________ Cave illos in guns et backhoes

December 2, 2015, 10:16 PM	#2
BigMikey76 Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2011 Location: Bellevue, NE Posts: 981	Keep your hands visible, and be forthcoming with information. Let them know you have a gun and the proper permit for carrying it BEFORE they find it. The idea is to let them be mentally prepared so they don't have a visceral negative reaction when they find it. Also, letting them know right away will hopefully head off any assumptions about why you were hiding a gun to begin with. Some may say that it isn't anyone's business, as long as it is legal, but it is in your best interest to be open and straight with LEOs, even if you feel that you shouldn't have to. The nature of their job is such that they need to be suspicious of pretty much everyone, and they will usually assume guilt regardless, so do your best to not look like you are trying to hide something. __________________ Some people are like Slinkies - not really good for anything, but you still can't help but smile when you see one tumble down the stairs.

December 3, 2015, 11:40 AM	#4
doofus47 Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2010 Location: live in a in a house when i'm not in a tent Posts: 2,483	I think that Mr. Ayoob's boiler plate method of announcement is: "I am licensed and I am carrying." First: notification that your are legal. Second: notificatiaon that you have a hidden weapon. No announcement using the word "gun." No squishy wording. Then wait for instructions or ask how they want you to proceed. In a San Bernadino type situation, expect them to take your weapon, at least for some amount of time. You will probably be restrained until all of the active shooters are accounted for. __________________ I'm right about the metric system 3/4 of the time.

December 3, 2015, 01:35 PM	#6
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	The nature of their job is such that they will be scared and hyped up too. "...calmly stating that you have a "legally carried firearm" would probably be prudent..." Yep. Operative word being 'calmly'. It's a highly unusual situation for them too and most cops are young guys with families. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

December 4, 2015, 03:47 AM	#9
oldmanFCSA Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2010 Location: WISCONSIN Posts: 283	Hooking my cane handle in my pocket and keeping My Hands held high, open & empty, with palms facing forward. Upon first contact with a LEO and within hearing distance, announce: " Sir, I have a license for concealed carry." " And I am legally carrying at this time" " Sir, how do you wish to proceed ?" " Sir, because of my disability, I have mobility issues. How can I help you to resolve this situation ?" Hooking my cane handle in my pocket and keeping your hands in same position at all times !!! This action should diffuse the situation as much as possible, puts the LEO in charge of the next move allowing him to proceed or announce to others for best method to proceed, and lets him/her know you are legally licensed and also willing to submit to best handle the situation. Because of my disabilities, the last thing I want is to be tossed to the ground and hand-cuffed. I want the officer to know I will abide by his instructions. Because of my size, 6'8" and 380, I can understand their concern for restricting my movement for their safety, but that would severely hinder my mobility for use of my cane which they would probably confiscate, in addition to my firearm, due to concerns about it being used as a weapon (for which it works very well). __________________ OldmanFCSA = "Oldman" at www.fcsa.org FCSA Member, SCSA Member, NRA Member, & AMA Member "Oldage & Treachery will overcome Youth & Skill"

December 3, 2015, 12:09 AM	#3
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	IF you have not drawn, calmly stating that you have a "legally carried firearm" would probably be prudent. I'd try to say that prior to or when they start searching people. That will likely be done in a "secure" environment, where the police feel they have relative control (e.g. not in the line of fire). Personally, I'd avoid trying to show them the firearm (might be misinterpreted as you trying to draw down on them!) or saying something like "I have a gun" (misinterpreted as a threat). There is always a chance that they might find the firearm while trying to hustle you out. In that case, you are probably going to get thrown to the ground and cuffed before you can say much. If they start to use physical force on you, it is likely wisest to just comply until you and they are in a state of mind to process a conversation.

December 3, 2015, 01:15 PM	#5
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,312	I'm surprised this type of question comes up so much. Call me naïve but don't reach for anything or make any sudden movements and do what the cops tell you. I think you'd be fine.

December 3, 2015, 04:55 PM	#7
Moonglum Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2015 Posts: 468	My first thought is you will have some time to prepare before you leave the building. I would come out hands up as directed with my permit in my hand and have it out in front of me before any cop got within 10 feet

December 4, 2015, 02:25 AM	#8
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	I disagree. Open hands, in my opinion, are best. How many classes have targets holding remotes, phones, IDs, beer bottles, etc...and nearly all of them will take a bullet from some student during the course!

December 6, 2015, 05:22 AM	#10
Rattlehead Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2009 Location: NC Posts: 244	"My first thought is you will have some time to prepare before you leave the building. I would come out hands up as directed with my permit in my hand and have it out in front of me before any cop got within 10 feet" IF (big IF) that's a viable option. If they can see me, I'm not reaching for ANYTHING. We can play the whole "let's see it" game when the need for documentation arises. Step one is verbally establishing expectations.

December 6, 2015, 11:14 PM	#11
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	Most communication is non-verbal. The police are likely to develop an impression of you before they hear anything you say. Thus, appearing non-threatening and compliant are of high importance. The more stuff you are touching/holding/waiving around, the more they have to interpret in a VERY short period of time. ...practice targets holding phones or similar objects in shooting houses get shot A LOT! I don't recommend holding anything, if you can reasonably avoid it.