Hobbyist Gunsmith

[Salmoneye]

I remember a fellow who applied for and was denied an FFL because he did not sell enough guns.

Sorry, but...

That makes no sense...

How could he 'sell' before he had an FFL?

Do you have a link to this?

[Herr Walther]

Of course it makes no sense. It's the Government.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by Salmoneye

...According to the linked statutes, that simply is not the case if you are not getting 'paid'...

I may be way off in my interpretation, and would be happy to be shown differently...

Correction: It might not be the case.

Whether or not it will be the case will depend on (1) how courts have interpreted and/or applied similar statutory language; and (2) the totality of the circumstances.

So you might be way off in your interpretation, or you might not be. To have a better idea of which it is, one will need to review any relevant case law and consider the exact circumstances. I'm going to do neither because I have no personal stake in the answers.

But it's your freedom and future at stake, so you might want to do a little more research, or consult with and pay a lawyer to do it for you.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Salmoneye

Sorry, but...

That makes no sense...

How could he 'sell' before he had an FFL?

You didn't quote the entire message. It said he sold four guns at a gun show. Remember that "gun show loophole" the antis are always whining about?

There ya go.

[Salmoneye]

You didn't quote the entire message. It said he sold four guns at a gun show. Remember that "gun show loophole" the antis are always whining about?

Nope...Sorry...Still makes no sense...

It states he was denied because he did not sell enough guns, and then was arrested for selling guns...

Getting an FFL is not based on 'current volume of sales'...

There is obviously more to the story, if in fact it is more than anecdotal...

[Salmoneye]

Correction: It might not be the case.

Whether or not it will be the case will depend on (1) how courts have interpreted and/or applied similar statutory language; and (2) the totality of the circumstances.

So you might be way off in your interpretation, or you might not be. To have a better idea of which it is, one will need to review any relevant case law and consider the exact circumstances. I'm going to do neither because I have no personal stake in the answers.

But it's your freedom and future at stake, so you might want to do a little more research, or consult with and pay a lawyer to do it for you.

Not my thread, and not my question...I agree, that in other people's scenarios in this thread, that It indeed "might not be the case"...

My question was simply about me being able to clean a gun left to my Sister by our late Father, and certainly for no 'consideration' in any form whatsoever...

It was stated that someone would need an FFL in that instance if the gun was kept overnight, which according to all relevant posts and links, is just not true...

[ltc444]

Salmoneye

It is an actual case which was reported in the American Rifleman in the Mid 70s.

Fortunately, the Judge agreed with you and threw the case out and ripped into the Prosecutor and the ATF.

As my lawyer once said. Cops lie and the ATF has a history of lying. If an agent decides that he/she needs to make a case they may fabricate a case. Someone who, as a hobby, works on guns would be a good target.

It is an area were legal definitions come into play. Not a lot of case law. The suspect is probably a nice guy and naive about the law. Perfect target when you have an administration and management which is totally hostile to the 5th Admendment.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Salmoneye

Nope...Sorry...Still makes no sense...

It states he was denied because he did not sell enough guns, and then was arrested for selling guns...

Getting an FFL is not based on 'current volume of sales'...

There is obviously more to the story, if in fact it is more than anecdotal...

Of course it isn't based on "current" volume, because to have a current volume one would have to be illegally in the business. But getting an FFL IS based on the expectation of being seriously in the business. There are far fewer FFLs today than there were five or ten years ago. The BATFE has been almost ruthlessly eliminating "kitchen table" FFLs -- guys who have a safe in the basement and who sell out of their residence. There were such people -- I actually bought an Italian SAA clone from such a person some years ago, and we sat down at his kitchen table to fill out the paperwork.

The FFL now wants dealers to have a real store, and real business hours. It used to be that the requirement for posted business hours was enforced loosely -- if your hours were Sunday evening from 6:30 to 8:30, that would fly as long as you were there and open for business every Sunday evening. That won't cut it any more.

So most likely the subject of this "anecdote" couldn't satisfy the BATFE that he was going to running a real business, as opposed to being a "kitchen table" FFL. So they didn't give him an FFL. Then he sold four guns at a show and they nailed him for being "in business" without an FFL.

I have no problem accepting that this probably happened ... but I've dealt with Feds before so I know how they think.

[Brian Pfleuger]

I wouldn't be real concerned about a single case that happened 40 years ago and makes no sense under current regulations/conditions. FFLs are not issued based on volume. You don't need ANY volume. How would you, in fact, be denied an FFL for lack of volume when it is illegal to have any volume without first having the FFL?

[Fishing_Cabin]

Originally Posted by Salmoneye

My question was simply about me being able to clean a gun left to my Sister by our late Father, and certainly for no 'consideration' in any form whatsoever...

It was stated that someone would need an FFL in that instance if the gun was kept overnight, which according to all relevant posts and links, is just not true...

Salmoneye,

This thread, at least in my view of it, is about the "grey area" that people tend to run afoul of, and are confused by with the ATF with in some ways. There is no minimum or maximum required for an FFL, even for gunsmithing. It is all based on the interpretaion of the inspector you are working with. This grey area is where many disagreements start when people discuss getting an FFL, or if a FFL is required.

In your case, cleaning your sisters firearm, say once or twice a year, I would not see a huge problem.

In the case of the OP in this thread, it would be advisable, at least in my opinion, for him to have an FFL. Talking about doing work for family AND friends, sounds like more of a regular thing, and would be more likely to catch the eye of the ATF if they are looking for something.

[Salmoneye]

In your case, cleaning your sisters firearm, say once or twice a year, I would not see a huge problem.

I'll go one further and flatly state after reviewing the regs, that there is no "problem" whatsoever in my case, let alone a huge one...

In the case of the OP in this thread, it would be advisable, at least in my opinion, for him to have an FFL. Talking about doing work for family AND friends, sounds like more of a regular thing, and would be more likely to catch the eye of the ATF if they are looking for something.

This I fully agree with...

As I stated, my questions all stem from the 'overnight' possession of someone else's gun...

Maybe being from Vermont I am naive, but I have lent guns to people, and had them lend me theirs...

Never till this thread had I seen anyone suggest that there is anything remotely 'untoward' about such actions as possessing someone else's firearm 'overnight' for any purpose...

I do appreciate the thread, and thanks for the replies...

[Fishing_Cabin]

Im glad that has helped you some. I try my best to not speak in "absolute" or "concrete" terms when discussing the ATF regs. Why? While the ATF regs/faqs/etc may say one thing, they are always open to interpretation by the local inspectors, so be cautious if you look in to doing anything more in the future.

Originally Posted by Salmoneye

Never till this thread had I seen anyone suggest that there is anything remotely 'untoward' about such actions as possessing someone else's firearm 'overnight' for any purpose...

Lending a firearm to a resident of one state is generally legal as far as I know, as long as state and local laws do not prevent it, and the person is not prohibited.

The difference between that and this thread, is by doing a repair, or "other work" on a firearm, it may require an FFL depending on the extent of what is going on.

Again, in your case I dont see any red flags so to speak. Just cleaning your sisters firearm once in a blue moon shouldnt be a problem.

It would be different if the ATF had a complaint and stopped by when you had, say 5 firearms belonging to others for repair or "other work" over night, and you did not have an FFL. Even if you were saying you are not being paid, the ATF "may" not like this and give a problem.

I hope yourself and others see the difference.

[Salmoneye]

I do indeed see the difference...

[dogtown tom]

Here we go again........

Aguila Blanca ....

But getting an FFL IS based on the expectation of being seriously in the business.

An 01FFL is for someone who intends to engage in the business of dealing in firearms. How "serious" they are is not a requirement. There is no minimum number of firearms that must be bought/sold/traded/transferred/etc....BUT...the licensee MUST be engaged in the business and not using his 01FFL solely for enhancing his personal collection.

There are far fewer FFLs today than there were five or ten years ago. The BATFE has been almost ruthlessly eliminating "kitchen table" FFLs -- guys who have a safe in the basement and who sell out of their residence.

ATF has no problem with home based or "kitchen table" dealers....I'm one and there are THOUSANDS of others....kitchen table FFL's outnumber retail storefront FFL's.

This is an often repeated myth that ATF is on a purge of kitchen table dealers. If you would do a bit of research you would discover that the great majority of former licensees were ineligible to even apply for an FFL....they either lied on their application that they were not obtaining the FFL for personal use, were not able to operate a business from their home due to zoning, failed to obtain required sales tax permits or other requirements to obtain or renew their FFL. When given the opportunity to get legal many chose to let their license lapse rather than obtain sales tax permits or find a location where zoning permitted business operations.

There were such people -- I actually bought an Italian SAA clone from such a person some years ago, and we sat down at his kitchen table to fill out the paperwork.

Yep, I do this nearly every day.

The FFL now wants dealers to have a real store, and real business hours. It used to be that the requirement for posted business hours was enforced loosely -- if your hours were Sunday evening from 6:30 to 8:30, that would fly as long as you were there and open for business every Sunday evening. That won't cut it any more.

You keep posting absolute nonsense.
There is no such requirement under Federal law, nor is there any ATF regulation that requires a 'real store" and "posted business hours".....ATF & Federal law do require that the applicant have a "licensed premises"....which can be a storefront, a residence, or a cardboard box in your backyard. As long as the applicant can legally operate a business from the licensed premises he will be approved.

The ATF application requires the applicant to list "business hours" or the hours he intends to devote time and attention to his business.....there is no requirement that the licensee be open to the public or have public "business hours". Many home based FFL's never have a wwalk in customer....doing business strictly via internet sales.

So most likely the subject of this "anecdote" couldn't satisfy the BATFE that he was going to running a real business, as opposed to being a "kitchen table" FFL. So they didn't give him an FFL.

Quite likely nothing of the sort as "kitchen table" FFLs are running a real business.

As often as the "no kitchen table FFL's" myth has been debunked just here on TFL, its amazing it keeps getting repeated.

[Salty1]

I fully agree with the above post, the only thing I will add is that when we were interviewed for our FFL we were ask if we would be "activly engaged" in the firearms business. Activly engaged is open for interpretation, if one is only selling or transfering 10 guns a year I would question if that is considered activly engaged but according to the written requirements I see nothing that mentions any specific quota. Our business is run from our house and is by appointment, most of the time people call and just come over, I do not want any walk in's and we do not advertise at all, word of mouth is ones best advertising.....

[vranasaurus]

27 CFR 478.11

Gunsmith. A person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such a term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;

That is the definition of gunsmith under the CFR.

[Pvt. Pyle]

The hours listed on the FFL app for "business hours" is mostly so the ATF has a time to show up for an audit. From how I understand it anyway. I have been trying to do some research and get ducks in a row before I go jumping into something like this.

I love the kitchen table, need inventory, safe deals that everyone always spits out about things you have to do for an FFL.

Also to the previously stated denial of an FFL, I am assuming that something went down and this person was already an FFL holder and did something, or didnt do something, that fulfilled requirements and they denied a renewal. Just assuming...