Can't just blast away!!!!!!

[USMCGrunt]

So what happens when you find out the kidnapping suspect or rape victim you just helped is actually Cindy Sheehan?:barf: "Oops, my mistake guys, you can go ahead and keep this one. I didn't see anything."

[mattro]

fs2k: Are you saying if you weren't armed at that moment you wouldn't help?

Without a gun, I would be very reluctant to try and stop the crime in progress. I would use my cell phone and trail in my vehicle to help, but knowing they are most likely armed, I would not interfere if I was not carrying. This is why I try to carry most of the time.

fs2k: In the case of a CCW gun, the handgun in question is NOT intended to be an offensive weapon, it is a defensive tool.

WRONG - by pulling this weapon to intervene in a felony (in defense of the girl), it could quickly become an offenseive weapon. you're going on the offense to defend someone.

You want to be a Hero, but only at the least amount of risk to yourself and only if the odds were stacked in your favor.

When someone says they will do something, you guys call it 'hero' or 'john wayne'. I called the lack of action 'cowardess'. My goal would be to stop a crime, being a hero is nowhere on my top priorities. I dont put my gun on everyday thinking maybe today I can be a hero. I put it on thinking, maybe today this gun will give me the odds to reverse the desires of some puke to prey on innocent people (or me).

You are 100% right about the risk and the odds. duh.

You are outside of the law.

No i'm not

You could face jail time just for having it in your possesion, never mind if you had to actually use it.

no I can't.

By the way, I would equally assist if it were being perpetrated against a old frail women, a young gay man, or a chinease exchange student (the options you gave). The 300# guy should be able to help himself, but if he can't, I guess I would.

I wouldn't draw before establishing a DEFINATE threat in a situation like that, not for the Hot Hollywood actress, the girl in the vid, or anyone else I didn't know personally for that matter. For me it's an issue of self dicipline and control.

My self discipline and control would have my weapon out immediately when I cath 2 bg in the middle of a violent felony.

[ATW525]

Are you saying if you weren't armed at that moment you wouldn't help?

If I wasn't armed, I would choose a different avenue to help, rather than direct confrontation. At the minimum I would call 911, get the license plate number, the direction of travel and be a good witness.

You want to be a Hero, but only at the least amount of risk to yourself and only if the odds were stacked in your favor.

I don't know about this "hero" stuff, but yes, I think most sane and reasonable people would want to stack the odds in their favor. Intervening in a potential deadly force situation is dangerous enough and somebody who takes unnecessary risks while doing so is just plain foolish. It smacks of somebody with too much machismo for their own good. I'm not superman, I don't play him on TV and I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

[mattro]

I have often said that firearms, handguns in particular are mere tools. They are not sources of power nor are they instruments to carry out moral actions..

A gun is not a source of power ???? It's not an instrument to carry out something moral?? Last time I checked, the gun is a souce of tremendous power, to either the good guy, or the bg. If the gun lets me defend someone else (I belive to be a moral act), then it is an instrument to carry out a moral act.

Are you people afraid to approach a situation like that on your own unarmed?

yes. - what are you some kind of hero, or a john wayne?

It doesn't take a pshchologist to see that people like mattro rely on their guns as a source of reinforced security. I'm speaking metally, not physically.

more words of wisdom from a guy with 1500 posts. you're right!! the gun does give me a metnal sense of security when trying to stop a kidnapping or any other violent crime. If I enter condition yellow or red withOUT a gun, I feel mentally insecure.

Do most people go through the trouble of ccw becasue the gun offers NO sense of mental security???

Man you're good.

The incident at K-Mart with these kids didn't involve firearms or a citizen approaching these people with a drawn weapon or anything like that.

If it wasn't a hoax do you think it would have went this easily?

So, if you truly choose to approach every situation the same way, that is, weapon drawn and such I'm not here to criticize that

Who said anything about handling all situations the same, and drawing a weapon everytime??? I don't in any of our replies that being said????

[john_galt]

I don't care where I am or who I am with or what time of day it is or who is around or what the weather is....If I see someone get attacked from behind, their face covered with a sack, grabbed up, slung over someones shoulder
and the guys sprint away through a parking lot, as if to make it LOOK like a kidnapping, you will be confronted by me and my gun. That's the video, that's the scenario, that's how I'd react. Joke, not a joke, hidden camera show, whatever.

w/o a gun I would hesitate and formulate a plan to gain the advantage I did not have while gunless (get some help, call 911, push shopping carts into their shins).

If I walk into a bank and pretend I want to rob it, can any of you (fs2k) tell me whether it matters that IT WAS NOT A BANK ROBBERY? I might not get the same amount of time in jail but a conviction of some kind is a certainty.

People get killed in joke/pretend situations by cops, and I would imagine by civilians. Cops shoot people all the time because it LOOKED like the guy had a gun. Not all die and that's great. Hopefully it teaches them a lesson to not draw down on cops using a hair brush.

[Creature]

USMCGrunt wrote:
So what happens when you find out the kidnapping suspect or rape victim you just helped is actually Cindy Sheehan? "Oops, my mistake guys, you can go ahead and keep this one. I didn't see anything."

Seriously...what did that add to this conversation? Cindy Sheehan has a constitutional right to say whatever she wants to say.

I dont agree with her, but I would never wish anything bad on her. Shame on you. Comments like that do nothing for this forum.

[yomama]

Some in this post have pointed at laws, and court recourse. I demand laws around this issue protecting the law abiding citizen. I don't care who is in office (hoping a republican), but if they are not pro-gun rights I want them out now.

[gvf]

"I demand laws around this issue protecting the law abiding citizen."


We have laws to protect the law-abiding citizens - including stupid citizens who play dumb games but don't need to be killed for it.

We are allowed permits for SELF-protection. The rest is the job for cops, save only one: a violent felony that will result in the immiment death or serious energy of a victim - then a citizen can intervene.

If you want to stop crime become a cop.

[USMCGrunt]

Wow, so you would be willing to risk your freedom, your right to ever have a firearm again, not to mention your financial well being for both you and your family to defend the likes of Sheehan, Hillery, Rosie, Fienstein, et all? Ever think of what happens if the bad guy survives it and files a lawsuit or a fruity DA files charges against this "vigilante with a gun"? What happens to you and your family and for what, so these hipppie liberals can go on about their merry way? To be honest, if I seen Rosie O'donnel getting a bag tossed over her head in a Kame-apart parking lot, well, I don't recall ever having seen it happen and go about my business.
I'd hope you arent' so nieve to know that there are lawyers out there that will take away your financial independence on behalf of the "vicitm of society" you shot as well as prosecuters out there that will do everything in their power to take a "dangerous vigilante" off the streets. Calling 911 and providing details to the cops is as far as I'm going to go for strangers. Family is a different matter but that's not the debate here.

[ATW525]

Wow, so you would be willing to risk your freedom, your right to ever have a firearm again, not to mention your financial well being for both you and your family to defend the likes of Sheehan, Hillery, Rosie, Fienstein, et all? Ever think of what happens if the bad guy survives it and files a lawsuit or a fruity DA files charges against this "vigilante with a gun"? What happens to you and your family and for what, so these hipppie liberals can go on about their merry way? To be honest, if I seen Rosie O'donnel getting a bag tossed over her head in a Kame-apart parking lot, well, I don't recall ever having seen it happen and go about my business.

You're either willing to intervene on behave of a third party or you're not. To suggest looking the other way and pretending that you didn't even see anything while somebody is being kidnapped, raped or assaulted because you recognize they're of a different political leaning than yourself is not just utterly wrong... it's blatantly offensive. I believe that such an action can only be called morally bankrupt and an embarassment to responsible gun ownership.

[mattro]

USMCgrunt: Wow, so you would be willing to risk your freedom, your right to ever have a firearm again, not to mention your financial well being for both you and your family

I have seen very VERY few charges brought on a law abiding citizen defending an innocent person against a blatanly evil person under perilous circumstances. Especially in Indiana. Never seen any in Indiana news.

I think the risk of loosing all that stuff is extremely small if I follow the rules of when deadly force is appropriate, and I act with a cool reasonable head. Escpecially in Indiana. New York and other socialist states is a different story...

[gvf]

Why don't the screamers here read the posts, mine for one, the law is clear that you can intervene under certain circumstances. However, the situation that was described at the start of the thread, doesn't come close. Why? It was not a violent felony imminently about to result in the death or ser. injury of a victim. It was a joke.
You're sorry it didn't result in the death of these people?

The law worked fine in this case.

[obxned]

How could you live with yourself if you stood there while that girl was being kidnapped and you did nothing???

The video tape shows a kidnapping, not a prank. Whether it is legal to act is irrelevant to me. It is morally required! If I were to be caught in such a no-win situation, I would hope to do the moral thing, and if that conflicts with that which is legal, I would take the consequences.

[gvf]

You're ignoring reality - it wasn't but a joke. And no one shot them. WHAT is the problem?

Were you there? Did people in the store see the video while this was transpiring?

Did they see the event live? If so, did it read "live" as more obviously not the real thing?

If it was seen while happening, could you done less than shoot to get authorities within time to find out what was happening? Did people, in fact do that ?

You weren't there were you? you don't know the answers to those questions do you, but you still think it was OK to have shot them? Even knowing that innocents would have been killed and no crime involved? That's OK, so long as "I am right", huh?

And you're talking about ethics?

Well here's the deal: with that kind of approach, many more innocent people would get killed by innumerable others - who are "RIGHT" - running around shooting with no crime taking place, than the few who might not - (and of which there are either close to no documented cases or none at all: that is, of a CCW who would have prevented a serious and violent crime and could have - but didn't - act).

So, in this case you shouldn't have acted with lethal means, because there was no crime. And generally you're inventing something that doesn't exist: a need to have CCWs shoot in crime situations that do not involve them.

And you're nonetheless attacking all who make it legally consequential for you to shoot is such situations.

Inventing villains to scream about.

[Creature]

Wow, so you would be willing to risk your freedom, your right to ever have a firearm again, not to mention your financial well being for both you and your family to defend the likes of Sheehan, Hillery, Rosie, Fienstein, et all? Ever think of what happens if the bad guy survives it and files a lawsuit or a fruity DA files charges against this "vigilante with a gun"? What happens to you and your family and for what, so these hipppie liberals can go on about their merry way? To be honest, if I seen Rosie O'donnel getting a bag tossed over her head in a Kame-apart parking lot, well, I don't recall ever having seen it happen and go about my business.
I'd hope you arent' so nieve to know that there are lawyers out there that will take away your financial independence on behalf of the "vicitm of society" you shot as well as prosecuters out there that will do everything in their power to take a "dangerous vigilante" off the streets. Calling 911 and providing details to the cops is as far as I'm going to go for strangers. Family is a different matter but that's not the debate here.

My decision process to intervene in the commission of a kidnapping happening right in front me and why I should or should not and is not based upon a fear of a lawyer who might be "out to get me". It is about the moral issue of right and wrong. NOONE deserves to be murdered, kidnapped, or raped.

Anyone with a willingness to standby and watch a person who doesn't necessarily align to their personal political leanings to be kidnapped, raped, and/or murdered...and to do nothing about it, is quite frankly, cowardly and shows a callous disregard for human life.

Whatever legal ramifications that may come afterwards is nothing compared to the personal torment that I personally am not willing to endure for doing nothing in a situation like this. I actually trust the jury of my peers to make the right decision. I would never be able to look at myself in the mirror again knowing that I did nothing for that person being kidnapped...even Ms. O'Donnel.

[dralarms]

Anyone with a willingness to standby and watch a person who doesn't necessarily align to their personal political leanings to be kidnapped, raped, and/or murdered and to do nothing about it, is quite frankly, cowardly and shows a callous disregard for human life.

Whatever legal ramifications that may come afterwards is nothing compared to the personal torment that I am not willing to endure for doing nothing in a situation like this. I actually trust the jury of my peers to make the right decision. I would never be able to look at myself in the mirror again knowing that I did nothing for that person being kidnapped...even Ms. O'Donnel.

Very well communicated. I have to agree with everything you said, and can you imagine the headline "gun nut saves Rosie from kidnappers" I wonder how she would like eating crow?

[gvf]

Sounds nice, noble.... So, who was it that was kidnapped that you're talking about?

[dralarms]

Some stupid kids staged a kidnapping at a k mart.

[markj]

Corrrect response:

when witnessing a person being kidnapped, shoot that person, the kidnappers will then leave empty handed.

Seriously, I do not belive CCW was intended for folks to go round doing vigilante work. Rather I belive it is as a last defense for your own person. CCW class doesnt have any training for you to go after one that has comitted a crime or to attempt to intervene in any way. You do not have the training for that and the one in trouble may suffer from your actions.

Plate number, car make color, maybe follow with cell phone coverage to LEO.

In Council Bluffs recently a guy CCWing came upon 2 guys threating a guy with knives so CCW guy pulls weapon 2 BGs run off, CCW guy is commended for saving guy. I belive this is how most will play out unless someone gets shot. Then it is open season on who ever shot. Be careful.

[mattro]

markj, according to your beliefs that guy in Council Bluffs should not have intervened. He did not have the training, and no ccw instructors advocate that type of action?

It is sad that if it had been you that came up on that crime in progress, you would have done nothing while they murdered the guy (very possible outcome), but at least you would have been a good witness, you could have given the surviving family detail of every knife wound - according to your own words.

or to attempt to intervene in any way.

You can't have it both ways...

People on this board call people like me "Trying to be a hero", what do they call people that sit back and watch a crime because it is not there place?

[Creature]

Well, that's easy...and you answered it yourself: they call themselves a good witness.

Seriously, I do not belive CCW was intended for folks to go round doing vigilante work.

Since when is intervening in a major life-threatening crime being a vigilante? If someone is being kidnapped right in front of you I guess you must wait until they actually cry for help.

[mattro]

remember the guy at the end of the bar watching the fat off duty cop beat the female bartender repeatedly?

I would assume that guy did not feel it was his place to intervene. I would assume that guy did not feel he had the proper training.

Did that guy assume if he got involved, the women would be in more danger? Did he assume that no self defense instructor would advocate breaking up a fight wear a guy is beating a women senseless?

If he did, does that make his action right?

I would hate to be that guy and live with the fact that I sat there and watched a women get beat, AND DID NOTHING...:barf:

My parents, wife, kids and friends would be real proud, not to mention the victim.

[FM12]

John galt: well said. If something like this happed for REAL to one of my daughters and no one with the means tried to intervene, I would rain hate & discontent on them later.

Liability be d___, this is NOT a mugging, a simple assault, or a purse snatching. This is a crime of violence (even thought staged) until proven otherwise. The time for action is then, not after the escape with the victim has been made.

God help us all if most are going to stand around while this happens.

You just really dont want to know what else I'm thinking. Kitty Genovese (preciously mentioned) is the perfect example of what happens when responsible people do nothing. Ask her family what they think about non-involvement.

Understanding that i risk barring from the forum: I could just puke!

[mattro]

We have a new term "bystander effect".

The circumstances of her murder and the apparent reaction (or lack thereof) of her neighbors were reported by a newspaper article published two weeks later and prompted investigation into the psychological phenomenon that became known as the bystander effect or "Genovese syndrome."[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitty_Genovese

[Thunderhawk88]

Kitty Genovese (preciously mentioned) is the perfect example of what happens when responsible people do nothing.

I am all for my family's safety comes first, BUT if the good guys all stand around doing nothing and repeating the mantra "me and mine only" then the bad guys have won!