Taught my son a lesson in awareness & safety yesterday

[threegun]

Hemicuda, Don't own a Rolex......yet. I don't like to wear watches. Rolex's are big and heavy. I have pondered the thought of getting one but Gold is too high right now. I'll wait until that presidential comes in for 6 thousand or so. I need to wear a watch just annoys the heck out of my wrist.

Or do you wear them to bed too?

Never take it off. Its a big cuban link chain so it doesn't catch hair.

there is a time and place for everything, and fishing and bling really AREN'T related...

I know I know.........I'm still waiting for you guys to give me a certified list of appropriate times and locations to wear my "bling" LOL. Really though I don't even think about the chain since it stays on all the time. Sometimes I will put it inside my shirt as I would have done in this instance if not for my tank top.

[threegun]

David,

So the question becomes why attract bad guys if you don’t really need to?

Don't know? In your life pick something you do that attracts bad guys or increases your danger level unnecessarily and ask yourself the same question. I do understand your point though. I believe that I posted I would have hidden my chain in my shirt if not for the tank I was wearing.

I just prefer to stay in good areas to begin with. Thinking that you are safe by leaving your gold at home is not smart. I don't know Nuevo Lurado but if is a bad area I'll just stay out in the first place.

People like to criticize yet they are the first one walking out of a bar at 1am. Everybody does something that may increase their odds of being targeted. My chink is the chain whats yours?

[David Armstrong]

In your life pick something you do that attracts bad guys or increases your danger level unnecessarily and ask yourself the same question.

The key is “unnecessarily.” To the best of my knowledge I do not do anything to unnecessarily increase my danger level or attract bad guys. Sometimes it is necessary to do that, but I make an effort to reduce the chances. To me, that is the point of this discussion. I’ve got the nice gold neck chain (Russian gold, BTW) and matching bracelet. I’ve got the Rolex watch. I’ve got the real $5 gold eagle cufflinks. But they usually sit in the safe instead of being worn every day. I don’t feel the need to impress anybody in my usual daily activities and dress, and thus I reduce my attractiveness as a target for hostile activities.

People like to criticize yet they are the first one walking out of a bar at 1am. Everybody does something that may increase their odds of being targeted. My chink is the chain whats yours?

Well, if I go to the bar (rarely) I tend to leave early and I have a 2-drink limit. And if I do anything that unnecessarily increases my odds of being targeted I’m not aware of it. If I were aware of it I would change it.

[threegun]

David, Believe it or not we agree. I assume the added risk. I try to hide it on those very rare occassions that I am in a bad area.

Let me ask though do you wear a wedding ring? What kind of car do you drive? How do you dress? Do you stay out into the wee hours of the night for fun?

BTW, Going to the bar increases your odds all by itself.

I tournament bass fish and find myself up and out of the house many times at 3am. That increases my chances. The chain increases my chances. Aside that I am a family man, no bars or partying of any kind. I promise that my trips into the hood with or without my chain are very rare the last being accidental.

When do you wear your Rolex and other jewelry? Why have it and not use it?

[David Armstrong]

David, Believe it or not we agree. I assume the added risk.

I'm not sure we do. I would not add the risk unless necessary. There is absolutely no gain, and lots of potential cost.

Let me ask though do you wear a wedding ring? What kind of car do you drive? How do you dress? Do you stay out into the wee hours of the night for fun?

In order: Not ordinarily. /Depends on what is going on, but usually it is an older Ford ranger pickup; Long trips or more formal events usually get the new Crown Victoria; Fun and game weekend runs through the countryside belong to the Jag convertible. /I dress conservatively, usually chinos or jeans and a polo shirt. /No, I stay out when necessary, but not for fun.

BTW, Going to the bar increases your odds all by itself.

True, but it can increase them minimally when done correctly. Good part of town, better class bar and patrons, etc.

I tournament bass fish and find myself up and out of the house many times at 3am. That increases my chances. The chain increases my chances.

OK, tournament fishing REQUIRES the early up and at them process. It is necessary. The chain is not necessary. In fact, it could be argued that the chain increases your chances of not being able to fish. That is my position. I'm not saying never do anything, never enjoy things. I'm suggesting, as are all these other folks, that attracting bad guys when you don't need to is not a good policy.

When do you wear your Rolex and other jewelry? Why have it and not use it?

I wear it when appropriate and reasonable safe to do so. It is no different than having money in the bank. I take some out when I need it. I don't take it all out and then walk around with it all the time.

[threegun]

David, We agree in that Jewelry in general attracts the bad guy.

If you go back and read my posts I rarely go into bad areas. When I do find myself in this situation I leave asap. So my chain is worn in safe areas almost exclusively and hidden on most of those rare occassions that put me in a bad area.

I wear it when appropriate and reasonable safe to do so. It is no different than having money in the bank. I take some out when I need it. I don't take it all out and then walk around with it all the time.

Appropriate by your standards may be different than mine or others. Reasonably safe to me means the good side of town. What does it mean to you?

You guys get stuck on the idea of wearing an expensive piece of jewelry fishing as not being appropriate. Says who the "when to wear jewelry" police? How is what I do any different than when you decide to wear yours. We both wear our gold in reasonably safe environments. I just stay in reasonably safe areas. The fishing trip with my son was a mistake which I corrected pretty quickly.

[David Armstrong]

So my chain is worn in safe areas almost exclusively and hidden on most of those rare occassions that put me in a bad area.

You seem to be missing the point that I and others are trying to make. By your own admission you realize the chain attracts bad guys. Therefore why wear it around bad guys, period? That is the point---it is not particularly smart to do things that you know will make your life more dangerous without any reason. By your own admission this place was so bad you put your son on lookout detail to watch for bad guys, but then you hung around for another 30 minutes. You left expensive chains visible on both you and your son instead of putting them out of sight. This does not strike me as a particularly good response. If you think hanging around in an area that you have identified as problematic, wearing bad guy attractant, with an 11 year old child in tow is a good thing, go for it, but I'm going to call it as not such a good idea.

Appropriate by your standards may be different than mine or others.

But "appropriate and reasonably safe" which was the whole concept, not just a piece of it, should not differ that much from person to person.

You guys get stuck on the idea of wearing an expensive piece of jewelry fishing as not being appropriate.

I can't speak for everyone, but I think what us guys are stuck on is the idea that you would do something to attract the bad guys when it is not necessary. Personally I don't find a $3000 piece of jewelry to be all that expensive, but I still fail to see how wearing it fishing does anything other than give an additional thing to worry about.

Says who the "when to wear jewelry" police?

I'm not aware of any such police, and even if so nobody is saying when and when not to wear jewelry. We are pointing out that doing stupid things increases the likelihood of a bad result, whether it be wearing jewelry, parking cars, flashing money, or anything else.

How is what I do any different than when you decide to wear yours.

Perhaps the biggest difference is that I actually decide when to do it, while you say you do it all the time no matter what. You might want to read up on a little thing called "the stealth existence" by noted instructor John Farnam.

[Fremmer]

You did fine, Three. You and your son are safe. Thanks for sharing the story with us. If you like your chain, fine with me; keep wearing it. Keep going fishing. Everything turned out fine.

[gtomax]

threegun, great work.

P.S. reply to this thread on a different matter here:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257301

Didn't want to hijack

[threegun]

David,

By your own admission you realize the chain attracts bad guys. Therefore why wear it around bad guys, period?

By your own admission you own and occassionally wear expensive jewelry, watch, etc. You also understand that it attracts bad guys so why even own it? When you wear it bad guys will be attracted to you right?

To answer your question again I don't go to areas that hold high concentrations of bad guys. The fishing trip was a fluke.

By your own admission this place was so bad you put your son on lookout detail to watch for bad guys, but then you hung around for another 30 minutes.

You are right I should have left sooner. I have told my son on many occasions to tell me if anyone was approaching us (even nice areas)as I try to stay in condition yellow. With the responsibility of watching rods and baiting hooks I need the help. I hung around because folks were minding their business and paying us no mind until that first guy. My son was having fun fishing. I allowed it to over ride my better judgement for awhile.

I can't speak for everyone, but I think what us guys are stuck on is the idea that you would do something to attract the bad guys when it is not necessary.

When is wearing jewelry and Rolex watches necessary David? The fact is it isn't ever necessary yet on occasion even you do it.....why? Why would you do something to attract bad guys? Then why would you scold another when you yourself occassionally attract bad guys with jewelry?

Perhaps the biggest difference is that I actually decide when to do it,

You decide when to wear the Rolex and I simply make it a point not to go into the ghetto. Lets not forget that if I notice unsavory people even in the good side of town I put the chain in my shirt (if it is out). Deciding when to wear your Rolex doesn't make it invisible to the bad guy.....(no stealth rolex's yet). When you do decide to wear it just remember that you think it is stupid to do so.

BTW I do appreciate you looking out for my / our well being. Thanks.

[threegun]

Fremmer and GTOmax, Thanks.

GTO I did post on the link thanks.

[reltor]

Solves a lot of gawking problems

[David Armstrong]

By your own admission you own and occassionally wear expensive jewelry, watch, etc. You also understand that it attracts bad guys so why even own it? When you wear it bad guys will be attracted to you right?

You keep missing the point. It has nothing to do with attracting the bad guys, the whole point of my discussion has been not attracting bad guys unnecessarily, without some reason. That means looking at your situation and doing things the smart way. Going out in public attracts the bad guys. Having a house attracts the bad guys. Driving through town attracts the bad guys. My point (and that of others) is that one should not do things to increase the attention of the BG without some reason. Again, you don’t walk around with all of your money held in your hand all the time, do you?

To answer your question again I don't go to areas that hold high concentrations of bad guys. The fishing trip was a fluke.

That seems to disagree with previous posts from you, but that may be an incorrect perception on my part.

I have told my son on many occasions to tell me if anyone was approaching us (even nice areas)as I try to stay in condition yellow. With the responsibility of watching rods and baiting hooks I need the help.

I’m sorry, but this just furthers my point. If I regularly went places that I had to put my son on watch detail, I’d question the wisdom of going there. And if I couldn’t watch my rods and bait my hooks without needing help watching for BGs I think I’d find someplace else to go fishing.

When is wearing jewelry and Rolex watches necessary David?

Again you persist in misunderstanding. Nobody has said a thing about it being necessary to ever wear jewelry, watches, drive fancy cars, carry lots of money, and so on. The point is not to do so in a way, place, or time that attract the bad guys. That is the difference, and until you understand that difference I’m afraid we will continue talking past each other. There is nothing wrong with an attractive lady wearing a skimpy bikini. But wearing it while jogging alone in a bad part of town at 3:00 in the morning is probably not the best thing time or place to do it.

The fact is it isn't ever necessary yet on occasion even you do it.....why? Why would you do something to attract bad guys?

See above. I don’t wear the stuff when it would attract the bad guys. That is part of cost/benefit and risk analysis.

Lets not forget that if I notice unsavory people even in the good side of town I put the chain in my shirt (if it is out).

Let’s not forget that part of this conversation started because you could not put the chain in your shirt when it was out.

Deciding when to wear your Rolex doesn't make it invisible to the bad guy.....(no stealth rolex's yet). When you do decide to wear it just remember that you think it is stupid to do so.

On the contrary. If I wore a Rolex fishing in the bad part of town, that would be stupid. I don’t think wearing nice jewelry or watches or driving nice cars when appropriate is stupid. The Rolex might be appropriate in a business setting, for example.

BTW I do appreciate you looking out for my / our well being. Thanks.

Welcome, and it isn’t just your well-being, it is something everyone needs to think about. You might note that my first post here was not in response to anything you said, it was in response to another poster’s comments. Way too many times people do things without realizing the potential for problems that are created. There is a large amount of crime and other social ills that could be reduced if we would all focus on that. Frequently we don’t because it is uncomfortable or “by God, it is my right!” or some such.

[Fremmer]

For goodness sake. You guys are still arguing about chains and watches. Bad people do bad things to those with and without chains and watches. You can't always be in condition yellow, or red, or whatever. I suppose that if you and your family constantly stay inside your house (in condition red, naturally :rolleyes), you'll be tactically prepared all the time.

He went fishing with his kid. They almost ran into trouble, but things turned out OK. He learned from the experience. Nobody really cares about chains and watches. If you want to wear a chain or a watch, do it. If you don't want to wear them, then don't. In fact, if you don't wear any clothing or accessories, fine by me. Although if I wore nothing, the bad guys and the good guys would flee in disgust.

[threegun]

The point is not to do so in a way, place, or time that attract the bad guys.

See above. I don’t wear the stuff when it would attract the bad guys. That is part of cost/benefit and risk analysis.

The Rolex might be appropriate in a business setting, for example.

My point is that these items, your rolex or my chain, attract bad guys. You can't say that you wear yours when it won't attract bad guys because you never know who the bad guy is. What you can do is wear it when you don't expect bad guys to be around you. I just try to always stay in areas that are reasonably safe.

That seems to disagree with previous posts from you, but that may be an incorrect perception on my part.

You are thinking of my job.....pawnshop manager in a not so nice section of town. That alone makes me a bigger target coming to and from work. I don't hang around these parts before or after work though. I stay on high alert well until I'm in better surroundings and always look for tails (just a habit now). A friend put into my head that someone was going to follow me home and get me while off guard to force me to open the safes here at work. Made me take more precautions.

I can't speak for everyone, but I think what us guys are stuck on is the idea that you would do something to attract the bad guys when it is not necessary.

My point was that wearing jewelry attracts bad guys and is never necessary. You can't guarentee that your Rolex won't attract a bad guy simply by wearing it to a business luncheon. Probably won't be as attractive as wearing it the hood but still attractive to bad guys and not necessary.

Nobody has said a thing about it being necessary to ever wear jewelry, watches, drive fancy cars, carry lots of money, and so on. The point is not to do so in a way, place, or time that attract the bad guys.

Again there are safer places to wear them but no place is completely bad guy free and they never stop attracting.

Let’s not forget that part of this conversation started because you could not put the chain in your shirt when it was out.

Yep. The old tank top got me. I could have put the chain in my fanny pack. Leaving was better. Like I said finding myself in a bad area was rare and in this case a fluke. No doubt though that the chain increased my danger level that day. On average though I don't feel it adds much risk given the areas I frequent. I haven't had an issue for many years while wearing it.

If I regularly went places that I had to put my son on watch detail, I’d question the wisdom of going there. And if I couldn’t watch my rods and bait my hooks without needing help watching for BGs I think I’d find someplace else to go fishing.

I am terrible at explaining thing so bear with me. I don't care if I'm in the "safest part of town" fishing a church pond with Gods angels guarding us LOL. If I'm not able to adequately maintain at least condition light yellow I will ask my son or perhaps my wife to be more aware of our surroundings. I might say boy don't let anybody sneak up on us okay. Not that the area is bad David but you just never know when trouble is coming. As stated before I try my darndest to avoid bad areas.

I very much understand what you are saying. I agree and assume a greater risk by wearing my chain. I try to mitigate that increased risk by environment and awareness. I believe that the it forces me to be more aware of my surroundings at all times. To me given this fact alone I feel less a target. You might feel different.

[threegun]

Fremmer, David and the others are just looking out. They are right in that I am increasing my odds of becomming a target. I just wanted to point out that expensive jewelry draws attention both good and bad no matter when or where you wear it. Owning and occasionally wearing expensive jewelry while understanding its attraction to bad guys then scolding others for doing the same is the reason for my arguement.

I believe that had I stayed fishing that day, even without the chain, trouble was coming. Although the chain could only hurt the situation.

[Ed Lawrence]

Threegun wrote:

I am terrible at explaining thing so bear with me. I don't care if I'm in the "safest part of town" fishing a church pond with Gods angels guarding us LOL. If I'm not able to adequately maintain at least condition light yellow I will ask my son or perhaps my wife to be more aware of our surroundings. I might say boy don't let anybody sneak up on us okay. Not that the area is bad David but you just never know when trouble is coming. As stated before I try my darndest to avoid bad areas.

This is different from what you wrote in your first post:

As we fished I began to notice that this particular area wasn't very "good". It looked beautiful in construction and maintenance however the people appeared poverty stricken. Lots of walkers & bike riders with grocery bags and sleeping material, clothes under the bridge (up where the bridge and ground meet and bums sleep). I told my son to keep an eye out for anyone that might be approaching us or looking at us. After about 30 minutes he says dad that guy is looking at us.

Originally you put your son on watch after you recognized that this wasn't the best area and stayed there at least 30 minutes longer. That hardly constitutes "trying your darndest to avoid bad areas."

People are questioning the judgement you displayed by hanging around fishing in an area that you recognized was questionable, while you and your son wore gold chains, making yourselves look like bait.

[threegun]

Ed, I did tell my son to keep a look out. I did stay longer than I should have. I said so earlier. The "bait" should have been hidden at that point but my attire didn't allow it....again my fault.

What you should understand however is everything didn't just happen at once and I walked into it knowingly. I should have left once I saw the poor people even thought they looked harmless and didn't pay us any mind. I should have left when I saw the clothing under the bridge. I should have tucked away my chain (just in case). I did a bunch of stuff wrong. The reason I posted was to share my good, bad, and SLOW decisions.

As for this

This is different from what you wrote in your first post:

I was simply trying to explain to David that because I said for my son to lookout doesn't necessarily mean a bad area because I do it in good areas as well. During that trip it was obviously a low income area.

I was in condition yellow on the fishing trip. I just waited a tad to long to react to what was happening. Like I said son was having fun fishing and things didn't happen all at once.

[threegun]

People are questioning the judgement you displayed by hanging around fishing in an area that you recognized was questionable, while you and your son wore gold chains, making yourselves look like bait.

And they should question my judgment. I hung around to long in hindsight. I believe that we would have been victims with or without the chains. If you were there I bet you would feel the same. Anyway we got out safely. Boy is smarter for it. Daddy is smarter for it. No bad guys were injured. We caught a few fish too.

[JoeBlackSpade]

We caught a few fish too.

That's the MAIN thing!

Spoken like a true fisherman.

[David Armstrong]

For goodness sake. You guys are still arguing about chains and watches.

Well, while the focus may still be on watches and chains, I hope that I have conveyed the idea that the fancy jewelry is just a symbol of a much larger problem that many people display, IMO.

You can't always be in condition yellow, or red, or whatever.

Correct, thus the importance of understanding risk issues beforehand and making informed decisions, such as Farnam’s “stealth existence” idea.

[David Armstrong]

My point is that these items, your rolex or my chain, attract bad guys. You can't say that you wear yours when it won't attract bad guys because you never know who the bad guy is.

And I have never said anything like that. I have always said that the choice to wear for me is based in part on appropriate time and place. The likelihood of a BG being around figures into that.

You are thinking of my job.....pawnshop manager in a not so nice section of town.

Actually I wasn’t thinking of that at all, but since you bring it up yes, it seems applicable.

My point was that wearing jewelry attracts bad guys and is never necessary. You can't guarentee that your Rolex won't attract a bad guy simply by wearing it to a business luncheon.

Again you seem to keep missing the basic concept. Few things in life can be guaranteed. But most things can be looked at as increasing or decreasing likelihood of certain events. For example, while fishing in a bad part of town with an expensive chain on would increase the likelihood of encountering problems, those problems are almost nonexistent at the business luncheon. And I can guarantee that if I felt there was a chance of such a problem at the luncheon I would not go there, certainly not with extensive valuables tossed into the mix.

But at this point We seem to be going round and round with what I think is a very simple concept that some seem to find impossible to understand, and I don't see any improvement in the future, so I'm done. You may have the last word.

[m-g willy]

I guess we should just turn everything over to the bad guys and hide in our houses?
What happens when a car load of thugs pull into the gas station behind you?Do you stay inside the station till they leave, or drive off without getting your gas?
Would you leave a resturant before finishing your meal if a group of undesirables came in?

Come on!

This is a free country -go where you want -sometime you might have to stand up to trouble.
(The guy that stopped and looked at you then looked around )
You should have confronted him with a "hey bud ,you looking for something"
Let him know you are watching him!

Your not the hunted your the hunter!

Willy

[wayneinFL]

I don't think threegun made any mistakes by fishing in an area like that. It's not unusual to see a few homeless hanging around a bridge. It's a good place to get out of the rain.

As for the expensive fishing tackle, if you are going to leave it at home when fishing, why have it?

As for the gold chain, so what? Sounds like they were sticking out like a sore thumb anyway. Two clean, white fishermen in a neighborhood like that- I wouldn't doubt they saw him get out of his car, and it's probably not something like my '88 ford wagon- they knew he had money, that he had something to steal.

[threegun]

Wayne, Actually I drive a 92 Camry. Looks and drives like great but doesn't attract attention. Aside the chain I am pretty conservative.