How Not To Get Shot By A Good Guy

[gvf]

Cars were getting their aluminum wheels and xeon lights ripped off of their cars on a street in NYC where I was living for awhile. I took off the computer a seal of the State of NY, enlarged it, printed underneath the name of the state agency I happen to work for (initials) and the year with more initials of the agency, had it laminated, and placed it nightly on my dash. It is very common in NYC to see official dash notices of all kinds, cops, firemen, priests, etc., most (excepting the police dash-cards of course) in a useless attempt to keep from getting ticketed by the millions of NY Traffic Police all over the place. VERY large fines (e.g. $65 is the cheapest parking fine - if by a meter, that's new tkt EVERY hour AND they come back. Cost of monthly parking in my neighborhood is $600/mo. Cost to buy a private parking space in condo building: e.g.: one building on 17th St, $225,000, just a space, no walls; there's a waiting-list). Anyway, you get the idea.

But mine was in hopes a thief might pass by car and choose another, with a slight worry I was a state official and ripping me off might cause him problems. Sort of like a steering wheel lock: they can be cut off (actually the steering wheel is cut) but it's like: "too much of hassle, I'll go to the next car")

Don't know if it helped but I never got ripped off, and the sign is not an attempt to impersonate any agency, just the state seal. Fact, I still use it in my home-city when not in NYC.

The CCW Badge though, that is too much and seems like it's a bit whacky-looking and might entice a DA to file charges in terms of the shooting itself if anything was problematic to begin with - or looked to be, or it might look bad to a jury in a civil case. No thanks.

PS: (can't resist this note about NYC Parking, it's so insane): 3 weeks ago while there, I was 3 min late moving my car for street cleaning, a 2x a week, hour and a half ritual, where everyone goes to their cars on the affected side of the street at 9:30 am or whatever, deftly pulls their car out of the space and double park directly across from the now empty space on opposite side of the one-way street; (where it's legal that day and all the spaces are taken. The police allow double-parking as long as you're in the car). It's so hard to get a space in NYC that everyone just leaves their cars when they find a space for days and weeks, but have to move it and quickly on street cleaning day - if you go around the block the space will be gone. After street cleaner leaves, all deftly and quickly pull back to the original space and sit in their cars for the next hour and a half. (It's legal to park if you're in the car so long as it was gone when cleaner was through).You read the papers, some do office work, others have breakfasts delivered, chat on their cells etc. At 11:00 am. all lock their cars and walk away in unison until next time.

I got my ticket after begging officers to give me a break to no avail. $65. If you are ticketed once for this violation and ticket is on your car, you won't be again. I took the ticket the cop had put in my hand and went back to my apt., realized I had the ticket and it was not on the car, rushed back, and BINGO: already had another. Total elapsed time: 8 min. Total cost: $130.

[David Armstrong]

David, I talked with my people for a good bit of time.

Perhaps that is the problem. You keep talking with “your people” and ignoring what all the other people are telling you.

You may be perceived by police or others as a threat to the person you are holding at gunpoint David. After all you are pointing a gun at them.

You keep failing to understand this point. When you are pointing a gun at another person YOU ARE A THREAT. If you do not immediately follow the nice police officer’s instructions, steps will be taken to counter that threat. Waving a badge doesn’t change that.

I know that the presence of a badge will cause the overwhelming majority of good guys to pause.

There is that false sense of security again. Let me give you a real eye-opener. Go talk with a few LEOs and give them this situation: you (the LEO) respond to a "shots fired, man with a gun" call. When you get there somebody you have never seen before, waving around a badge that does not appear to be from a local agency, is pointing a gun at a man on the ground, threatening him. You (LE) tell the guy to step back and drop the gun. The guy quickly turns toward you, pointing the gun your direction instead of doing what you tell them. What will you do?

My personal interviews have been unanimous.

And those who have not been personally interviewed by you seem almost unanimous in a completely opposite view. Why do you think that is? Why is everyone you talk to saying one thing, but virtually everyone else saying something else? Remember, it is not just me, you have a number of folks just on this thread that disagree with your position. If I got the count right, of those that have commented on the badge concept here there have been 17 that have been opposed to one degree or another, while only 3 have supported the idea. Review the threads that John posted, and you will find similar results.

If you walked up on the scene of a man holding a gun on another and he holds up a badge what does that mean to you David?

It means exactly the same thing as if I walk up on a scene and he doesn’t hold up a badge: that he needs to do exactly what the friendly policeman says and we’ll exchange pleasantries later when I find out what is going on. The badge doesn't change any of the dynamics.

If a policeman were to see me a bald, brown skinned, somewhat menacing looking, aggressively build man holding a gun on a cowering, begging, hands in the air criminal, he might make the wrong assumption.

You still have not answered this basic question--WHY are you holding this fellow at gunpoint? Particularly if he is cowering, begging, hands in the air, etc.? I can almost guarantee that if you are holding someone at gunpoint and waving a badge around that you will be considered to be impersonating an officer.

Lots of people out of LE have badges property inspectors, firefighter etc.

Which is why waving a badge around doesn’t mean much. I think you just proved my point. Having a badge doesn't automatically mean that you are a LEO, or even that you are a good guy.

[Xenia]

Just for the sake of thinking this situation out for myself here is what I would do.

If I had tried to stop someone but didn't need to shoot them and they had sat on the ground instead of running while the police were on thier way.....

if someone approached I would ask them to call 911 because the guy had tried to assault me. If I had called 911 already I would tell them I did and ask if they would call 911 too so I could better watch the guy.

If the guy wanted to run away, I would let him but I wouldn't suggest it.

When the police showed up. I would do exactly as they told me. Even if they wanted me to lay on the ground, etc.

I would however be quickly telling my side of the story! (I don't have a badge so that issue is moot for me.)

I might have a different point of view on this because of working at a Prison and having training in what to do in riots or if held hostage. We are taught to expect to be arrested at least briefly until authorities know what is what. That is for the safety of everyone.

[threegun]

David, Why do you continue to assume that I won't be following the nice policeman's orders? Why do you keep posting as if I plan on waving my gun around. You seem to think that I believe the badge is going to allow me to act irresponsibly. Perhaps your inability to understand what I posted has somehow biased your view. I mean heck I said several times that I would follow all orders by police and that the badge was only to give them and CCP'ers pause in the rare event that they might shoot prematurely.

Now I understand why your people keep coming up so opposite my people. You have this idea that A. I'm trying to play copper. B. You think I believe the badge is a "magic talisman" that will allow me to point my gun at cops and not follow instructions.

Perhaps that is the problem. You keep talking with “your people” and ignoring what all the other people are telling you.

So your people, internet commando's for all I know, should trump Tampa Police officers and Hillsborough County Sheriffs Deputies? Are you serious? Why would you insult fellow officers like that?

If you walk up on the situation of a man holding a gun and a badge on another person and it doesn't give you an idea of who is the good guy in this scenario there really is no point in arguing further. Every single person I have asked said they would pause. Its obvious you just want to argue, something you have a history of doing. You have made assumptions despite me explaining otherwise. Assumptions that I feel have biased you and your people.

[threegun]

NJtrigger,
I asked many officers in person including showing them the badge and permit and they seem to think that impersonation laws are not broken by simply holding up the badge and permit.

The first officer I asked (TPD I believe) even said before I asked that it would give him an idea of who the bad guy was. Of course he said that I had better not wave the gun around or act stupid with it (not that I would anyway). Still my point, that it causes a pause was reinforced. It has been reinforced many more time since. Until I posted here that is. Come to find out those arguing seem to be biased or otherwise adding stuff into the mix.

If you feel it is not proper or safe don't do it. I am convinced that it will work to keep me safe and that it isn't against the law. My sources are unanimous here. Thats all that matters for me.

[JohnKSa]

Still my point, that it causes a pause was reinforced. It has been reinforced many more time since.

Did you ask any of these officers how common it was for an officer to arrive on the scene and immediately shoot people based only on the fact that they held a gun? Unless this is a problem then they're already pausing.

[threegun]

At last check there were hundreds of thousands of CCW holders in Florida alone. They may not be as professional as most LE. Just reading some of the posts here a TFL make my choice seem smart.

Bottom line is crapola happens. I feel it will help.

Did you ask any of these officers how common it was for an officer to arrive on the scene and immediately shoot people based only on the fact that they held a gun?

No. Most did say that they wouldn't just roll up and shoot. All said it would make them pause. I can only assume that it would tell them who the good guy is at a glance.

[JohnKSa]

Most did say that they wouldn't just roll up and shoot.

Not surprising--this is the way they're trained. i.e. to take control of the situation with the minimum amount of violence required.

[threegun]

John, How are permit holders trained? How are security guards trained?

We used to pull a joke on gun shoppers at the Pawnshop I work. When someone would ask to see a gun, as they examined the gun, we would put our arms up and make our eyes open wide. It would look as if the shopper was holding up the shop. When they looked up the expression on their faces was priceless. One actually tossed the gun to me and backed up with his arms up. Well one day a customer says that we were going to get someone shot joking like that. It was decided that we should never do that again not because a police sniper with an automatic green light was hiding in the grassy knoll but because of customers who might have a concealed weapon and really think we were being robbed.

Not every policeman is perfect or professional although most are. While I feel most officers wait to long to shoot a few might not wait long enough. Still that leaves CCP holders and security guards......neither have the training. Many security guards are people who failed the police psychological test, your true wannabe cops.

I really don't worry about looking corny or people like David making assumptions of my intentions. It is legal according to the officers I asked and my research suggests that it will help identify myself as a good guy. That combined with proper gun handling I feel makes me safer from everyone carrying except for another criminal maybe.

[JohnKSa]

How are permit holders trained? How are security guards trained?

Impossible to answer--the training varies widely from place to place. There may not even be training, and where it is, it's nothing like what LE gets.

I thought this was primarily about LE--are you really suggesting that pointing something shiny at a lightly trained, armed person is a good way NOT to get shot?

[threegun]

No I'm suggesting that holding a gun pointed at a badguy in one hand and a badge in the other will reduce your chances of getting shot by unprofessional LE or untrained civilians with guns.

[eltorrente]

This just seems like a bad idea all around.

So, what you're saying is that when the cops show up, instead of putting your gun down, you'll instead turn toward them and flash the badge, while continuing to hold the gun? If the cops are there, there is no need to continue holding the gun on the guy.

I can't envision why it would be a good idea to continue to stand there pointing the gun after the cops showed up. Turning and flashing a badge at them - just to make them think you're a cop and have the situation under control, seems pretty silly and risky.

[mikejonestkd]

The first words out of the LEO that arrives on the scene will NOT be " Gee, what a nice shiny badge you have there...hey, I have no idea who you are but go ahead and hold onto that gun while I take a look at that nice shiny badge you have...."

What they will say is "DROP THE GUN, ......NOW!!!" If you turn to show them the badge whilst continuing to hold onto the firearm they may not consider that to be a friendly non threatening thing to do...and it may be the last thing you do...


All in all it is a very bad idea.

[njtrigger]

You guys can go do what you want with fake badges if you believe thats the right thing to do. However, I strongly believe that you will either get shot and/or arrested. At the very least, you will be arrested and maybe your CCW taken away.

[threegun]

The bill, instead, prohibits an individual who is not a peace officer or a medical examiner from performing the duties of a peace officer or medical examiner; representing to another person that he or she is a peace officer or medical examiner for any unlawful purpose; or representing to another person that he or she is a peace officer or medical examiner with the intent to compel the person to do or refrain from doing any act against his or her will. Except as described below, a violation will remain a misdemeanor punishable by up to one year’s imprisonment, a maximum fine of $1,000, or both.



The bill makes it a felony punishable by up to four years’ imprisonment, a maximum fine of $5,000, or both, for an offender to perform the duties of a peace officer, or represent to another person that he or she is a peace officer, in order to commit or attempt to commit a crime. A sentence imposed for this offense may be ordered to be served consecutively to any term of imprisonment imposed for another violation arising from the same transaction.

Displaying your permit and CWP badge is not representing yourself as an officer. You are simply holding up your ID for responding LE. The fact that they and others will pause because they believe you could possibly be an officer isn't a crime. Unless you say I'm a cop or otherwise do LE duties there is no crime.

[threegun]

NJ, You do what you feel is proper and I will do the same. No problem. Still displaying a permit badge is no crime alone. It does give responders the idea of who is the good guy from a distance. To a man......and woman everyone I asked has said something to this effect. If it isn't illegal and does effect folks in my area the way I want it to and I feel safer.....why not? I don't care what others think in terms of it being corny. My goal is to not be shot by friendlies nothing more.

People make instant judgements based on what they see. I promise you that a black man is instantly judged as the perpretrator more times than not when in a conflict with say a white. Hispanics (like me) are going to get chosen as the perp more often than a white person. It is the facts of life and understandable since both commit higher levels of crime per capita. I want the LE officers instant judgement to be that I'm the good guy. Then he can sort it out using the evidence.

[eltorrente]

I want the LE officers instant judgement to be that I'm the good guy.

Well then you should put the gun down when they arrive!

Why in the world would you continue to hold your weapon on the badguy and flash a fake badge after the cops arrive?!?! They pull up, you put the gun down and step back - it's real simple. Instead you want to continue holding your weapon and turn and flash your badge.

There's no reason to continue holding your weapon at someone once they get there! You act like you NEED to keep standing there for as long as possible with your gun out... it just doesn't make any sense.

[JohnKSa]

Well then you should put the gun down when they arrive!

That's short, sweet and to the point...

threegun,

Canvas your sources again and ask them which is more likely to prevent you from getting shot--immediately putting your gun down or flashing a badge.

[threegun]

Eltorrente,

Instead you want to continue holding your weapon and turn and flash your badge.

For the last time I never said this. In fact I said compliance with LE orders is obviously mandatory. How about you go back and read my posts before making assumptions.

Let me ask you buddy. How can you help prevent yourself from getting shot by a concealed weapon carrying civilian who sees you pointing a gun at a bad guy while waiting for police to arrive? If he sees you also holding a badge it allows him to know who the good guy is.

You guys seem to think that every police officer is professional and that LE are the only people out there with guns. It just makes sense IMO to let them know who the good guy is. My research is unanimous with both LE and civilians. A man holding a badge will get extra time as long as he follows directions. I believe that every minority CWP holder should carry one just to counter the first assumptions made by folks arriving on the scene. If you don't want to that fine. Just don't say that it won't work because deep down inside you would never shoot a man holding a badge unless he threatens you with the gun. Yeah I know you wouldn't shoot anyone unless they threaten you with a gun.......me neither. There are however folks that would shoot based on what the see initially especially when it involves a minority. I never expect a car accident but am insured just in case...........same thing.

[threegun]

John, Come on dude I said several times that you must comply regardless. Of course they said compliance was king. They aren't the real threat here. The over whelming majority of LE I feel bend over back wards not to shoot someone to the jeopardy of their own safety at times. They are not the problem as I have said. It is the few bad apples in LE and the hundreds of thousands of CCP holders and security guards who I worry about. Most have little if any training. Many security guards failed police psychology tests and couldn't get hired into LE. Just reading some of the post here at TFL should tell you that there are moron rambo types who carry concealed just itchin to light someone up. I don't want to be that someone. Holding my ID/Badge doesn't harm a thing and it works as intended..........according to my study.

[Tim Burke]

It isn't the absence of the badge in your support hand that will get you shot quickly, it's the presence of your gun in your dominant hand.
You want a pause? Then have your hands empty when the police arrive- that will get you a much longer pause than your badge.

[threegun]

Tim, Back to the (police are the only armed folks out there) thinking again I see. What about armed civilians? What about the dangerous felon you are holding a gunpoint? Put my leverage away before LE arrives? How about holding your ID/badge up until police arrive then follow instructions. Much safer IMO.

BTW just asked another armed guard in our shop shopping for a shotgun and he said the badge would cause him to pause also. It has just been unanimous here.

[newarcher]

I will just reiterate it this way.....

There are established laws on the books regarding CCW and most police cannot or aren't trained properly to understand those. Hence the disparity when you ask an officer where you can and cannot carry. Hence some of the stories and even some bogus convictions when the sheeple believe the cop because he is a cop and for no other reason. AKA....the defendant is a defendant so he must be guilty.

I think that you will get about a 90-10 chance of going to jail for impersonating a police officer with that badge. Most officers probably haven't even seen a CCW badge and frankly I think it is one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard.

I think that in your scenario, it will go like this:
[police] When I rolled up to the scene of a man holding a perp at gunpoint, this defendant sticks a wallet with a badge up in the air as if he were an undercover police officer or an off duty police officer. Believing him to be a police officer due to the badge, I turned my attention to the man on the ground. Only later when I interviewed the defendant did I come to realize that the badge was a CCW badge after which I arrested the defendant for impersonating a police officer.
[sheeple witness 1] I saw the man with the gun show the police a wallet with a badge and I immediately thought he was a police officer.
[sheeple witness 2] The man with the gun on the man on the ground held up a badge when the police arrived and I thought immediately that he was a cop.
[jury member 1] I don't like guns and I think this guy is just a cowboy wanting to act like he is a police officer.
[jury members 2-12] Definitely a wanna be
[Court reporter reading the verdict] We find the defendent guilty of impersonating an officer
[Your new cellmate] Ooooohweee you sure smell pretty. Welcome to the cell of sodomy, I took the liberty of leaving you a pillow mint and a towel to bite down on.

Pulling out a badge and pointing it at a police officer is the stupidest idea EVER. First, if the police officer sees you holding a suspect at gunpoint and you move to point ANY object at him or her, you will probably get shot just for that. If you don't, every police officer in the land is going to arrest your sorry butt for impersonating because hardly anyone but yourself even knows CCW badges exist.

You may not get shot (even that is uncertain) but you will...with 90% certainty go to jail for impersonating.

New

[threegun]

frankly I think it is one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard.

Great then don't do it.

I think that you will get about a 90-10 chance of going to jail for impersonating a police officer with that badge.

Check the law. Simply holding up a CW badge with your CW permit to identify yourself as a permit holder is not illegal. Again you guys are knee jerk reacting to this idea. Think it through. The fact that everyone assumes you might be a cop because of the badge is irrelevent. The fact is you have not said you are a cop. You have not performed the duties of a cop. You don't have police equiptment. You are simply properly displaying your id for officers.

Pulling out a badge and pointing it at a police officer is the stupidest idea EVER.

Who suggested that? I said have it out and hold it UP for them to see. Only a not so smart fella would pull and point anything at police. If you would have read my posts you would know this though.

[mikejonestkd]

>>>You are simply properly displaying your id for officers<<<

You are not displaying your Id for the officers.

You are displaying a fake badge that means nothing to the arriving LEO's, it is not accepted anywhere as legal ID, that is why you will have to provide your CCW as real proof that you have a CCW.