New Handgun Cartridge Development - Page 4

**JohnKSa** · October 23, 2021, 02:01 PM

Quote:

However, both the round and the S&W pistol chosen were bigger and more difficult for enough of their agents to handle that qualification scores went down.

The FBI then went to a reduced power 10mm load...

I have never seen any evidence that the FBI issued any ammo other than the reduced power 10mm load. That is, all the evidence I have seen says that they settled on the reduced power 10mm load BEFORE they ever issued any 10mm guns or ammo to agents.

However, the point is well taken--they felt they were getting the performance they needed from the reduced loading and saw no need to pay the recoil penalty for more. It does speak to the idea of there being limits placed on cartridges--for example, on the lower end from performance requirements and on the upper limits by recoil tolerance.

**44 AMP** · October 23, 2021, 03:02 PM

Even Dirty Harry had his limits. In Magnum Force there is a scene where he admits to shooting .44 Specials, not magnums.

Seedy Character · October 23, 2021, 04:47 PM

.22 TCM

Shadow9mm · October 23, 2021, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Even Dirty Harry had his limits. In Magnum Force there is a scene where he admits to shooting .44 Specials, not magnums.

Funny thing is, I chrongraphed some of my buddies 44spl loads out of a 4in, 6in and 20in barrels. The thing I found interesting is the performance was fairly similar to 45acp with similar bullet weights, with the exception of the 20in lever gun.

**44 AMP** · October 23, 2021, 06:28 PM

The original .44 Special factory load is a bit on the weak side for the cartridge, being a 246gr bullet at about 700fps from 5" barrels.

In guns like the Colt SAA the .44 Spl can reach 900-1000fps+ depending on barrel length and Keith got considerably more with his loads without blowing up the guns.

Ruger45LC · October 23, 2021, 09:18 PM

I'm sure there are reasons, but today a lot of the mindset for handgunners is to shoot as fast as possible and put as many rounds on target as it takes and most focus on the ancient 9x19 and a good number consider anything more powerful to take away from that ability to put rounds on target....odd, I know.

I've played around with loading .45 Super hot, making it a 460 Rowland but that's really only a handloaders proposition, since the external dimensions are the same as the .45 ACP, if one found its way into an old .45 the results could be nasty, so I can see why although very good, cartridges like the 45 Super don't really ever take off and wouldn't, they're too big a liability for the big ammo makers.

I'm not sure why there isn't a 44 caliber modern semi auto self defense cartridge, I mean I do based on todays shooters, I can hear them screaming "too much recoil", but a .429" semi auto round that has the same general OAL of the .45 and 10mm but more powerful, at least potentially, than both with capacity in between the two would be great... but it doesn't exist for some reason. Also something like a 9x23 but running actual .357" bullets instead of 9mm bullets, you'd have good power and 9mm like capacity.

Jim Watson · October 23, 2021, 10:03 PM

There was a .357 Auto invented and prototyped on this board. Even got half a page in a print gunzine.

There have been several threads on a .44 Auto.
"They" are not going to make one for you. Some proponent would have to put his money where his keyboard is and cough up the price of a custom .429" barrel for a 1911 or such.

**44 AMP** · October 24, 2021, 10:29 AM

Quote:

I'm not sure why there isn't a 44 caliber modern semi auto self defense cartridge,

Probably because there's no point to it, and certainly because there's no market demand for one. Literally, any pistol big enough to take a .44 will take a .45.

Plus, no matter what you do, you're going to have very vocal critics on both sides, expect them to start before you even create a physical example.

One set will be complaining about too big too heavy, too much recoil, not enough rounds, and too expensive (and that's just to begin with), and the other side will be complaining hot its not powerful enough, its not a magnum, no good bullets for hunting, its a semi auto and so on...

AND, those are without even naming an existing gun you're going to put it in,,,and if its going in a new gun design, well, that's just a double whammy or negativism for the internet "experts" (aka keyboard commados)...

I have a few .44 caliber semi autos. I enjoy them immensely, but they ARE MAGNUMS! And they need to be.

Unlike the commercial world and many, many people, my world does not revolve around defensive handguns. They are a part, but not my main focus.

You want to meet the desires of everyone better look for an alternate reality, because people seem to only want a pistol with the power of an elephant gun, ZERO recoil, one that weighs nothing, never runs out of ammo, and costs less than a cup of coffee. Oh, and better make it invisible, too, and it will help sales if it can only be fired by the legal owner....

They find fault with everything less, in one way, or another. People are like that...

there are a lot of possible new cartridge designs or concepts that would do useful things, BUT there's no market unless it does something existing stuff doesn't. And that's the rub. Like a lot of things, until the market WANTS it, few people will try and make it, and few of those will succeed.

IN the 50s you couldn't buy a car with seatbelts. They existed, but nobody wanted them/ didn't feel they were needed. Today, not only can you not find a car without them, there are laws that say you HAVE to wear them!

At some point the public will once again remember that a plastic 9mm isn't the be all end all of handgunning. Some of us have never forgotten...

SSGN-Doc · October 25, 2021, 12:01 AM

7.5 BRNO is the most recent handgun round that seems like it could be interesting. Most others are just filling very fine gaps between existing cartridges.

The X-Frame rounds are just not practical, fun, affordable or manageable in any reasonably sized handgun, where a light rifle wouldn’t be better.

jackstrawIII · October 25, 2021, 09:25 AM

Quote:

7.5 BRNO is the most recent handgun round that seems like it could be interesting

Have to admit I’d never heard of the 7.5 BRNO… but I like the idea.

One of my thoughts for a cartridge I’d be interested in was something like a 10mm case necked down to use 100 grain .312 bullets. Could be pretty fast, fairly mild, and hit hard. The only downside would be that the muzzle blast would be pretty extreme. Would need a longer barrel for sure.

Seedy Character · October 26, 2021, 08:59 PM

.327 Fed Mag

About every niche is filled
Straight wall cases work in revolvers. Nothing much left to develop.

ds-10-speed · October 27, 2021, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seedy Character

.327 Fed Mag

About every niche is filled
Straight wall cases work in revolvers. Nothing much left to develop.

I'm mostly a revolver guy myself with several .22 and .38/.357 revolvers. I was intrigued with the .327 Mag when it came out but I was hoping to see smaller revolvers to come out as a result of the smaller diameter but there isn't any reduction in size.

I would think a new round maybe called a ".257 magnum" could make for a powerful small pocket revolver. It probably wouldn't be very popular but I've always liked to see new rounds come out that fill a void.

jackstrawIII · October 27, 2021, 11:12 AM

Quote:

I was intrigued with the .327 Mag when it came out but I was hoping to see smaller revolvers to come out as a result of the smaller diameter but there isn't any reduction is size.

That's my issue with the 327 mag as well. If i'm going to carry a full size revolver... I might as well shoot a 357 mag, which I find quite shootable even in a J/K size gun.

My idea for something in the .312 size range would be a bottleneck cartridge for semi autos. Very similar to the 7.5 BRNO that Doc mentioned.

Jim Watson · October 28, 2021, 10:45 AM

Quote:

I would think a new round maybe called a ".257 magnum" could make for a powerful small pocket revolver. It probably wouldn't be very popular but I've always liked to see new rounds come out that fill a void.

Years ago, I read of a custom revolver in .25 Hornet. The gun writer said it had an amazingly flat trajectory - it was built for varmint hunting, not hideout - and an amazingly loud muzzle blast.

Seedy Character · October 28, 2021, 02:57 PM

The .256 Win and .25-20 are fun cartridges.

Just not many niches to fill.

A 2" SP101 6 shot .327 is a small, handy Lil shooter.

ds-10-speed · October 28, 2021, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

Years ago, I read of a custom revolver in .25 Hornet. The gun writer said it had an amazingly flat trajectory - it was built for varmint hunting, not hideout - and an amazingly loud muzzle blast.

I was thinking of a straight wall .257 caliber like a scaled down .327 so a smaller diameter cylinder and gun could be made, something in-between an NAA Mini and an LCR, SP101 or J frame. Just a crazy thought since there are so many variations out there now, what's one more?

ballardw · October 29, 2021, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ds-10-speed

I was thinking of a straight wall .257 caliber like a scaled down .327 so a smaller diameter cylinder and gun could be made, something in-between an NAA Mini and an LCR, SP101 or J frame. Just a crazy thought since there are so many variations out there now, what's one more?

Or go with .251 which is where bullet design for expansion in less-than-rifle velocities has been done.

mrt949 · October 29, 2021, 07:15 AM

327 Mag is good round if starting out .

Gas Bag · November 17, 2021, 07:21 PM

I bought a S&W 4046 and if I hand load a .40, I can replicate .357 power.In a gun that size, that is pretty good power.

I don’t adhere to the “shoot them until they are dead” philosophy, which seems to be the new mantra for the 9mm. I want something that tends to knock their lights out with a few shots.

And developing new rounds and guns is hard to do, when the rounds that we have, can be pretty good medicine for crooks and dogs.

October 23, 2021, 03:02 PM	#77
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,804	Even Dirty Harry had his limits. In Magnum Force there is a scene where he admits to shooting .44 Specials, not magnums. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

October 23, 2021, 06:28 PM	#80
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,804	The original .44 Special factory load is a bit on the weak side for the cartridge, being a 246gr bullet at about 700fps from 5" barrels. In guns like the Colt SAA the .44 Spl can reach 900-1000fps+ depending on barrel length and Keith got considerably more with his loads without blowing up the guns. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

October 29, 2021, 07:15 AM	#93
mrt949 Senior Member Join Date: November 16, 2008 Posts: 1,692	327 Mag is good round if starting out . __________________ No Gun Big Or Small Does It All

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October 23, 2021, 04:47 PM	#78
Seedy Character Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2021 Location: SW Okla Posts: 201	.22 TCM

October 23, 2021, 09:18 PM	#81
Ruger45LC Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 768	I'm sure there are reasons, but today a lot of the mindset for handgunners is to shoot as fast as possible and put as many rounds on target as it takes and most focus on the ancient 9x19 and a good number consider anything more powerful to take away from that ability to put rounds on target....odd, I know. I've played around with loading .45 Super hot, making it a 460 Rowland but that's really only a handloaders proposition, since the external dimensions are the same as the .45 ACP, if one found its way into an old .45 the results could be nasty, so I can see why although very good, cartridges like the 45 Super don't really ever take off and wouldn't, they're too big a liability for the big ammo makers. I'm not sure why there isn't a 44 caliber modern semi auto self defense cartridge, I mean I do based on todays shooters, I can hear them screaming "too much recoil", but a .429" semi auto round that has the same general OAL of the .45 and 10mm but more powerful, at least potentially, than both with capacity in between the two would be great... but it doesn't exist for some reason. Also something like a 9x23 but running actual .357" bullets instead of 9mm bullets, you'd have good power and 9mm like capacity.

October 23, 2021, 10:03 PM	#82
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	There was a .357 Auto invented and prototyped on this board. Even got half a page in a print gunzine. There have been several threads on a .44 Auto. "They" are not going to make one for you. Some proponent would have to put his money where his keyboard is and cough up the price of a custom .429" barrel for a 1911 or such.

October 25, 2021, 12:01 AM	#84
SSGN-Doc Member Join Date: September 7, 2021 Posts: 38	7.5 BRNO is the most recent handgun round that seems like it could be interesting. Most others are just filling very fine gaps between existing cartridges. The X-Frame rounds are just not practical, fun, affordable or manageable in any reasonably sized handgun, where a light rifle wouldn’t be better.

October 26, 2021, 08:59 PM	#86
Seedy Character Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2021 Location: SW Okla Posts: 201	.327 Fed Mag About every niche is filled Straight wall cases work in revolvers. Nothing much left to develop.

October 28, 2021, 02:57 PM	#90
Seedy Character Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2021 Location: SW Okla Posts: 201	The .256 Win and .25-20 are fun cartridges. Just not many niches to fill. A 2" SP101 6 shot .327 is a small, handy Lil shooter.

November 17, 2021, 07:21 PM	#94
Gas Bag Member Join Date: January 3, 2019 Posts: 69	I bought a S&W 4046 and if I hand load a .40, I can replicate .357 power.In a gun that size, that is pretty good power. I don’t adhere to the “shoot them until they are dead” philosophy, which seems to be the new mantra for the 9mm. I want something that tends to knock their lights out with a few shots. And developing new rounds and guns is hard to do, when the rounds that we have, can be pretty good medicine for crooks and dogs.