Acceptable group size for 45 Auto strike fired gun??

Nathan · June 1, 2015, 08:40 PM

When you are loading for 45 Auto, what is an acceptable group size for an XD, Glock, M&P type gun?

My last loads from my XD gave me 1.5" at 15 yards. This was developed with 5 shot groups and confirmed with a 16 shot group. Seems pretty good to me??

Bongo Boy · June 1, 2015, 11:31 PM

That's a tough question--the answer just depends on so many factors. I don't think 'striker fired' should be any inherent limitation, so I'd expect that whatever a good bullseye shooter can do with a custom 1911, can probably be done with a plastic 45 as well. For me, shooting 1 1/2" groups offhand at 15 yds is the best I can do, and it doesn't happen very consistently for me. My MP45c is capable of it with relatively modest loads under a cast round nose flat point. The shooter seldom is.

I guess what I'd say is that now you have your own 'acceptable standard' or, to put a more positive spin on it, you have set the bar for yourself and your loads. I just did the very same thing with 44 Magnum: same group size at the same distance. Now that load and the shooter should be able to do that 9 times out of ten or more--that's my own goal. But that was with a red dot...big difference from iron sights when you're an old geezer like me.

The challenge is that, getting from 4" groups to 1 1/2" groups was brain dead simple. Getting 1 1/2" down to 1" ... well, that will likely be far more difficult. At the moment, it doesn't even seem possible (for me).

Hammerhead · June 2, 2015, 01:19 AM

Quote:

My last loads from my XD gave me 1.5" at 15 yards.

Solid accuracy there.
Don't know why striker fired guns would have a different accuracy standard though.
I'm always striving for ≤3" groups at 25 yards with my HK45C. If I had a high end 1911 or full size HK I would expect better.

noylj · June 2, 2015, 02:55 AM

My goal with all standard handguns is <2" at 25 yards.
Not all guns can do it.
1.5" off-hand at 15 yards is just fine.

Nathan · June 2, 2015, 03:46 AM

First, I'm judging the load and not the gun. I'm trying to decide when the load is "developed" and ready to make 1000 plus.

Quote:

Don't know why striker fired guns would have a different accuracy standard though.

To me, striker fired, stock, etc are important.....with a custom 1911, I should be better, but due to trigger and barrel fit there is some limit of how this gun will shoot.

Thanks for the answers. I guess I'm just looking for a gut check before I make a ton of these.

Fox84 · June 2, 2015, 05:27 AM

I don't think you'll better those groups. What's the recipe?

jmorris · June 2, 2015, 07:45 AM

The largest factor would be the person pulling the trigger. What is "acceptable" mean to you? Worded another way, how well can you shoot other types of handguns?

If you can shoot a revolver or different semiauto into one hole at 15yds, I would say you could do better. If you shoot them about the same as the XD, I'd say the load is fine and the only thing to work on to shrink group size is you.

pete2 · June 2, 2015, 09:54 AM

Acceptable group size is 2" at 25 yards just like any other gun except for belly guns.

T. O'Heir · June 2, 2015, 02:26 PM

For what? If your 1.5" is consistent in your hand, it's good. If it's off a machine rest, not so much. However, what kind of shooting you plan on doing matters.

jmr40 · June 2, 2015, 04:32 PM

My Glocks are every bit as accurate as a standard out of the box 1911. They won't shoot as well as one built as a target gun or one that has been worked over.

mavracer · June 2, 2015, 04:42 PM

I'd prefer to test at 25 yards, 3" at that distance is OK 2" would be good for service grade weapons

Fox84 · June 2, 2015, 05:03 PM

I still need a recipe for such tight groups. Mine are like 6 inch's at 15yds offhand.

Nathan · June 2, 2015, 05:56 PM

Quote:

I don't think you'll better those groups. What's the recipe?

45 Auto
Mixed brass - untrimmed
WIN LP primers
6.6 gr Longshot
Powerbond 230gr plated HP
OAL = 1.190"
Light crimp

Fox84 · June 2, 2015, 06:05 PM

Thanks as I load Longshot as well.

rtpzwms · June 2, 2015, 07:23 PM

jmorris nailed it. nuff said.

Nathan · June 3, 2015, 04:10 AM

Jmorris: while I can shoot my S&W 19-3 all into the same hole at 15 yards, it is a different animal.

I guess I'm wondering if 1.5" at 15 yards(rested) is a keeper for IDPA or if others are generally developing 45 auto loads that are closer to an inch with a g21, xd44, etc.

I think this load is good enough, especially after I put 16 into 1.5". I'll be loading all I have into this.

Bongo Boy · June 3, 2015, 12:25 PM

Quote:

I guess I'm wondering if 1.5" at 15 yards (rested) is a keeper for IDPA

I'd say yes, for IDPA in my experience where the worst case for accuracy is pie plates at 25 yds or so. My experience with Longshot, though, has not been a happy one. It's commonly called 'Loudshot' for a reason, and I find it's the loudest, harshest recoil propellant I've ever used--and almost the flashiest. I don't think these features are ideal for action shooting, but I wouldn't hesitate to load 'em and shoot 'em just the same. I might do a bit shorter production run than 1,000 rds, if I had other choices on hand. If I didn't, I wouldn't worry about it. Other choices I think folks have found very good for that application include Clays and Solo 1000.

At short ranges, I actually have never done noticeably better from a rest than I do offhand, and several times I've done quite a bit worse--sounds ridiculous, but it's a fact. I assume it's my posture, anticipation, poor or different-than-normal grip on the gun. Have not gotten it sorted yet.

In any case, I'd load up a few boxes and do some Bill Drills or similar, and see how you feel about reacquiring the target rapidly.

For me, IDPA and IPSC was usually more about:

1) Remember to use your sights
2) Use them
3) Press the trigger

than it was about accuracy. I tend to panic a bit and get in a hurry, which slows me down.

vaalpens · June 3, 2015, 01:10 PM

I evaluate my handloads shooting from a rest to try and evaluate the loads, not my shooting. My target groupings are 1" at 10yds, 1.5" at 15 yards, and 2.5" at 25 yards. When I start seeing .8" at 10yds, 1.2" at 15yds and 2" at 25yds, then I start taking notice.

I only reload for 9mm, 40s&w and 357sig and has the same grouping expectation for all 3 calibers. Can't see why 45acp will be any different.

jmorris · June 4, 2015, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Jmorris: while I can shoot my S&W 19-3 all into the same hole at 15 yards, it is a different animal.

I guess I'm wondering if 1.5" at 15 yards(rested) is a keeper for IDPA

It is not that different. At 15 yards the difference between same hole and 1.5" is a lot.

That said IDPA does not require as much accuracy as some games, you would do better with more accuracy but you can still win against pistols better suited for the game than an XD, you just have to shoot, move and reload faster. Of course if they do them as fast or even a bit slower but more accurately, you loose.

WVMountaineer · June 4, 2015, 05:24 PM

You got a winner. The number of people who can consistently shoot 2 or 3 inch, 10 shot groups, with a stock pistol, at 25 yards isn't many. Doing it once don't make it consistent. Besides, putting 16 in that 1.5 inch grouping at 15 yards is saying you are right on par to compete with that very rare accuracy at 25. Good shooting and God Bless

Nathan · June 4, 2015, 07:01 PM

Thanks fellas...I appreciate the input.

lee n. field · June 5, 2015, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Acceptable group size for 45 Auto strike fired gun??
When you are loading for 45 Auto, what is an acceptable group size for an XD, Glock, M&P type gun?

Why do you think a "strike fired gun" will be any different?

"Striker vs. hammer" is one of those things that Internet gunboard folks obsess about, that doesn't make any difference.

Nathan · June 6, 2015, 07:37 AM

Compared to a 1911, I find a striker fired gun to have a lower level of accuracy in my experience. I feel this is due to lower trigger pull quality and poorer barrel fitting.

IMO, fine 1911 or revolver should be around 1" at 15 yards...

IIRC, my G21 shot about the same.

jmorris · June 6, 2015, 03:23 PM

You can get inaccurate firearms in any design and you can get accurate ones in any design as well.

If a person shows preference to a style that doesn't make the others better or worse for anyone except that particular person.

Nathan · June 6, 2015, 05:19 PM

Let's just agree to disagree.

My point was simply that a gun with a long mushy ~7lb pull and a barrel fit at one end will not shoot nearly as well as a gun with a SA trigger pull and a fixed or precision fit barrel. . .in my hands, at least.

Therefore, a gu that is capable of 2" 50 yd accuracy will get more extensive load development from me. A 6" 50 yd gun will require less.

That is when I get 1.5" 15yd accuracy I feel like I have got 90+% of what it will do and it is time to go into production!

Which I have done and will continue to do.

June 1, 2015, 08:40 PM	#1
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,331	Acceptable group size for 45 Auto strike fired gun?? When you are loading for 45 Auto, what is an acceptable group size for an XD, Glock, M&P type gun? My last loads from my XD gave me 1.5" at 15 yards. This was developed with 5 shot groups and confirmed with a 16 shot group. Seems pretty good to me??

June 1, 2015, 11:31 PM	#2
Bongo Boy Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2008 Location: Colo Spgs CO Posts: 517	That's a tough question--the answer just depends on so many factors. I don't think 'striker fired' should be any inherent limitation, so I'd expect that whatever a good bullseye shooter can do with a custom 1911, can probably be done with a plastic 45 as well. For me, shooting 1 1/2" groups offhand at 15 yds is the best I can do, and it doesn't happen very consistently for me. My MP45c is capable of it with relatively modest loads under a cast round nose flat point. The shooter seldom is. I guess what I'd say is that now you have your own 'acceptable standard' or, to put a more positive spin on it, you have set the bar for yourself and your loads. I just did the very same thing with 44 Magnum: same group size at the same distance. Now that load and the shooter should be able to do that 9 times out of ten or more--that's my own goal. But that was with a red dot...big difference from iron sights when you're an old geezer like me. The challenge is that, getting from 4" groups to 1 1/2" groups was brain dead simple. Getting 1 1/2" down to 1" ... well, that will likely be far more difficult. At the moment, it doesn't even seem possible (for me). __________________ NRA Benefactor Member “If I had to live my life again, I'd make the same mistakes, only sooner.” T Bankhead "I think only the authorities should have weapons." The New American Electorate

June 2, 2015, 02:26 PM	#9
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	For what? If your 1.5" is consistent in your hand, it's good. If it's off a machine rest, not so much. However, what kind of shooting you plan on doing matters. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

June 2, 2015, 07:23 PM	#15
rtpzwms Senior Member Join Date: July 6, 2010 Location: OTS Posts: 1,035	jmorris nailed it. nuff said. __________________ Experience is what you get when you don’t get what you want.

June 2, 2015, 02:55 AM	#4
noylj Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2007 Location: Between CA and NM Posts: 858	My goal with all standard handguns is <2" at 25 yards. Not all guns can do it. 1.5" off-hand at 15 yards is just fine.

June 2, 2015, 05:27 AM	#6
Fox84 Senior Member Join Date: September 25, 2012 Location: Chester Va Posts: 360	I don't think you'll better those groups. What's the recipe?

June 2, 2015, 07:45 AM	#7
jmorris Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2006 Posts: 3,077	The largest factor would be the person pulling the trigger. What is "acceptable" mean to you? Worded another way, how well can you shoot other types of handguns? If you can shoot a revolver or different semiauto into one hole at 15yds, I would say you could do better. If you shoot them about the same as the XD, I'd say the load is fine and the only thing to work on to shrink group size is you.

June 2, 2015, 09:54 AM	#8
pete2 Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 2,566	Acceptable group size is 2" at 25 yards just like any other gun except for belly guns.

June 2, 2015, 04:32 PM	#10
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,808	My Glocks are every bit as accurate as a standard out of the box 1911. They won't shoot as well as one built as a target gun or one that has been worked over.

June 2, 2015, 05:03 PM	#12
Fox84 Senior Member Join Date: September 25, 2012 Location: Chester Va Posts: 360	I still need a recipe for such tight groups. Mine are like 6 inch's at 15yds offhand.

June 2, 2015, 06:05 PM	#14
Fox84 Senior Member Join Date: September 25, 2012 Location: Chester Va Posts: 360	Thanks as I load Longshot as well.

June 3, 2015, 04:10 AM	#16
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,331	Jmorris: while I can shoot my S&W 19-3 all into the same hole at 15 yards, it is a different animal. I guess I'm wondering if 1.5" at 15 yards(rested) is a keeper for IDPA or if others are generally developing 45 auto loads that are closer to an inch with a g21, xd44, etc. I think this load is good enough, especially after I put 16 into 1.5". I'll be loading all I have into this.

June 3, 2015, 01:10 PM	#18
vaalpens Member Join Date: March 5, 2015 Posts: 44	I evaluate my handloads shooting from a rest to try and evaluate the loads, not my shooting. My target groupings are 1" at 10yds, 1.5" at 15 yards, and 2.5" at 25 yards. When I start seeing .8" at 10yds, 1.2" at 15yds and 2" at 25yds, then I start taking notice. I only reload for 9mm, 40s&w and 357sig and has the same grouping expectation for all 3 calibers. Can't see why 45acp will be any different.

June 4, 2015, 05:24 PM	#20
WVMountaineer Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2015 Posts: 330	You got a winner. The number of people who can consistently shoot 2 or 3 inch, 10 shot groups, with a stock pistol, at 25 yards isn't many. Doing it once don't make it consistent. Besides, putting 16 in that 1.5 inch grouping at 15 yards is saying you are right on par to compete with that very rare accuracy at 25. Good shooting and God Bless

June 4, 2015, 07:01 PM	#21
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,331	Thanks fellas...I appreciate the input.

June 6, 2015, 07:37 AM	#23
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,331	Compared to a 1911, I find a striker fired gun to have a lower level of accuracy in my experience. I feel this is due to lower trigger pull quality and poorer barrel fitting. IMO, fine 1911 or revolver should be around 1" at 15 yards... IIRC, my G21 shot about the same.

June 6, 2015, 03:23 PM	#24
jmorris Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2006 Posts: 3,077	You can get inaccurate firearms in any design and you can get accurate ones in any design as well. If a person shows preference to a style that doesn't make the others better or worse for anyone except that particular person.

June 6, 2015, 05:19 PM	#25
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,331	Let's just agree to disagree. My point was simply that a gun with a long mushy ~7lb pull and a barrel fit at one end will not shoot nearly as well as a gun with a SA trigger pull and a fixed or precision fit barrel. . .in my hands, at least. Therefore, a gu that is capable of 2" 50 yd accuracy will get more extensive load development from me. A 6" 50 yd gun will require less. That is when I get 1.5" 15yd accuracy I feel like I have got 90+% of what it will do and it is time to go into production! Which I have done and will continue to do.